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BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN => The Film & Book => Topic started by: Nax on January 06, 2008, 02:35:19 PM

Title: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on January 06, 2008, 02:35:19 PM
A follow on from the first BBM General Discussion topic.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 11, 2008, 02:32:55 PM
Yes, after I posted  I tried to remember  what the situation was. It crossed my mind that I may have been assuming too much. Dare I say, it may just have been something that AP didn't consider?

LOL!  Now this is the one possibility I *definitely* don't believe...  :)

It's hinted that Jack has a rising sense of self-destructiveness, and of course one of the ultimate expressions of that is unsafe sex.  I don't think he would have wanted to give anything to Ennis, but yeah he could have lied and said he got whatever from a woman.  Also, condom usage was not the norm in the early 80s, according to my memories, and Jack doesn't seem like he'd be a stickler for it. 

I think this reading is far afield, but it is not outside the realm of possibility given the story's timing, that Jack or Jack and Ennis both have contracted HIV by the final scene.  They're also arguing just as HIV is about to reshape gay identity culturally in a big way.

Its timing w/HIV just makes the last scene that much more complicated, which is why I think AP included it on purpose.  As I've said before on other threads, I think Jack and Ennis are more than just two individuals: they also embody cultural attitudes and historical situations. 

After posting the other day, I started thinking that "hell yes I been to Mexico" doesn't just mean, yes I have sex with men.  It's also Jack saying, yes I have other partners b/c you don't give me enough of you. 

Anyway: I do think Jack had multiple partners, that HIV was on the sidelines but not center stage in their relationship, and also that Jack sick and tired of the closet and getting ready to come out of the closet one way or another -- which might be why he mentioned the ranch neighbor to his parents, rather than b/c he really cared all that much for Randall. 

Just continuing this discussion of the relevance of AIDS to the story....

I'd pointed out that the timing of Jack's death took them just into the era when AIDS was becoming public knowledge - it had been named and was being reported in the news.   Well, now I've thought again and realised that the film script takes them just out of that era.    Jack dies in 1981, before AIDS was called AIDS, and before the public health campaigns.    It almost makes you wonder if that was the reason for changing the timing.  The film-makers have chosen to sidestep the issue, perhaps. 

When this issue first came up, I didn't agree that it was relevant to the story - not every story about gay men in the '80s has to be about AIDS.  But now I'm not so sure.   People tend to make the connection - gay men, early '80s, one seems to be promiscuous, one not ---> AIDS is an issue. ( I'm surprised it hasn't yet been suggested that AIDS was the cause of Jack's death  - maybe it has been suggested!).    I imagine that Annie Proulx would expect that readers might make that connection.  She's chosen a date which invites that connection. 

Somebody - was it CSI? - suggested that she might be contrasting Ennis's mainly imagined fears with the real danger which was rising up at the end of the story.    I think I could see it that way.   It's funny - Ennis would have completely missed that time of innocence pre-AIDS through his fear of a different death.

Jack and Ennis already having contracted HIV - I don't know about that.   That news clip I linked to showed the cases still being mainly in big cities.   We know there was a lot bubbling under of course, because of the gap between contracting HIV and and developing AIDS.    We don't know how promiscuous Jack was.   It sounds like he may have visited sex workers.   But by the end, Lureen says that he kept his 'friends' addresses in his head - does that indicate a few regular partners?  And we don't know exactly what sort of sex he had - the only sex act we see properly is the FNIT, where Jack first tries to get Ennis to touch him.   He didn't necessarily have anal sex with other partners.  And we don't know if Ennis had receptive anal sex with Jack, or what exactly they did.   Jack could have been infected and Ennis not.   Lureen could have been. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 11, 2008, 02:59:00 PM
Tx, Desecra for hauling the chat over here...I see it as not thematic, so much as suggestive of the background of the central theme of how love is affected by the homophobia as the undercurrent in the story.Just a clarification..I'm glad you've given thought to the irony of Ennis being terrified via a childhood incident-and missing the looming threat coming down the pike.
 I don't see it as relevant about whether or not anyone actually contracted anything; I think the point is mostly a set up of the time and place. We are given nothing to imply Jack was not at least aware if not overly cautious in his one-night stands.
After all, he leaves rodeoing because of 'other things' along with the broken bones from the broncing; its been theorized-by me, too-that the other things relate to his sexuality, and the constant threat of bashing, that was probably just part of his life, after BBM.

So it does not appear we are being told he was careless physically, beyond the drinking and the fact he gained a few pounds and went over the border, IMO.

Just some more feedback for ya. :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 11, 2008, 03:37:04 PM
Yes, just saying though that back in the '70s unprotected sex wasn't seen so much as being 'careless physically', was it?  It was after AIDS that it came to be seen that way.   So I do think Jack could have been careless, as most of us were back then.   I agree that the 'other reasons' sound like it could have been the threat of bashing (the film implies that, I think) - but I don't think Jack would have seen condom-less sex as being risky.  Not back then.

Whether anyone contracted anything - I agree, probably not relevant, but it would affect the prologue if Ennis had, I suppose.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 11, 2008, 03:42:59 PM
Yes, just saying though that back in the '70s unprotected sex wasn't seen so much as being 'careless physically', was it?  It was after AIDS that it came to be seen that way.   So I do think Jack could have been careless, as most of us were back then.   I agree that the 'other reasons' sound like it could have been the threat of bashing (the film implies that, I think) - but I don't think Jack would have seen condom-less sex as being risky.  Not back then.

Whether anyone contracted anything - I agree, probably not relevant, but it would affect the prologue if Ennis had, I suppose.

Well, its true, with penicillin around, that the threat of insanity from the ravages of syphillis had pretty much disappeared, no arguments there. So it WOULD be mostly STDs in the 70's. I guess also by careless, I mean in general, endangering himself, too....but you're right, the threat of disease would not be as imminent prior to the actual onset of the disease in general circles.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 11, 2008, 03:50:53 PM
Yes, I don't mean so much the actual risk - there was hepatitis, etc. - but the perceived risk. 

I'm thinking more that it was looming over them - not that either contracted it.    It was another possible result of Ennis's refusal to be with Jack - if they could have been together they'd have been safe from what ended up being such a huge, scary, tragic and terrible thing.   It may have occurred to Ennis, later - the relative risks that you mentioned. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 11, 2008, 04:12:24 PM
Oh my, the prologue is already so incredibly devastating,
must we now give poor Ennis AIDS?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 11, 2008, 04:54:33 PM
I don't think so - I think he probably wouldn't have it.   But after Jack's death, he'd be hearing about it when he turned on the news.   I'm just wondering how it would fit with his conflicted feelings about their sexuality and his guilt and regret.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: o2binla on January 11, 2008, 05:43:33 PM
I don't think Jack or Ennis had HIV -- but the story's timing makes it not impossible that Jack would have come into contact with it.  SF was presumably a much more dangerous place re HIV than Mexico or the Midwest in 1983, but that sure doesn't mean it wasn't around. 

It's been very interesting reading everyone's responses, though I can go much further with this than to notice it and surmise that it means _something_ .  The timing surely can't be accidental, yet once again AP refuses to get concrete.  And it is more a story about tragic love than a response to an epidemic.  But if the epidemic is a major factor for the repressed group from the '80s on...?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 11, 2008, 05:55:33 PM
I don't think Jack or Ennis had HIV -- but the story's timing makes it not impossible that Jack would have come into contact with it.  SF was presumably a much more dangerous place re HIV than Mexico or the Midwest in 1983, but that sure doesn't mean it wasn't around. 

It's been very interesting reading everyone's responses, though I can go much further with this than to notice it and surmise that it means _something_ .  The timing surely can't be accidental, yet once again AP refuses to get concrete.  And it is more a story about tragic love than a response to an epidemic.  But if the epidemic is a major factor for the repressed group from the '80s on...?

The timing may not be accidental at all. It may very well be that the story is timed to specifically avoid this sort of speculation thus moving away from the central themes.
There were already a plethora of excellent AIDS literary and theatrical explorations of the epidemic when this was written:

"The Normal Heart"
"Beat the Sunset"
"Long Time Companion"
Love!Valour!Compassion!
and the AIDS play to end all "Angels in America"

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 12, 2008, 02:36:49 AM
Yes, I have a feeling that the film deliberately avoids it, by moving Jack's death to 1981.   The book seems to deliberately just touch on it though - why not 1981 in the book? 

I'm now thinking more that the timing is about how it would affect Ennis - Jack's death is brought into a period when AIDS was in the news.   Ennis would be hearing about it while grieving for Jack.   And the horror of AIDS did get people talking about sex more, I think.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on January 12, 2008, 05:58:10 AM
FWIW ages ago someone suggested that the spots on Ennis's hand in the last scene with Jack may have been lesions, and that the added line "It's cause of you that I'm like this..." may have been an AIDS reference. I disagree, incidentally. I think the marks are a nod to the sparks and lies flying upwards and burning their faces and hands.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 12, 2008, 10:06:49 AM
I agree, Mini-I said that myself. It makes sense, all those campfires, and working around animals, with branding equpment and such...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2008, 10:16:10 AM
I'm repeating myself, but the discussion is back.

I've always thought one reason for the timing was to keep AIDS off the table.  Also, Jack's relationship w/ Randall is a good reason why Jack wouldn't have been exposed.  This assumes he's having sex only w/Randall and Ennis, a reasonable assumption given how important Randall has become.

I always thought they were age spots on Ennis's hands.  He's spent a lot of time out in the sun.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: wintersweet on January 14, 2008, 11:29:35 AM
I believe the scars on Ennis's hand were actually the wounds Heath got during the shooting period, they were not the makeup. In some of the scenes, we can see the wounds were quite new. If we can track the healing progress through out the film, I believe we can find out the sequence of shooting schedule.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 14, 2008, 02:10:12 PM
That's interesting and I'll look for it.  I don't know shooting, but I'm surprised his hands would be injured in the process.

Until now, the only thing like that I'd spotted was before and after Heath had his ears pierced.  For example, not pierced at the bar, and pierced at Jack's parents' house.  I don't think they were pierced at the motel.

And Heath has beautiful ears.  In addition to having a smile that would light up the dark side of the moon.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: wintersweet on January 14, 2008, 03:14:29 PM
I don't think it was injury, might just be bad bug bites or poked by the twigs,etc. Not big deal at all, but certainly added  something to the  close scrutiny.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 14, 2008, 09:17:16 PM
But for them to not hide the, makes me think a statement is being made-I vote they are the way most ranchers' hands look, not only form the sun, but from campfires and branding animals-and anything else involving fire......like maybe nookie with Jack Twist.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: wintersweet on January 14, 2008, 10:50:12 PM
Yes, I think it just worked into the situation, even accidentally. Somehow the tattoo on Heath's wrist wasn't covered up either.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 15, 2008, 09:22:43 AM
I hate to contradict myself, but so be it.  My earlier theory that Jack wasn't exposed to AIDS because he was having sex only w/ Randall and Ennis has a problem.  If Jack was killed, I thought the most likely cause was that he'd made a pass at the wrong guy.  This was something of a bookend w/ the pass he made at Jimbo in the bar.  But if Jack was making passes at guys, then he was still having sex w/ strangers in 1982, or trying to.

This movie has a lot of blanks to fill in.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on January 15, 2008, 11:19:31 AM
I hate to contradict myself, but so be it.  My earlier theory that Jack wasn't exposed to AIDS because he was having sex only w/ Randall and Ennis has a problem.  If Jack was killed, I thought the most likely cause was that he'd made a pass at the wrong guy.  This was something of a bookend w/ the pass he made at Jimbo in the bar.  But if Jack was making passes at guys, then he was still having sex w/ strangers in 1982, or trying to.

This movie has a lot of blanks to fill in.

In the SS Jack isn't just sitting around waiting for his get-togethers with Ennis and just because we SEE only his failed attempt with Jimbo, and ONE trip to Mexico and the intro to a POSSIBLE relationship with Randall doesn't mean those were the only times he didn't "roll his own." (We don't see him eating dinner with anyone but Ennis, except for the one Thanksgiving scene, but we know he ate.) Also, even if you believe those were the only contacts Jack had that doesn't mean Senor and Randall were unexposed to HIV. I agree with whomever that the story was timed to keep AIDS ou of it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on January 15, 2008, 11:45:03 AM
I agree that we are supposed to make the assumption Jack has more opportunities than Jimbo and one trip to Mexico.  We even have Randall making the pass at Jack -- the embodiment of Annie Proulx' ranch foreman's "wife" story.

Either way guys, in my opinion looking for meaning in the lack of AIDS influence in the story is barking up a very remote tree.  It would have been the farthest thing from Ennis' mind.  Even if he heard about it he wouldn't have feared it.  He was in such denial.

Is the timing of the story a manipulation on Annie Proulx' part?  Well, maybe, except IMO it is more than justified, since so many of us can actually remember adult life without AIDS. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 15, 2008, 12:34:47 PM
I kind of agree on Ennis not applying it to himself during Jack's lifetime.   I just think it's interesting that after Jack's death (and after Ennis acknowledging Jack's sexuality, knowing for sure about other men and starting to accept it) AIDS would be more in the news.   I agree that he could avoid it up until that point, but afterwards .... I just wonder if he connected it to Jack.   I like CSI's point about the real fear of AIDS.  It's an irony that had Jack lived, if they'd gone on the way they were going it might have been a real risk for both of them, whereas if Ennis had consented to live with Jack earlier it wouldn't have been a risk.-
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 15, 2008, 06:26:10 PM
There have been approximately 225 AIDS cases reported in Wyoming since the outbreak of the epidemic.  There were  none reported in 1983.  I don't know what radio station listened to or what newspapers he might have read. but AIDS was not big news in Wyoming and Ennis was not , it seems to me, the inquisitive sort.  Christ, he thought so little of himself and was so depressed,he peed in his sink.  I think we are perhaps looking for things that don't exist.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: wintersweet on January 15, 2008, 07:55:23 PM
I agree with you, garyd.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: chapeaugris on January 16, 2008, 12:08:44 AM
In the spring of 2006, when I was seeking out every smidgen of info on the story and the film, I read a little interview with AP in which she said that she decided at the outset to have the story span 20 years. She wanted it to begin when the west and the economics of ranching  were changing and said that the early sixties was the latest possible start date. She did not say so but the implication was clear that AIDS would have been too complicating a factor. I have searched for this interview ever since the subject came up on this or another thread sometime back but cant  even remember if it was online. So you will just have to take my word for it.  :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 16, 2008, 12:28:54 AM
I didn't realise that AIDS didn't get to be news in Wyoming - I'm used to national news in the UK, and had just assumed that the whole of the US got the news.    Over here, it was big news after 1983 - I do remember people talking about it a lot.  There were demos of how to put condoms on on TV, etc., and there seemed to be changes in the way casual sex was shown in popular culture  (I remember that in the next Bond film, Bond was monogamous) - if I remember correctly we all had a letter through the door about it.   It would have been impossible to miss it here, but if there wasn't publicity in Wyoming, I suppose Ennis could have missed it altogether - I hadn't even thought of that. 

Thanks for the info, Chapeaugris.   I feel that the timing did sidestep the issue before Jack's death - I really don't think it would be something Jack would have considered much.    But at the same time, it puts Ennis's slow-dawning awareness and acceptance right into the AIDS era.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: afhickman on January 16, 2008, 03:34:45 AM
I can't find anywhere else to post this, so I'll try it here.  Eric Patterson has written an insightful article on Brokeback, the book and film, that is available to read on the GLBTQ encyclopedia site: http://www.glbtq.com/sfeatures/pattersonbrokeback.html.  It's been so long, I don't remember how to make that a live link, but, if you can cut and paste, you'll get there.  I don't agree with all of Patterson's conclusions, but his article is an ambitious attempt to place Brokeback within the context of gay history and present-day attitudes.  Both the short story and film continue to provoke meaningful discussion.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on January 16, 2008, 03:52:55 AM
That link works fine. Thanks for bringing a really thoughtful article to my attention.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on January 16, 2008, 08:47:22 AM
I can't find anywhere else to post this, so I'll try it here.  Eric Patterson has written an insightful article on Brokeback, the book and film, that is available to read on the GLBTQ encyclopedia site: http://www.glbtq.com/sfeatures/pattersonbrokeback.html.  It's been so long, I don't remember how to make that a live link, but, if you can cut and paste, you'll get there.  I don't agree with all of Patterson's conclusions, but his article is an ambitious attempt to place Brokeback within the context of gay history and present-day attitudes.  Both the short story and film continue to provoke meaningful discussion.


It is a good article, and fyi, Eric Patterson has agreed to do an interview for our Daily Sheet.  We may even ask him to do a live author chat in books if he is willing.   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 16, 2008, 08:56:08 AM
I think the point is maybe being missed..AIDS has nothing to do with what Ennis thinks-but it does have to do with the era in which the story is ending. That is the real point-it begins in 63 and ends almost 20 years later.
'This is the era of America losing its innocence, IMO. Starting with Kennedy's assassination..In that light, I think there is a bit of a parallel with Ennis's revelation at Lighting Flat.
That is the connection I see; its purely metaphorical and only a suggestion. I don't think it plays a part, beyond Jack being more aware than Ennis, and perhaps being more motivated to become more monogamous, than he was earlier. Purely a practical suggestion. :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on January 16, 2008, 08:56:39 AM
In the spring of 2006, when I was seeking out every smidgen of info on the story and the film, I read a little interview with AP in which she said that she decided at the outset to have the story span 20 years. She wanted it to begin when the west and the economics of ranching  were changing and said that the early sixties was the latest possible start date. She did not say so but the implication was clear that AIDS would have been too complicating a factor. I have searched for this interview ever since the subject came up on this or another thread sometime back but cant  even remember if it was online. So you will just have to take my word for it.  :)


Well -- my .02 is that I just really don't find this a burning question in my mind about Ennis and Jack's relationship.  There was a time in the past century w/o AIDS, and then AIDS became part of the public consciousness.  I am fine to leave it at that. 

There are some things I do long for.  I long for more displays of affection by Ennis in the movie (the SS had them... "little darlin" and the bright sparks.)  Um -- I long for Ennis to contact by telephone after the last scene on the mountain, before Jack died.  I long for Ennis to ask Jack to stick around for a couple of days until the girls went home Sunday night, after the divorce.

I do not long for either Ennis or Jack to ponder the dilemma of AIDS.  It just seems beyond what the story is about.

For me the whole issue is kind of like those "deleted scenes" we have been reading about in TDS -- for the most part, we are really glad they didn't make it into the movie.  What if James Schamus wrote a scene where Lureen says at the breakfast table "honey, it says here in the paper homo-sexuals are dying from some strange disease!  Aren't you glad we don't have to worry about that?"

And then Jack would choke on his Texan coffee.  "What?  oh sure honey... say I wonder how people catch that, anyway?"


snip!!! cut!!! EDIT!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: afhickman on January 16, 2008, 09:00:08 AM
I can't find anywhere else to post this, so I'll try it here.  Eric Patterson has written an insightful article on Brokeback, the book and film, that is available to read on the GLBTQ encyclopedia site: http://www.glbtq.com/sfeatures/pattersonbrokeback.html.  It's been so long, I don't remember how to make that a live link, but, if you can cut and paste, you'll get there.  I don't agree with all of Patterson's conclusions, but his article is an ambitious attempt to place Brokeback within the context of gay history and present-day attitudes.  Both the short story and film continue to provoke meaningful discussion.


It is a good article, and fyi, Eric Patterson has agreed to do an interview for our Daily Sheet.  We may even ask him to do a live author chat in books if he is willing.   :)

I would love to ask him a few questions about his article.  Thanks.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 16, 2008, 09:05:55 AM
A universal reaction to the film -- at least among my crowd -- is the desire for more affection in general and that they should have embraced and kissed at the beginning of their third trip.  And at least the hug was filmed -- we've seen stills of it.  I haven't seen a still of a kiss.

Including that clip would have extended the movie by maybe 10-30 seconds.  Such a pity.

And the scene feels awkward w/o that greeting.

I realize Ang Lee is a better director than I am, but he made a mistake here that was so easy to fix.  But if you can't fix it ...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 16, 2008, 10:40:25 AM
I didn't realise that AIDS didn't get to be news in Wyoming - I'm used to national news in the UK, and had just assumed that the whole of the US got the news.    Over here, it was big news after 1983 - I do remember people talking about it a lot.  There were demos of how to put condoms on on TV, etc., and there seemed to be changes in the way casual sex was shown in popular culture  (I remember that in the next Bond film, Bond was monogamous) - if I remember correctly we all had a letter through the door about it.   It would have been impossible to miss it here, but if there wasn't publicity in Wyoming, I suppose Ennis could have missed it altogether - I hadn't even thought of that. 

Thanks for the info, Chapeaugris.   I feel that the timing did sidestep the issue before Jack's death - I really don't think it would be something Jack would have considered much.    But at the same time, it puts Ennis's slow-dawning awareness and acceptance right into the AIDS era.

Des, just for an attempt at clarification.  I used the word "reported".  By that I meant "reported to the U.S. Center for Disease Control".  I have to believe that by 1983, some media reporting regarding the disease occurred in Wyoming.  Certainly, by the time of the prologue, whenever that is, ;D there would have been news reports.  I, of course, have no idea by what method Ennis obtained news of the day.  My guess is that the Ennis's local paper had yet to do an expose and neither had the local country/western station.  I also just assume that Ennis was not a devotee of National Public Radio or "Frontline". 
Furthermore, it my understanding that AP is a trained historian in the French Annales School of historical research and reporting. This specific discipline places emphasis upon geography, material culture, and zeitgeist.  AIDS, at least until a good while subsequent to Jack's death, would not have been an element affecting the Annales historical context of the period examined in the story. 
Consequently, I do have difficulty in believing that the specter of AIDS had any affect whatsoever on the motivation or rationale for the behavior of either Jack or Ennis. 
As always, IMO and with the caveat that I have been so VERY wrong before and can and will be again! :-[
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 16, 2008, 11:13:49 AM
Thanks for the clarfication - yes, I agree with you about Jack.    He died too early - a year or too later and he might have been more aware, but I don't imagine much had filtered through at that point.   Ennis, though (I'm talking about after Jack's death)  ... maybe he could have missed it, or maybe he could have heard about it and it just didn't register.    One thing about the AIDS publicity is that it kind of made homosexuality more 'out' in a way - sex in general had to be talked about.    I wonder if Ennis would have been exposed to more positive images after 1983 (ironically). 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 16, 2008, 11:30:28 AM
It is of course, possible, that during the ensuing years, Ennis was exposed to a more expansive view of homosexuality. 
There was, also, a multitude of truly negative publicity initially..."the gay plague" etc.  So initially it caused more fear, I think, than understanding.
In addition, it is difficult to discount that Matthew Shepard was murdered in 1998 in Laramie. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 16, 2008, 12:48:39 PM
Yes, I posted earlier about the 'gay plague' wonder if Ennis's fear would lead him to buy into that 'judgement' in a way.   I agree that Matthew Shepard's death would confirm his own fears, but not necessarily his own homophobia - the general public feeling was outrage and anger at his killers, wasn't it?   Ennis didn't get to see that when Earl was killed.   He only saw his father's approval of the killing.  That would be after the prologue though.   

I think Ennis is shown as isolated from his society - but actually his society was moving on.   The progress we see in the prologue was internal, I think, but I wonder how much the changes in society would have affected him.                 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 16, 2008, 12:58:25 PM
I suppose what I am trying to say is that  I have serious doubts that "Wyoming society" was moving on or changing in any profound way that might have had an affect on Ennis
In the final analysis, he probably learns some things about himself, Jack, and their relationship but he is still the guy who's idea of traveling (which metaphorically means so much more than just travel) is moving his hand around the coffee pot.

There certainly may be a story incorporating your thoughts, but I don't think AP wrote it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 16, 2008, 01:28:54 PM
Well, I think she wrote in the sense that Ennis seems to be shown as cut off from society a little.   It's interesting that there is very little mention of the 'outside world' (current events), in contrast to another story in the collection where the characters' lives are tied in to what's going on around them.    There are references to the draft, and the Thresher early on, and later we see that Ennis is affected by economic changes, but apart from that there's very little ... we're aware of the passage of time over 20 years, but barely aware of the massive outside changes going on between the '60s and the '80s.    So Ennis seems to exist in his own world, and that gives much more power to his father's message.

By the prologue, he still seems to be a little cut off, and the book is vague about the date.   It's maybe the '90s by that time.   As I mentioned, I think the changes we see in Ennis are internal - his own gradual working through of what Jack meant to him.    So it's just speculation about how things like AIDS and Matthew Shepard would have affected him - I take the point that he might not even have heard of these things, being more cut off than most people.    I tend to think he would have heard of them, but it's interesting to imagine how he might have applied them to himself.   Do you think Annie Proulx is sidestepping those issues altogether - almost as if she's setting Ennis in an alternate universe where the world continues not to change around him (as it apparently doesn't change during the 20 years - although we know it did, and others - Jack, Alma, probably noticed it - I think the film makes that point), or not change as far as he's concerned anyway?   In that case, all the progress is internal?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on January 16, 2008, 01:41:08 PM
Yes, I see your point.  Ennis is certainly not illiterate.  He liked school.  He was up enough on current affairs to chat about them with Jack on the mountain.
(Of course, he only read catalogues of some sort)
So, who knows? 
I honestly believe, however, that Ennis, no matter what his fate subsequent to the prologue, remains pretty much an island.

I can much more easily rectify your observations regarding post-Jack Ennis with movie Ennis than I can with SS Ennis.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 16, 2008, 03:28:16 PM
One thing about how AIDS might or might not affect Ennis after Jack's death, that I thought of reading gary's and Des's posts
;
We have no evidence he ever came to consider himself 'gay'-so the whole AIDS thing may have been something he was dimly aware of, but kept at a distance from himself..and keep in mind, he said' one's' enough' so he never had cause to worry about anyone else after Jack.
I could see Ennis easily thinking, one had to be gay to catch it...


My guess is if this ever did cross his mind,  or he had a worry about Jack, he'd dismiss it; and I doubt his family would discuss it with him. They had no reason to, he was pretty successfully closeted. His relationship with the all-kowing Alma Jr, is from the movie, mostly.

 I do think for Ennis it is rather irrelevant-but for the viewer, it can seem highly ironic, given his terror over the tire ironing that never happened to him. Like I said, its wallpaper, muted and in the background, in terms of this story.

...and how ironic is it, that the relationship spanned the era of 'free love'-when it was hardly that.

[to clarify, I'm speaking of the homophobia, not anything they actually did in bed together-when there was a bed...]
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: o2binla on January 16, 2008, 10:38:18 PM
and how ironic is it, that the realtionship spanned the era of 'free love'-when it was hardly that.

I generally agree, though have always enjoyed that the reunion takes place during the Summer of Love -- as if even two closeted men deep in the heartland could not help but be swept up...  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 17, 2008, 07:21:08 AM
and how ironic is it, that the realtionship spanned the era of 'free love'-when it was hardly that.

I generally agree, though have always enjoyed that the reunion takes place during the Summer of Love -- as if even two closeted men deep in the heartland could not help but be swept up...  :D
Of course! 1967..let it all hang out, man.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on January 17, 2008, 08:36:45 AM
I think that is the best article I have read about Brokeback Mountain, and I've read a few. Thank you for the link.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on January 17, 2008, 09:18:02 PM
His views on the inclusion of SNIT were most interesting, I thought.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 18, 2008, 12:22:01 AM
Yes, and he's noticed that Ennis's concern about their relationship after the FNIT (in the film) is a departure from the story.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: afhickman on January 18, 2008, 09:33:29 AM
For anyone who's interested, the American Film Institute is doing another list.  This time they provide a list of 500 movies slotted into ten different categories and ask for votes.  Voting is done by mail.  The only category that might possibly be suitable for BBM is "western," and it didn't make the cut.  However, you are allowed to write in titles as well.  "The Last Picture Show" made the list--why not BBM?

Go to:

http://connect.afi.com/site/DocServer/10top10.pdf?docID=361

for the ballot.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on January 22, 2008, 02:59:09 PM
My god, my son just called with the news that heath ledger was found dead and I didn't believe him but it is on tmz's website. Just a brief spot with very little info. Awful.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2008, 03:02:11 PM
I just heard it on the radio, and am in tears. 
Title: HEATH LEDGER DEAD!!
Post by: Rosewood on January 22, 2008, 03:02:53 PM
Horrible, dreadful, tragic news.
I've just heard on the news that Heath Ledger has been found
dead in his NY apartment. A possible drug related death.

More details will be forthcoming.

I am in complete shock.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 22, 2008, 03:04:08 PM
Thank you for letting us know.   Very sad.   Poor Matilda (and anyone else close to him).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mountain boy on January 22, 2008, 03:04:12 PM
Unbelievable ... So sorry ... thank you Heath for all you did.
Title: Heath Ledger dies
Post by: alma on January 22, 2008, 03:09:32 PM
I'm in complete shock!!!!! :(

I can't let myself really accept it. I had to come here right away. Waiting for more details. How horrible.

Here's an article:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/actor-heath-ledger-is-found-dead/ (http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/actor-heath-ledger-is-found-dead/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kaboyz on January 22, 2008, 03:09:38 PM
THIS IS TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!  OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Aile on January 22, 2008, 03:11:38 PM
I'm sittiing here shaking like crazy, how can this be? It is just too sad and terrible for words.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on January 22, 2008, 03:14:10 PM
I can't believe it.
It must be a mistake.
I just can't believe it.
What horrible news.
My daughter emailed me and my immediate reaction was:
IT CAN'T BE!!

I don't think I'll ever get over this.
It is just TOO sad and too tragic.
This a kid, for God's sake - with his whole life ahead of him!
What the fuck happened?

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Groch on January 22, 2008, 03:15:18 PM
So very very sad, and unexpected.

I do not know what to say.

Heath was often mentioned as someone who grew temendously as an actor. His pre-reviews as Joker in the new Batman were outstanding.

What a loss to his family, and to all of us who loved his work.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on January 22, 2008, 03:16:07 PM
It is just too cruel.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2008, 03:25:59 PM
Why wasn't it just a close call?

I hesitate to search for analogies, but James Dean's death comes to mind.  I think Heath was a better actor and it's been a long time since I've seen a James Dean movie.

But the magnitude of the loss seems comparable.

I was so looking forward to watching Heath's movies for the rest of my life (I'm twice his age), but that was taken away.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on January 29, 2008, 01:53:31 PM
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,23663,23131105-5015787,00.html

"Fortunately, because the film deals with magic, there is a way of turning Heath into other people, and then use stills and computer generated imagery (CGI)."

(I wasn't sure where to post this)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on January 29, 2008, 01:54:49 PM
Thanks lislis.  I hope they find a way to use the Heath footage, but I feel sorry for the director, who will not be able to make the movie he set out to make.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on February 03, 2008, 05:23:03 PM
Here is a link to a new article by Eric Patterson, titled "Elegy for Heath Ledger: His Imperishible Achievement in Bokeback Mountain"

http://rowmanblog.typepad.com/

excerpt

There isn't time for such extensive analytical discussion, though of course it should and will come eventually. It isn't necessary now; all one really needs to do is to watch Brokeback once more and feel his extraordinary performance. Of course, one of the effects of the endless parodies and "jokes" about the film ever since its release has been to prevent appreciation of it, to seek to neutralize its beauty and power by burying it in ridicule. Can one imagine such continuous abuse being directed at a film about any other minority group, at, say, Schindler's List or Do the Right Thing? But for those who aren't poisoned with hatred of men who love men, and who can watch the film with open hearts, it speaks for itself.


This is a great article, take a look.


Eric Patterson is associate professor of American studies and American literature at Hobart and William Smith Colleges. He is the author of an upcoming book On Brokeback Mountain: Meditations about Masculinity, Fear, and Love in the Story and the Film.  TDS is going to review his book soon.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: KZ on February 03, 2008, 08:31:00 PM
Quote
Of course, one of the effects of the endless parodies and "jokes" about the film ever since its release has been to prevent appreciation of it, to seek to neutralize its beauty and power by burying it in ridicule. Can one imagine such continuous abuse being directed at a film about any other minority group, at, say, Schindler's List or Do the Right Thing? But for those who aren't poisoned with hatred of men who love men, and who can watch the film with open hearts, it speaks for itself.

Bravo!  It's been my contention for years that "queer ridicule" (or worse...and sometimes much worse) is the only prejudice still sanctioned, even promoted, in all Western cultures.  Sad to say, gays are the one target of scorn around which diverse social elements can still rally with impunity: from the most conservative organized-religion followers to "hip" comedians.
   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: cazzyj on February 12, 2008, 04:19:04 PM
That article was so wonderful!!  Thanks for posting this!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on February 12, 2008, 08:31:16 PM
Three weeks to the day....it hardly seems believable, even now....If feels as if an eternity has gone by since last we saw Heath looking rather funky on the set of his last movie. How tempting it would be to just go back there and hang out in one's mind  for as long as one needed to-pre Jan 22, 2008.
Our very own Black Tuesday.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on February 13, 2008, 04:34:33 PM
The "Elegy for HL" article is outstanding.  Eric Patterson really gets it. 

I passed over the laments about unkind comments people made about Heath right after he died, and the stuff about homophobia and society, and concentrated on the large majority of the article which discussed Heath's acting.

The author says that Ennis avoided eye contact w/ Jack until the campfire scene where he talks about himself.  I don't think I ever noticed that. 

I really liked his comment -- and it's not just because the author agreed with me -- that SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on February 14, 2008, 12:22:44 PM
~ SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
OH yeah.  It's definitely the most romantic  per second - it's very brief, isn't it!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on February 14, 2008, 12:36:16 PM
~ SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
OH yeah.  It's definitely the most romantic  per second - it's very brief, isn't it!

Long enough to reflect on ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on February 14, 2008, 01:50:21 PM
Long enough to gasp and then hold your breath!  I had not seen anything like it before.  It is still remarkable to me, even as I watch it now.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on February 14, 2008, 03:20:54 PM
Wow! I was just at the grocery store and out of the corner of my eye caught sight of this week's TV Guide with the Jake Gyllenhaal cover.
I about broke my neck trying to get to the stand to pick up a copy... and when I took a closer look, it was George Clooney. The resemblance was uncanny. If Jake continues to mature along those lines, he'll be gorgeous until he's 110!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Jack_Nasty on February 14, 2008, 05:22:39 PM
~ SNIT was one of the most romantic scenes ever filmed.
OH yeah.  It's definitely the most romantic  per second - it's very brief, isn't it!

Long enough to reflect on ;)

"NEVER ENOUGH TIME, NEVER ENOUGH"

 (love the quotes from the film).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on February 15, 2008, 08:53:57 AM
I've said it before but this is a good place to say it again.  In FNIT and SNIT, I always see myself as Jack, except for when Ennis strokes Jack's chest.  Only then do I feel like Ennis.

SNIT grabs me and pulls me in like nothing else.  I'm kissing Ennis the best I know how.

Don't I wish.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: dlc on February 21, 2008, 03:32:46 AM

Not sure if this has been posted or if this is even the best place to post it but ran across an interesting article this morning. 

Heath on Ennis:  http://www.ebar.com/arts/art_article.php?sec=film&article=465
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on February 21, 2008, 08:19:23 AM
That is a great link dlc, dated today.  thanks
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on February 21, 2008, 01:02:33 PM
Any little snippet of Heath's thought re Ennis is always interesting.  Thanks.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 01, 2008, 01:20:19 PM
On a new topic:

I love the short story and the film, but I wonder how well-suited Ennis's intricate denials and Jack's various and lenghty suffering would have been to a full-length novel? so much detail we are left to guess and assume..I know that is part of the interesting trick of the short story, and its maintained many of these threads for over two years now-but I just wonder. The story is a winner, hands down. The most drawn-out component, the end, is an exercise in revelation-but how interesting to see it for ourselves, as they go along, and then anticipate the realizations by the characters, later.

Emotionally, the wallop was much greater in the SS, as we discover things Ennis knew, but was not enligthened about-so he gets the point, as we hear things for the first time. We are stunned along with him....no mercy.

Just wondering what the impact of a novel-length version would've been. Minus all the tight efficiencies of AP's language-or simply offering more of the same??
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on March 01, 2008, 01:46:22 PM
The film expanded the short story TO a novel.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 01, 2008, 04:47:56 PM
That's an interesting way to look at it..might we say the epic became an epic? I always think AP's imagery as an epic feel to it, form Ennis waking up at red dawn; to the right keys turning the tumblers; to the sun beating against the boy's bed.

Its so expansive and all encompassing, in so few words.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: freetraveller on March 02, 2008, 06:35:48 AM
I certainly feel the SS had in itself the potential of being expanded to a full-length novel, even without being adapted to a film medium.
Not only because it encompasses a 20-yr period of time, but because of the language and imagery, and also the potential of some of the secondary characters being fleshed out more.
Not to mention the possibility of introducing more narrative point of views, or expand Jack's POV at least.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want the essential message of the SS to be diluted if the story was to be expanded.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 02, 2008, 10:44:45 AM
That's a very good point, FT-and it is illustrated by the difference in book and film-necessary for the film version, different media, diff detail required. No two versions an be exactly the same and as a result, the message may alter, or in some cases, suffer.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on March 02, 2008, 01:18:43 PM
Interesting discussion, guys.
Mind if I add my two cents?

My feeling has always been that had BBM been lengthened into novel form, we
would have lost the 'immediacy' of the moment so prevalent in the s/s.

For instance, in a full-length novel, I'm thinking that AP would have had to stretch
the story to include many extraneous factors that would, perhaps, have taken us
on differeing highways and byways and away from Jack and Ennis and what I most
wanted to know: were these two EVER going to be happy?

I'm thinking that AP would have had to have given us more points of view.
A tactic I, personally, am not very fond of unless done very, very well.
(I suppose she would have done it as well as anyone, but still, I worry that
it would have thrown me off the main story.)

She would have had to have fleshed out Alma and Lureen and the parents
and maybe even the grocer and then the the kids and the years in between
and the insipient misery and maybe, even, the growing up. The formation of
character would have had to have been filled out with more detail and then
the landscape and its overpowering grip on these sorts of people: the poverty,
the hardscrabble lives, the reason why Jack 'loved a small dog' and all the rest
of it. Not to mention: what really happened to Jack? Who was the ranch
foreman? Did he really exist? God Forbid, we might even have gotten
his point of view...No, it is too horrible to contemplate. ;D

I'm satisfied that we got the BBM we needed. The story existed to be put down in
short story form. Or vice versa.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 02, 2008, 05:55:26 PM
As you wrote it, I agree...She made it what it was, a short story. It is true though that it lends itself to fleshing out, if only because of the fascinating twists and turns at the end. Its a matter of preference, I think. But yes, the original work will always stand, IMO, as perfection. Even when I think of what I would have liked to see more of, I realize it would affect another scene in the story..kind of like taking one med for one thing, and having it screw up something else.
AP's balance is masterful.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 02, 2008, 07:55:23 PM
She would have had to have fleshed out Alma and Lureen and the parents
and maybe even the grocer and then the the kids and the years in between
and the insipient misery and maybe, even, the growing up. The formation of
character would have had to have been filled out with more detail and then
the landscape and its overpowering grip on these sorts of people: the poverty,
the hardscrabble lives, the reason why Jack 'loved a small dog' and all the rest
of it. Not to mention: what really happened to Jack? Who was the ranch
foreman? Did he really exist? God Forbid, we might even have gotten
his point of view...No, it is too horrible to contemplate. ;D

I'm satisfied that we got the BBM we needed. The story existed to be put down in
short story form. Or vice versa.

ANNIE PROULX POSTCARDS SPOILER
Well, actually, for those of us who read Postcards, waiting, hoping and expecting to find out what really happened to Frankie, (apparently murdered in the opening paragraphs of the novel) I can attest that Annie Proulx may never tell you, even after a full novel's worth of reading and guessing.


I tend to think we have no choice but to leave perfection alone.

However, the idea of different points of view -- Actually, POV did break a couple of times in BBM (Jack had not been rolling his own -- from J's POV in the motel room) and the dozy embrace scene is entirely from J's POV -- there are a couple more --

even alma gets a couple P's of V, when she thanks "what you like to do don't make too many babies..."

I dunno, maybe even Aguirre, although I think technically we did have his POV when we knew he watched through the binoculars for ten minutes.

I think probably this is an example of POV changes that are very well done.

It could have been a longer story but OMG Jack and Ennis already seem more real to us than almost any other fictional characters.

By leaving so much unsaid, Annie left us with unlimited slash scenarios.  :o
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on March 03, 2008, 02:51:50 AM
Well, actually, for those of us who read Postcards, waiting, hoping and expecting to find out what really happened to Frankie, (apparently murdered in the opening paragraphs of the novel) I can attest that Annie Proulx may never tell you, even after a full novel's worth of reading and guessing.
~snip~
By leaving so much unsaid, Annie left us with unlimited slash scenarios.  :o

So I shouldn't bother finishing Postcards? Thank goodness. It was heavy going. And I'll keep reading slash  ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 03, 2008, 05:13:32 AM
Postcards to me was a rather pia to read...It really required effort. IMO,no one of her best...

But as to her best, in BBM, what she does not say says everything, and that takes real talent.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 03, 2008, 05:25:49 AM
I was just thinking: How many  hetero love stories have you  read where one of the couple does not accept their love for the other, on a fundamental basis? How unique really is BBM in that light? I think its pretty damned unique...Off hand, I'd say most love stories achieve acknowledgement from both parties, even if they end tragically. Its never about how they feel for each other.

BBM is all about that....It's so clearly about not exactly unrequited love, like Remains of the Day; Jack and Ennis do make love and meet up over the rest of their lives, until Jack dies...but, its the quality of the relationship that fails. The outside pressures, unless you think it was the tire iron in the end, never come to bear on them in the way Ennis expected. So the stress is mostly coming from within-from him.

I think this is the factor that makes this so unique-there have been other gay love stories, and just to think of one example: Front Runner. The coach is as tough as they come, but he treats Billy like gold, in private, basically. He even has a moment or two of public revelation in the story. The things that happen in that story are driven by the external social component-it is not about them and their feelings for each other. Those feelings are made clear throughout the story, with some expected reservations.

But BBM...society never gets it's whack at J and E, beyond the private outtings of Aguirre and Alma (unless you think Jack got TI'd in the end...). This is just so clear to me. It shows without a doubt, who the real enemy is in the story-internalized homophobia.

And it is at age 9 that society takes its whack at Ennis and produces that hphobia.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 03, 2008, 08:07:09 AM
Well, actually, for those of us who read Postcards, waiting, hoping and expecting to find out what really happened to Frankie, (apparently murdered in the opening paragraphs of the novel) I can attest that Annie Proulx may never tell you, even after a full novel's worth of reading and guessing.
~snip~
By leaving so much unsaid, Annie left us with unlimited slash scenarios.  :o

So I shouldn't bother finishing Postcards? Thank goodness. It was heavy going. And I'll keep reading slash  ;)


ooooops, should have designatee SPOILER!  Sorry about that.

I would recommend finishing the book, or at least skipping to the end.  ;)  After all, you still don't know whether Loyal finds love again.

Oh, it just came to me what the BBM novel would be about --  :P
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on March 03, 2008, 10:48:35 AM
I was just thinking: How many  hetero love stories have you  read where one of the couple does not accept their love for the other, on a fundamental basis? How unique really is BBM in that light? I think its pretty damned unique...Off hand, I'd say most love stories achieve acknowledgement from both parties, even if they end tragically. Its never about how they feel for each other.

I think BBM is very much about the internal, although the external is there too.   I do think that is sometimes touched on in other stories - usually there are external forces keeping the couple apart (there has to be something keeping them apart or there isn't a story), but sometimes there are internal things too.   Take 'Brief Encounter' for instance - there are external things keeping the characters apart (their society doesn't approve, etc.), but really it's their own sense of right and wrong, of duty, which puts a stop to it.  'Casablanca'?  'Gone with the Wind'?  There are often internal factors.   Although that emphasis on the internal is an outstanding feature  of BBM, I don't think it's that exceptional - and I think that feature appeals to us a lot. 

It agree with you about the lack of acceptance.    The characters in 'Brief Encounter' can acknowledge what they feel for each other, and can even accept it although they can't accept acting on it.   Ennis can't properly acknowledge it and can't even accept it whether or not he acts on it, I think. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on March 03, 2008, 01:14:16 PM
As you wrote it, I agree...She made it what it was, a short story. It is true though that it lends itself to fleshing out, if only because of the fascinating twists and turns at the end. Its a matter of preference, I think. But yes, the original work will always stand, IMO, as perfection. Even when I think of what I would have liked to see more of, I realize it would affect another scene in the story..kind of like taking one med for one thing, and having it screw up something else.
AP's balance is masterful.

"...balance..." The Golden Mean at work. Thanks, jo.  ;D

I know what you mean and I agree. Good medicine analogy.
I'm not even a big fan of short stories, althought lately I've been disproving that by reading a few in
The New Yorker and liking them. But, on the whole, I'm a reader of novels.

And yet, wonder of wonders, I've lately been considering writing short stories again
as I seem to have a talent for it.
So, who knows? Does EVERYTHING exist to be disproven?
Maybe. ::)

Certainly, BBM is the perfect short story.
I remember, vaguely, having the same feeling about Guy DeMaupassant's work when I read it
in high school. And O'Henry, of course.
But nothing in between springs to mind, until BBM.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 03, 2008, 01:19:00 PM
Have you tried Alice Munro, Rosewood?

IMO her short stories are brilliant.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on March 03, 2008, 01:26:53 PM
Don't think I'm familiar with her work.
(So many books, so little time!!)
But I'll certainly keep a look-out.
That is, if the pile of books near my bed doesn't topple
over one of these nights and put an end to my feeble
existence. :D
Thanks, Ellen.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 03, 2008, 09:10:54 PM
Rose-A short story from you would be well worth the wait, I'm sure.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on March 04, 2008, 01:01:51 PM
Rose-A short story from you would be well worth the wait, I'm sure.

Thanks, csi. You'll be the first to know.
Don't know yet where I'm headed with it.
Still tossing things around.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 04, 2008, 01:05:18 PM
Don't think I'm familiar with her work.
(So many books, so little time!!)
But I'll certainly keep a look-out.
That is, if the pile of books near my bed doesn't topple
over one of these nights and put an end to my feeble
existence. :D
Thanks, Ellen.


keep writing, Rosewood!

btw sometimes Alice Munro is published in The New Yorker, although she up in years now.  Farther along than our heroine Annie Proulx.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: afhickman on March 12, 2008, 09:46:17 AM
Have you tried Alice Munro, Rosewood?

IMO her short stories are brilliant.

Has anybody mentioned that Alice Munro wrote the short story on which Julie Christie's "Away from Her" is based?  There are a lot of great short story writers out there.  One of my favorites is William Boyd.  But Annie stands alone.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 15, 2008, 07:53:32 PM
Oh, I so want to see/ read Away From Her...I hear both book and film are GREAT.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on March 19, 2008, 06:05:09 PM
In my local paper on the 12th, the syndicated Crossword puzzle by Thomas Joseph. 15 acroos:
"Brokeback Mountain" director.

Ain't it funny how any little snippet can lighten the day?!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on March 23, 2008, 02:11:48 PM
In my local paper on the 12th, the syndicated Crossword puzzle by Thomas Joseph. 15 acroos:
"Brokeback Mountain" director.

Ain't it funny how any little snippet can lighten the day?!

Yes, I've come across that clue in crosswords before.  Nice
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on March 23, 2008, 02:15:12 PM
Two random thoughts I had recently:

Do you think BBM will ever be shown on network television or even on a station like TBS or TNT, or is it too serious or "controversial" for that (I know they tend to show mainly brainless action movies and comedies)?

And what do you think are the chances that Criterion will eventually release a version of the film?  It seems like it would be a perfect choice for them.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on March 24, 2008, 08:25:58 AM
It's certainly been on main channels here in the UK. ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on March 24, 2008, 06:58:26 PM
Two random thoughts I had recently:

Do you think BBM will ever be shown on network television or even on a station like TBS or TNT, or is it too serious or "controversial" for that (I know they tend to show mainly brainless action movies and comedies)?

And what do you think are the chances that Criterion will eventually release a version of the film?  It seems like it would be a perfect choice for them.

I think it might be on network tv... in the future. Maybe 10 years. There will have to be a few more films released along the same line as Brokeback (and I ain't talking "westerns") before we see it on mainstream tv. But I've been wrong before... there was that time in '76 and....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 25, 2008, 01:35:36 AM
It's certainly been on main channels here in the UK. ;)

I have only seen it on paid channels like Sky Movies personally, but am I mistaken?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on March 26, 2008, 02:36:29 PM
im sure its been shown on main channels in the uk! but america and other places then here cos i think the uk is more relaxed about 'gay love scenes and stories' cos im sure ive herd in america mainly in the south is very reglion based is that right?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 26, 2008, 02:47:34 PM
It's been on Sky Movies, which is a cable channel which one has to pay a subscription for, but I have not seen it on any of the mainstream channels, even though as you say we are pretty cool about such things here! There are probably other reasons than content why this is so!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on March 27, 2008, 11:23:36 PM
The networks in the UK, like the ones here, may not be willing to pony up. Popular first run flicks cost a lot more than older pictures. Crash hasn't been on network tv (just to name one from the same time period.)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 28, 2008, 06:52:59 AM
I suspect that is probably the reason, but I know Sky movies show it, and they had it as a film that one could pay for on their "Front Row" channel. We have Virgin Cable and to my knowledge they have never shown it at all. I do wonder if that is something to do with content, but as they do have Queer As Folk it seems unlikely. I wondered if there were copyright issues?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 02, 2008, 04:43:08 PM
There is one -- count 'em, one -- moment in the film when it looks like Heath is acting.  It's when he wakes up after FNIT.  The expression on his face is not quite perfect. 

I guess the rest of his performance makes up for it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: freetraveller on April 03, 2008, 05:49:42 AM
I was also surprised that he looked clean-shaven to me in the morning after FNIT...  ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 03, 2008, 09:38:40 AM
So did Jack.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on April 03, 2008, 02:21:16 PM
They were 19... maybe neither was supposed to have a lot of face hair at the time. I don't remember them looking scruffy at all on the mountain.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on April 04, 2008, 07:49:26 AM
They shaved regularly as a priority. With all that sex, they didn't want to give each other a rash!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on April 04, 2008, 02:31:55 PM
They shaved regularly as a priority. With all that sex, they didn't want to give each other a rash!

very good point!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: MsMercury on April 04, 2008, 10:07:10 PM
I didn't know where to post this but I found this link today and thought I would share it.  I'm sure it's probably been posted before. Sorry if it already has.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33 (http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 08, 2008, 01:06:45 PM
I didn't know where to post this but I found this link today and thought I would share it.  I'm sure it's probably been posted before. Sorry if it already has.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33 (http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33)


Don't apologize.  It's very cool. I haven't seen it for a long time, so I appreciate the reminder.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 08, 2008, 10:45:44 PM
Harking back a post or three, BBM was shown on free-to-air TV in New Zealand last Sunday. The reviewer thought (slightly tongue-in-cheek) that NZers would maybe like the sheep connection  ;) (I can say that because I grew up there but no-one else is allowed to make sheep jokes  >:()

Re. FNIT, what was wrong with Heath's expression, Marc? he looked pretty right to me. Re. his stubble, he is a fair-haired man. (Note the "is" - we Heathens now live in a dreamworld.)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 08, 2008, 10:51:33 PM
I didn't know where to post this but I found this link today and thought I would share it.  I'm sure it's probably been posted before. Sorry if it already has.
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33 (http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33)


Don't apologize.  It's very cool. I haven't seen it for a long time, so I appreciate the reminder.


And the music is rather nice too.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2008, 09:26:23 AM
I thought the problem w/ Heath's morning-after expression was that it looked like he was acting -- the only moment in the movie when that happens.  It was good acting, but not perfectly natural.

I forget where I posted it, but his expressions in The Patriot were marvelous.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2008, 10:44:57 AM
I just checked out the Making of on the Buzz Image link.  Wonderful!  And the music, which is is a variation of what's on the trailer, is so pretty I started to get choked up.

If only the assholes/idiots/... at Universal would put things like that on the DVD.  Maybe I'll make that suggestion to Buzz Image.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2008, 12:28:36 PM
I sent this e-mail to Buzz Images about a half-hour ago:

**************

Today was the first time I'd seen your Brokeback clip on your site.  It's a marvelous job of showing your contributions to what I and others think is one of the best movies ever made.

I had a suggestion.  Many people have been frustrated at how incomplete the Brokeback DVDs have been:  no trailer; no commentary; etc.  I've written to Universal and Focus Features, but they don't care.

So my suggestion is this:  How about if Buzz Images suggests to Universal that -- whenever they put out another Brokeback DVD -- they include your material on how the shots were composed?

I hope you have better luck than I did in persuading Universal or Focus Features to do justice to the film.

Thank you for your consideration.

Marc

***************
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2008, 01:14:06 PM
I've watched the Buzz Image video about five times now.  In the shot of the sheep going up the valley on the right, I'd never looked at the left side of the screen and seen the sheep on the hilltop.  I will next time.

Since Heath's death, the only time I've seen the movie all the way through was at the Castro Theatre last month.  I've started it a couple of times at home, but not gotten much past their first summer.  I used to average once a week.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on April 11, 2008, 01:57:34 PM
im sure your get back to watching the whole film in time
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 11, 2008, 04:30:52 PM
Jesus, almost all I've been doing this afternoon is listening on headphones to the Buzz Image music and crying.  And sometimes getting work done.

The music is extraordinary.

I predict I'll watch the movie this evening.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on April 14, 2008, 11:48:12 AM
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f104/vcdrtPH/card-thresher3.jpg)

Maybe it has been mentioned in one thread or another, but 4/10 was the anniversary of the crushing of the Thresher in 1963, as I was 'reminded' on one of my visits to Bettermost this morning.  For film-only people, that event is one of the things J&E talk about when they are just getting real interested in  each other. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on April 16, 2008, 06:40:10 AM
I can't believe that in the msn.com list of films that changed lives there is Jaws but not BBM  >:( >:( >:(

http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895 (http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 16, 2008, 07:53:07 AM
Yeah, well, I haven't been keen on sharks since --- oh, wait up, I haven't seen Jaws.


And Dal, where is the DECEASED stamp? Shouldn't there be one across that envelope?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on April 16, 2008, 10:58:13 AM
Ouch, Dal - this piece makes the Thresher tragedy very real  - and now we all know what it feels like getting one of them returned cards  :'( May those heroic marines rest in peace...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 16, 2008, 10:59:56 AM
I can't believe that in the msn.com list of films that changed lives there is Jaws but not BBM  >:( >:( >:(

http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895 (http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=8073895)


Jaws changed my life too!  Ever since I saw it in the 70s I have been avoiding the re-runs on television!

Let me think-- anything else?  Made me a Richard Dreyfuss fan.  Nope.  That came later.

Um -- exacerbated fear of sharks?  nope, like Mini. A., that was already in place at birth.  Of course, it did raise my awareness of sharks.  But I don't think it would stop me from buying beachfront property.

OK, maybe they mean, launched Stephen Spielberg's career.  That was life-changing for sure.  I guess every movie changes at least one person's life in some way.  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 16, 2008, 11:01:14 AM
Ouch, Dal - this piece makes the Thresher tragedy very real  - and now we all know what it feels like getting one of them returned cards  :'( May those heroic marines rest in peace...


 :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2008, 12:18:21 PM
I think I remember hearing that the latest AFI list of top 100 movies didn't include BBM.  And if that's true, then all such lists are worthless and not worth the keystrokes to bemoan them.

Including these.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on April 17, 2008, 01:23:14 PM
And Dal, where is the DECEASED stamp? Shouldn't there be one across that envelope?
"I'll take 'Obsolete Regional Post-office Practices' for a thousand."  [aka "Darned if I know"]  Was the loss of the ship made known immediately?  New model, nuclear -- they may have  kept the event very close until the initial investigation was finished.  I'm sure there were a lot of things aboard that the Navy wanted to either recover, or to make certain that they were not lying around somewhere for the Russian navy to pick up.  So the letter sat around 'unclaimed,' until it was so stamped, and returned.

Yes, your honor, I swear that's what happened!  honest![IOW I've been spinning BS here.  Maybe something like that, though]


I can't believe that in the msn.com list of films that changed lives there is Jaws but not BBM  >:( >:( >:(


Jaws changed my life too!  Ever since I saw it in the 70s I have been avoiding the re-runs on television!
My Gramma never took a shower for (I guess) 35 years after  she saw Psycho; only tub baths.  Such was the power of the movie, in the days before slasher flicks had become bread and butter.

Jaws Schmaws, ptui.  Changing lives -- what  about Jud Suess? or Triumph des Willens?  There's a couple of life-changers for you.  Jaws! [TdW is way scarier than any fish movie, too, of course.  And  the bad guy wins]
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on April 17, 2008, 02:16:21 PM
A friend of mine sent me this video that has nothing to do with BBM,
but since it has to do with Austraila, Heath Ledger's homeland, I thought I'd
post it on here for all to enjoy. It is amazing to think all this is done with lights.
Can it be real?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm4TOPs3J4
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 17, 2008, 04:16:28 PM
Dal, I'll never forget "Triumph of the Will", in Film class in college. What a flick.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 17, 2008, 10:08:42 PM
A friend of mine sent me this video that has nothing to do with BBM,
but since it has to do with Austraila, Heath Ledger's homeland, I thought I'd
post it on here for all to enjoy. It is amazing to think all this is done with lights.
Can it be real?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm4TOPs3J4

Yes, it's real.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 17, 2008, 11:40:43 PM
A friend of mine sent me this video that has nothing to do with BBM,
but since it has to do with Austraila, Heath Ledger's homeland, I thought I'd
post it on here for all to enjoy. It is amazing to think all this is done with lights.
Can it be real?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUm4TOPs3J4
Oh, that was quite lovely....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on April 19, 2008, 05:45:35 AM
An interesting bit about the costumes for Ennis wedding, straight from the Calgary Herald:

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=cb7cfe27-7711-4744-be27-cd2e413940bc (http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=cb7cfe27-7711-4744-be27-cd2e413940bc)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on April 19, 2008, 08:56:13 AM
thanks for that what a cool job!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 19, 2008, 11:17:32 PM
Ah hah! So that solves the question of whether Ennis is wearing slacks or not in the wedding portrait (which is b&w so you can't tell). What lovely attention to detail.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on April 19, 2008, 11:25:01 PM
I love that she looks just like her Pee Wee Herman doll! :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 20, 2008, 01:29:25 AM
I gave a close friend a pee-wee Herman doll years ago for her b-day; never laughed so hard, I swear. It seems right that Ennis would wear jeans and let the best man-KE?-wear the pants. Like he doesn't feel worthy or something....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on April 20, 2008, 05:46:37 AM
A sign of poverty, I'd say - they can't afford decent clothes, yet the best man has to look his best

Or because Ennis is only half-heartedly into this marriage, the part that shows is dressed up, the part that doesn't wears jeans like on the mountain
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 21, 2008, 07:38:21 AM
I like that bit of symbolism, Mouk. In a practical sense, I'd say KE, the married man, owns a suit (probably his own wedding suit)  so he loans his kid brother the jacket so he can look half smart on his big day.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on April 21, 2008, 08:07:23 AM
This sounds totally plausible, if less poetic  ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on April 22, 2008, 03:06:59 PM
Totally NOT related to the film or story...
is there a thread for internet technical questions? I'm interested in getting some info on "banners"... in a language I, a non-computer person, can understand.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lauren on April 22, 2008, 07:59:09 PM

An interesting article with a quote from Ang Lee about what he feel is censorship in film and video:

In a quote from those who disagreed with Lee, I particulary liked, ""I'm surprised about the comments of Mr. Ang Lee, director of the world acclaimed movie Brokeback Mountain." I'll go along with the bolded part.  :)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080422.BUZZ22-1/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Television/
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 22, 2008, 09:37:26 PM
A sign of poverty, I'd say - they can't afford decent clothes, yet the best man has to look his best

Or because Ennis is only half-heartedly into this marriage, the part that shows is dressed up, the part that doesn't wears jeans like on the mountain
I like that alot, Moukster. His heart is only half in it....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on April 23, 2008, 12:16:37 AM
It's not his heart that isn't in it - it's his lower half!  :D. (But I like that idea too).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on April 23, 2008, 02:29:10 AM
Totally NOT related to the film or story...
is there a thread for internet technical questions? I'm interested in getting some info on "banners"... in a language I, a non-computer person, can understand.

Doodler, you can post your specific question here and we will try to help.

New Members Ask -- Experienced Members Respond (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0) even though you are not a new member we pick up any technical quations there.

Nax
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on April 23, 2008, 03:31:20 AM
A sign of poverty, I'd say - they can't afford decent clothes, yet the best man has to look his best

Or because Ennis is only half-heartedly into this marriage, the part that shows is dressed up, the part that doesn't wears jeans like on the mountain
I like that alot, Moukster. His heart is only half in it....

And guess which part is not in it at all? the one in the jeans, yep this part is NOT dressed up for the occasion   :o >:D >:D >:D :D 

Edited: Ooops, I had not seen Desecra's post. Well, that's where great minds meet ...  ;) :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 23, 2008, 09:10:10 AM
It's not his heart that isn't in it - it's his lower half!  :D. (But I like that idea too).
Well, you know what I mean...but yeah, that is appropriate that the lower half is the cowboy up on BBM.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on April 23, 2008, 05:17:09 PM
Totally NOT related to the film or story...
is there a thread for internet technical questions? I'm interested in getting some info on "banners"... in a language I, a non-computer person, can understand.

Doodler, you can post your specific question here and we will try to help.

New Members Ask -- Experienced Members Respond (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0) even though you are not a new member we pick up any technical quations there.

Nax

Thanks... on my way there now!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on April 30, 2008, 08:44:11 AM
i really wanna get the soundtrack anyone got it?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Castro on May 03, 2008, 11:55:56 AM
About a tribute to Larry McMurtry, and McMurtry's tribute to books:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patt-morrison/from-lonesome-dove-to-lon_b_99622.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/patt-morrison/from-lonesome-dove-to-lon_b_99622.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on May 03, 2008, 03:22:56 PM
he hasn't died has he?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on May 06, 2008, 07:33:44 PM
Funny story.  Today some of my students took their Advanced Placement Spanish Language test (I teach English).  One of the oral questions asked them to compare and contrast the biographies of Gustavo Santaolalla and another composer whose name I can't remember.  They had to record their answers into a tape recorder.  The reason they were upset with the question is because none of them could pronounce his name!  It is quite a tongue-twister I have to admit, especially for an oral exam.   ;D

Still, nice to see Gustavo getting that kind of recognition.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 06, 2008, 07:46:51 PM
Hee, I think his name is pretty easy... Gu- STAH-voh. What's so hard about that?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on May 06, 2008, 10:15:42 PM
Hee, I think his name is pretty easy... Gu- STAH-voh. What's so hard about that?

 ;D

Good one.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on May 08, 2008, 07:46:42 AM
Probably off-topic, but I am not sure where to post it

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080506/ap_en_ot/challenged_books (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080506/ap_en_ot/challenged_books)

Not unexpected, but sad all the same... >:(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on May 08, 2008, 01:43:32 PM
Well Mouk it doesn't fit anywhere else (maybe the diner for a live general discussion)  however for noter, there were a pair of male flamingos in a zoo that did exactly this for real.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on May 09, 2008, 09:27:48 AM
Yes I remember the flamingoes, this was a great story  :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on May 09, 2008, 01:01:40 PM
I have a gorgeous close-up pix of a flamingo as my opening page. (Is that what
it's called? The page where my computer first opens when I turn it on?)
Everytime I go to change it to something else, I look at it and realize what
could be better? The color in the feathers is staggering. The shape of the head.
The long neck. A bird both gorgeous and odd.

Apropos of nothing, I know.  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 13, 2008, 12:28:23 AM
This may have already been mentioned:

"A Tribute to Heath Ledger"
is on Disc 2 of the "I"M NOT THERE"
(region 1) two-disc collectors edition DVD.

Disc 1 also has some comments about Heath.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on May 13, 2008, 10:12:20 AM
Thanks Lislis, it might be wortgh posting that in the Planet Heath thread Click here (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=29611.0)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on May 13, 2008, 07:21:06 PM
I just reposted it over there for the benefit of all us heartsore Heathens.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 15, 2008, 09:21:59 AM


Maybe it has been mentioned in one thread or another, but 4/10 was the anniversary of the crushing of the Thresher in 1963, as I was 'reminded' on one of my visits to Bettermost this morning.  For film-only people, that event is one of the things J&E talk about when they are just getting real interested in  each other. 


Hi y'all

I just found this interesting thread and am now catching up on it.

Can someone please enlighten me, what was (is?) the crushing of the Thresher?? How is it related to J and E?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on May 15, 2008, 10:09:35 AM
HI Sason - the Thresher was a submarine which sank in 1963.  In the book, Ennis and Jack talk about the Thresher going down and what it must have been like in the last minutes - it's part of a conversation before the first night in the tent, when they're getting to know each other.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/k19/disasters_detail2.html

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 15, 2008, 10:38:27 AM
Thanks a lot, Desecra, for that info!!

I had no idea.....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on May 15, 2008, 02:14:59 PM
You're welcome :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 18, 2008, 01:28:21 AM
One of the more unusual usages I've found - "Brokeback Syndrome" ??

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/05/16/amd_response_intel

AMD's charges against Intel center on what we're calling Brokeback Syndrome.
Intel's lucrative pricing, co-marketing and financial incentives, we're told,
made it near impossible for customers to quit the chip vendor.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 18, 2008, 08:52:27 AM
Interesting, but I have no idea what it means.......
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on May 18, 2008, 01:26:54 PM
One of the more unusual usages I've found - "Brokeback Syndrome" ??

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/05/16/amd_response_intel

AMD's charges against Intel center on what we're calling Brokeback Syndrome.
Intel's lucrative pricing, co-marketing and financial incentives, we're told,
made it near impossible for customers to quit the chip vendor.


hahahaha!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on May 18, 2008, 05:08:13 PM
Interesting, but I have no idea what it means.......


They wish they knew how to quit!

That is cute.  It's especially notable because it is a really mainstream usage, not referring only to gays.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on May 18, 2008, 08:27:22 PM
Apparently, "Brokeback Mountain" received a government-sanctioned airing on Cuban TV as a part of the national "Combat Homophobia Day" in that country.

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_9296544

Cuba holds gay-rights rally, shows `Brokeback Mountain'
The Associated Press
Article Last Updated: 05/17/2008 09:34:43 PM PDT


HAVANA - Cuba's gay community celebrated unprecedented openness - and high-ranking political alliances - with a government-backed campaign against homophobia on Saturday.

The meeting at a convention center in Havana's Vedado district may have been the largest gathering of openly gay activists ever on the communist-run island. President Raul Castro's daughter Mariela, who has promoted the rights of sexual minorities, presided.

Mariela Castro joined government leaders and hundreds of activists at the one-day conference for the International Day Against Homophobia that featured shows, lectures, panel discussions and book presentations. A station also offered blood tests for sexually transmitted diseases. Cuban state TV gave prime-time play Friday to the U.S. film "Brokeback Mountain," which tells the story of two cowboys who conceal their homosexual affair.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 18, 2008, 09:10:37 PM
HI Sason - the Thresher was a submarine which sank in 1963.  In the book, Ennis and Jack talk about the Thresher going down and what it must have been like in the last minutes - it's part of a conversation before the first night in the tent, when they're getting to know each other.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/k19/disasters_detail2.html

Thank you. I never would have remembered that line.

So I went back and read the story again today, and I noticed something else. I don't know if it's been discussed before.

It's from this paragraph:

Quote
The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer. Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to “Strawberry Roan.” Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling “What I say-ay-ay,” but he favored a sad hymn, “Water-Walking Jesus,” learned from his mother, who believed in the Pentecost, and that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.

I looked up the lyrics for 'Strawberry Roan"

I was hangin' 'round town, just spendin' my time
Out of a job, not earnin' a dime
A feller steps up and he said, "I suppose
You're a bronc fighter from looks of your clothes."
"You figures me right, I'm a good one." I claim
"Do you happen to have any bad ones to tame?"
Said "He's got one, a bad one to buck
At throwin' good riders, he's had lots of luck."


I gets all het up and I ask what he pays
To ride this old nag for a couple of days
He offered me ten; I said, "I'm your man,
A bronc never lived that I couldn't span."
He said: "Get your saddle, I'll give you a chance"
In his buckboard we hopped and he drives to the ranch
I stayed 'til mornin' and right after chuck
I stepped out to see if this outlaw can buck.

Down in the horse corral standin' alone
Is an old Caballo, a Strawberry Roan
His legs are all spavined, he's got pigeon toes
Little pig eyes and a big Roman nose
Little pin ears that touched at the tip
A big 44 brand was on his left hip
U-necked and old, with a long, lower jaw
I could see with one eye, he's a regular outlaw.


I gets the blinds on 'im and it sure is a fright
Next comes the saddle and I screws it down tight
Then I steps on 'im and I raises the blinds
Get outta the way boys, he's gonna unwind
He sure is a frog-walker, he heaves a big sigh
He only lacks wings, for to be on the fly
He turns his old belly right up to the sun
He sure is a sun-fishin', son-of-a-gun.

He's about the worst bucker I've seen on the range
He'll turn on a Nickel and give you some change
He hits on all fours and goes up on high
Leaves me a spinnin' up there in the sky
I turns over twice and I comes back to earth
I lights in a cussin' the day of his birth
I know there are ponies that I cannot ride
There's some of them left, they haven't all died.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Probably just my imagination, but it seems like the screenwriters must have read the lyrics too.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on May 19, 2008, 05:06:49 AM
The salty lyrics are decidedly saltier, John. From memory they have something to do with castration and goodness knows what else. It's a long while since I read them.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 19, 2008, 08:19:27 AM
Interesting, but I have no idea what it means.......


They wish they knew how to quit!

That is cute.  It's especially notable because it is a really mainstream usage, not referring only to gays.


OK, thanks. It makes sense now.....  I'm not so good at this financial-technological English....   :D :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: MountainMouse on May 19, 2008, 08:22:13 AM
The salty lyrics are decidedly saltier, John. From memory they have something to do with castration and goodness knows what else. It's a long while since I read them.

I've found this version, don't know if it's salty enough for our Marian  :)

VERSE 1
I was hang'n 'round town
In a house of ill fame
Layed up with a twist
Of a hustl'n dame
And a hop-headed pig
With his nose full of coke
Beat me out'a my whore
An' left me stone-broke
When up steps a stranger
Said he say, my lad
Are you any good ride'n
Horses that's bad
I said, you damn right
That's one thing I can do
I'm a second rate pimp
But a good buckeroo

VERSE 2
O, that strawberry roan
How many colts has he thrown
He's got gonareeha, th glonders an' syph
Th blue-balls n' claps
But his tool is still stiff
Look out for that strawberry roan

VERSE 3
When a good look'n filly
Would come inta heat
Was th strawberry roan
That throwed her th meat
Th upshot of it was
I found myself hired
T' snap out some bronc's
This roan stud had sired
Their knot-head cayuse's
Just like their Dad
Most of them roans
An' all of thems bad
With their feet in my pockets
Them bastards would fight
Till my ass drug my tracks
Along before night

VERSE 4
With my balls in my boots
N' my mouth full of shit
I'se plumb tuckered out
N' ready to quit
Whenever I thought
I h'd one of them r'de
He busted my ass
An' I found myself throwed
Then th boss come around
He said, that's enough
Th strawberry roan's
Colts are to tough
I'm a get'n damn sick
Of you take'n them falls
We'll get that windmill'n stud
N' we'll cut out his balls

VERSE 5
O, that strawberry roan
We went out to unbend his bone
I built a big loop
N' went to th corral
I roped his front feet
He jumped, he kicked
He snorted, he firted n' fell
I flattened that strawberry roan

VERSE 6
Well, th boss held his head
While I hog-tied his legs
I got out my knife
N' I went for his eggs
He knowed what I wanted
He knowed it damn well
Cause he fought like a tiger
An' he squealed like hell
Well, I opened his bag
N' he let out a moan
He squealed like a shoate
When I cut out that stone
But all I could locate
T'was one of his nuts
The other was swimin'
Some place in his guts
Well, I'm swim'n in blood
N I felt someth'n pass
But its only a tird
On th way to his ass

VERSE 7
Well, th boss said, I'm sick
Of this hard buck'n breed
If it takes us all night
We'll get that other seed
Just then I heard one of them
Blood curdlein' squalls
An' the strawberry roan
Had th boss by th balls
Well, I stomped on his head
But it was no use
He's just like a bulldog
He would'nt turn loose
I untied his legs
N' he got t' his feet
The bosses voice changed
An' I knew he was beat

VERSE 8
O, that strawberry roan
I advise you to leave him alone
He's a knot-headed cayuse
With only one ball
But th boss is a un-nicke
With no balls at all
Look out fer that strawberry roan


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on May 21, 2008, 02:23:07 AM
That sounds like the one I read!   I like the echo in the film of Ennis castrating calves. I feel there's a vague connection with the fathers symbolically castrating their two sons via the bathroom scene and the Earl scene.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 30, 2008, 02:42:27 AM
(might have already been posted)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,360402,00.html#1

The word from the inner workings at Warner Bros.
Heath Ledger’s family will journey from Australia to New York
this summer for the premiere of “The Dark Knight.”
The film opens on July 18th.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 30, 2008, 08:05:12 AM
I can tell by the effect the commercials have on me that I am not going to be able to watch The Dark Knight, at least for some time but a thought occured to me...
why is Heath's part considered a supporting  role rather than a starring  one? The film is not titled Batman Against the Dark Knight or even Batman AND the Dark Knight.  Seems to me that the title character would be a starring role and therefore, eligible for a Best Actor award. Anybody have any insight on this?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on May 30, 2008, 08:37:08 AM
Plus the fact that all the marketing is based on the Dark Knight himself.

It is probably tricky because this is part of of Batman series where Batman has been the main character so far (so I assume, never watched them). Just as Jake G being in the support role in BBM was an unsatisfatory arrangement as both were really main characters.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 30, 2008, 05:42:28 PM
I understand what you're are saying about Jake's part in Brokeback and THAT really was tricky... I think there can be more than one "star" in a movie... otherwise how could you have a Best ActOR and Best ActRESS nomination for the same movie which happens often enough.

BUT The Dark Knight is an entirely different kettle of fish, Batman series or not. It would certainly be possible to do a series showcasing different characters in a story line and not even have the "main" character in the film... say a series of  Superman films where one episode is about Lois Lane BEFORE she meets Superman or he could be just PART of the story of her life.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: jake lover on May 30, 2008, 09:35:04 PM
can anyone reply my question if i asked about a part in the film??
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 30, 2008, 11:36:19 PM
can anyone reply my question if i asked about a part in the film??

Ask away... around here, someone always knows the answer.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on May 31, 2008, 02:24:30 PM
I'm not certain about this but I believe the studio/producer is responsible for the classification of the role in the movie as actor or supporting actor with only one  role allowed in each.  Jake's role is slightly smaller than Heath's but since both could not be nominated for a single category, Jake ended up as a supporting actor.  I think it is generally agreed that Heath gave the stronger performance which may have also influenced the classification. 

Anne Hathaway is on the cover of this week's Parade (June 1).  In the article, she says this about Heath's death: That was a shocker...  I hesitate to talk about Heath.  He was special in so many ways.  I can tell you that I feel I cared about him more than I actually knew him.  It was devastating, and the people who were closest to him should talk about him in their own time. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: DanRWentzelJr on May 31, 2008, 02:47:07 PM
I'm repeating myself, but the discussion is back.

I've always thought one reason for the timing was to keep AIDS off the table.  Also, Jack's relationship w/ Randall is a good reason why Jack wouldn't have been exposed.  This assumes he's having sex only w/Randall and Ennis, a reasonable assumption given how important Randall has become.


I agree that for the purposes of this story AIDS is taken off the table.  (Although the New York Times by then had been reporting on GRID and many people who died in the early 80s were no doubt initially infected prior to the time that Randall and Jack were dating.)

However, I respectfully disagree with the assumption that Jack was only having sex with Randall and Ennis.  He was probably also occasionally fulfilling his husbandly duties and possibly still taking trips down to Mexico.  If one believes that the car accident story was the official cover for a tire iron assault, it could be because Jack propositioned the wrong person.  This is in no way to judge Jack.  I have nothing but respect for him because I was him.  (Ironically, my boyfriend is a lot like Ennis.)  From personal experience and from witnessing others I know how compartmentalized one can be when one is closeted, living in secrets and/or in an emotional hurricane with crosswinds from every direction.

We know that Jack mentioned Randall to his father, but not in a way that made a deep enough impression for his father to Remember Randall's name.  Ennis was still expecting to meet up with Jack on Brokeback Mountain.  While we know that Randall had become important enough to Jack for Jack to mention him, we really have no idea how important Jack was to Randall.  There are absolutely no clues in the story or the movie that Randall had any intention of joining Jack on his ranch, or leaving his wife at all.  Depending on what one believes on life after death and dreams, I've always seen Jack appearing in Ennis' dreams as a sign that Jack never fully moved on despite his atempt.  Also, depending on what one believes about when someone dies, I think at some level Jack's soul was ready to go.  May he realized he wasn't going to get his ranch dream with anyone, neither Ennis nor Randall.  This is all conjecture and speculation, of course, which any great work of art brings up.

Proulx and Larry/Diana wisely do no fill in the blanks for us.  Like Ennis, we are left merely with what we think we know.

Jack might have really moved on and elevated Randall to Ennis' status, or not.  And, Jack had not been monogamous before.  I just don't think we can assume he was all of a sudden monogamous.  He may have been.  He may not have been.  And we don't know if Randall was monogamous either because we know very little about him.

What's so amazing about this beautiful and divinely inspired book/film is that it provides each of us a template to fill in these blanks with our own experience, emotion and vision, to have the catharsis and insight we need.

I truly believe this book and film was channeled from the Great Creator first through Annie, then Larry/Diana, Heath/Jake/Michelle/Anne, Gustavo/Rodrigo and everyone who produced and worked on this film at every level. Sometimes a little slice of heaven is indeed manifested as a work of art.  In this case it definitely was.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: DanRWentzelJr on May 31, 2008, 03:10:29 PM
I'm not certain about this but I believe the studio/producer is responsible for the classification of the role in the movie as actor or supporting actor with only one  role allowed in each.  Jake's role is slightly smaller than Heath's but since both could not be nominated for a single category, Jake ended up as a supporting actor.  I think it is generally agreed that Heath gave the stronger performance which may have also influenced the classification. 

Actually, that's not quite true.  Nowdaays, the actor or produces decide how to market for the Oscars and other awards, but there are many instances of two or three actors being nominated from the same film for the same acting category. 

Critics awards occasionally diverge from the expected category.  It is speculated that one reason that neither Marlon Brando nor Al Pacino won either Best Lead or Supporting Actor from the New York Film Critics Circle was because they couldn't decide whether each actor was lead or supporting.  The Golden Globes I think insisted that Jake be listed as a lead along with Heath.   Meryl Streep won a couple of critics awards for Supporting Actress for The Devil Wears Prada and a Globe for Leading Actress in a Comedy.

Even with the campaign, there are still wrenches that come up.  In 1981, Susan Sarandon was promoted as Best Supporting Actress for Atlantic City for the entire awards season and when the nominations were announced she ended up in the leading category to her surprise and the producers.

In 1944, Barry Fitzgerald was nominated for BOTH lead and support for the same role in Going My Way.  The rules were changed shortly thereafter.

I'd have to double check this, but believe the rules have been changed now so that all votes for a role are added up and counted in the category where it receives the most votes and an actor with more than one film with votes in the same category, will have both votes count, but that the film with the top number of votes will be the one he is nominated form.  Or the rules could have changed again.  One complaint some critics have is that leading performances are targeted for supporting nominations, but end up pushing out a genuinely supporting performance.  Gene Siskel used to call it "stealing a slot" from a deserving supporting actor.

There is still unfortunately no rule for all but a few categories like Foreign Language Film that requires the Academy members voting in a category to actually bother seeing ALL the nominations before voting on them.

The decision to promote and market Jake for supporting actor was no doubt the producers.  They producers could have easily decided to promote both Heath and Jake as leading actors, which would have been arguably true.  Heath had more screen time and ultimately the story pivots around Ennis' journey.  While I think both of these roles are leading, I'm glad they didn't divide the votes and Jake won the BAFTA and National Board of Review Award and Heath won the New York Film Critics Award, which may not have happened if they had been splitting votes.  (They both should have won the Oscar and the SAG Award, IMO.)

Quote
Anne Hathaway is on the cover of this week's Parade (June 1).  In the article, she says this about Heath's death: That was a shocker...  I hesitate to talk about Heath.  He was special in so many ways.  I can tell you that I feel I cared about him more than I actually knew him.  It was devastating, and the people who were closest to him should talk about him in their own time. 

Wow, I think that's how many of us feel, and we knew him even less than she did.  And we will hear from others in future interviews no doubt in their own time.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 31, 2008, 04:17:11 PM
We are not actually asking about Jake/Heath/Brokeback but about Heath's role in in The Dark Knight. It seems a little odd that AS the title character he would be eligible for a SUPPORTING nomination but not the BEST award. That would be like an actor portraying the Pope in a movie entitled The Pope getting a supporting nod while the actor portraying the President of Italy got the best nomination because The Pope was part of a series on influences on Italian Presidents.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on May 31, 2008, 08:21:49 PM
I think the discussion about the Dark Night is to be found elsewhere.  And besides, isn't the Dark Knight, Batman?

Even after doing some (semi-)serious looking-about, I have still not determined how the AA nominations are determined.  We all know all about the For Your Considerations   ads (and DVDs and such) after the nominations are announced but I haven't been able to find who determines and how the nominations are determined -- even from the official AA site.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on May 31, 2008, 10:18:21 PM
Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman. The Joker is but one of the villains in the film, albeit a pretty impressive one. I have also wondered out loud if perhaps Heath's role might be Best Actor worthy but it seems he just isn't in it enough. My one hope is that, IF he is nominated in either category, and IF he wins, it's not just viewed as a sympathy vote because a) he missed out on the one he should have got, and b) he's dead.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 01, 2008, 04:01:01 AM
I'm repeating myself, but the discussion is back.

I've always thought one reason for the timing was to keep AIDS off the table.  Also, Jack's relationship w/ Randall is a good reason why Jack wouldn't have been exposed.  This assumes he's having sex only w/Randall and Ennis, a reasonable assumption given how important Randall has become.


I agree that for the purposes of this story AIDS is taken off the table.  (Although the New York Times by then had been reporting on GRID and many people who died in the early 80s were no doubt initially infected prior to the time that Randall and Jack were dating.)

However, I respectfully disagree with the assumption that Jack was only having sex with Randall and Ennis.  He was probably also occasionally fulfilling his husbandly duties and possibly still taking trips down to Mexico.  If one believes that the car accident story was the official cover for a tire iron assault, it could be because Jack propositioned the wrong person.  This is in no way to judge Jack.  I have nothing but respect for him because I was him.  (Ironically, my boyfriend is a lot like Ennis.)  From personal experience and from witnessing others I know how compartmentalized one can be when one is closeted, living in secrets and/or in an emotional hurricane with crosswinds from every direction.

We know that Jack mentioned Randall to his father, but not in a way that made a deep enough impression for his father to Remember Randall's name.  Ennis was still expecting to meet up with Jack on Brokeback Mountain.  While we know that Randall had become important enough to Jack for Jack to mention him, we really have no idea how important Jack was to Randall.  There are absolutely no clues in the story or the movie that Randall had any intention of joining Jack on his ranch, or leaving his wife at all.  Depending on what one believes on life after death and dreams, I've always seen Jack appearing in Ennis' dreams as a sign that Jack never fully moved on despite his atempt.  Also, depending on what one believes about when someone dies, I think at some level Jack's soul was ready to go.  May he realized he wasn't going to get his ranch dream with anyone, neither Ennis nor Randall.  This is all conjecture and speculation, of course, which any great work of art brings up.

Proulx and Larry/Diana wisely do no fill in the blanks for us.  Like Ennis, we are left merely with what we think we know.

Jack might have really moved on and elevated Randall to Ennis' status, or not.  And, Jack had not been monogamous before.  I just don't think we can assume he was all of a sudden monogamous.  He may have been.  He may not have been.  And we don't know if Randall was monogamous either because we know very little about him.

What's so amazing about this beautiful and divinely inspired book/film is that it provides each of us a template to fill in these blanks with our own experience, emotion and vision, to have the catharsis and insight we need.

I truly believe this book and film was channeled from the Great Creator first through Annie, then Larry/Diana, Heath/Jake/Michelle/Anne, Gustavo/Rodrigo and everyone who produced and worked on this film at every level. Sometimes a little slice of heaven is indeed manifested as a work of art.  In this case it definitely was.


CanI give my complete support to this.
I believe that the key to understanding this aspect of the story is in the line "I wish I KNEW HOW to quit you." Jack would love to be able to get over Ennis and move on with someone else, but as he says, he doesn't know how. The shirts, and the fact that he wanted his ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain, tell us, and Ennis, that ulimately he was never able to do it while he was living.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on June 01, 2008, 08:43:21 AM
i bought the soundtrack yesterday its so beautiful ive been listening to it all day
has anyone else got it?
(hope this is in the right place!)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 01, 2008, 10:29:15 AM
i bought the soundtrack yesterday its so beautiful ive been listening to it all day
has anyone else got it?
(hope this is in the right place!)


Marz --

The best place to discuss the Musical Score is in the thread, in Elements and Themes:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=297.975
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 01, 2008, 10:36:39 AM
We are not actually asking about Jake/Heath/Brokeback but about Heath's role in in The Dark Knight. It seems a little odd that AS the title character he would be eligible for a SUPPORTING nomination but not the BEST award. That would be like an actor portraying the Pope in a movie entitled The Pope getting a supporting nod while the actor portraying the President of Italy got the best nomination because The Pope was part of a series on influences on Italian Presidents.


Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman. The Joker is but one of the villains in the film, albeit a pretty impressive one. I have also wondered out loud if perhaps Heath's role might be Best Actor worthy but it seems he just isn't in it enough. My one hope is that, IF he is nominated in either category, and IF he wins, it's not just viewed as a sympathy vote because a) he missed out on the one he should have got, and b) he's dead.

gosh I didn't know Batman was the "dark knight"  :o

Even so, it seems that the "villain" in the Batman movies is always thought of as a cameo role -- the type of role where a name actor gets to do something different and creative.  The marketing would always focus on the villain for name recognition.

If Heath were alive, would we expect the designation to be different?  Maybe.

I kind of think it is a matter of tradition.  For my part I am grateful Heath didn't play Batman.  I think it would be hard for any actor to win an Academy Award playing Batman.

Anyway -- we are a lot less hung up on those categorizations than we used to be, RIGHT?

I truly think in Brokeback Mountain it was probably not a true ranking to call Jake a "supporting actor."  In our best fantasies, however, both Jake and Heath should have won those oscars.  ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on June 01, 2008, 10:54:38 AM
Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman.

Oops! Well, it just goes to show my level of interest in all things comic book! (Along with my NATURAL assumption that anything Heath is in is all about his character.) I suppose Batman is the 'dark knight' because of the black suit?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on June 01, 2008, 01:53:31 PM
We are not actually asking about Jake/Heath/Brokeback but about Heath's role in in The Dark Knight. It seems a little odd that AS the title character he would be eligible for a SUPPORTING nomination but not the BEST award. That would be like an actor portraying the Pope in a movie entitled The Pope getting a supporting nod while the actor portraying the President of Italy got the best nomination because The Pope was part of a series on influences on Italian Presidents.


Doodler, as Constant Reader says, the Dark Knight is actually Batman. The Joker is but one of the villains in the film, albeit a pretty impressive one. I have also wondered out loud if perhaps Heath's role might be Best Actor worthy but it seems he just isn't in it enough. My one hope is that, IF he is nominated in either category, and IF he wins, it's not just viewed as a sympathy vote because a) he missed out on the one he should have got, and b) he's dead.


.....I truly think in Brokeback Mountain it was probably not a true ranking to call Jake a "supporting actor."  In our best fantasies, however, both Jake and Heath should have won those oscars.  ;)

Well, at least Jake got the Best Supporting Actor' British oscar. (BAFTA)
And didn't he look thunderstruck. :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on June 01, 2008, 06:06:10 PM
Why do you say that...?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/dandydoodles/jakewinsatbaftacourtesyofyoutube.jpg)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on June 02, 2008, 02:11:17 AM
Wikipedia update needed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brokeback_Mountain

The 2nd Daily Variety ad isn't mentioned.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on June 02, 2008, 09:43:43 AM

What's so amazing about this beautiful and divinely inspired book/film is that it provides each of us a template to fill in these blanks with our own experience, emotion and vision, to have the catharsis and insight we need.

[


Thank you for those wise words, Dan!!

That is so so true!!!

I see this film as a catalyst, it brings up hidden emotions within us that need to get out there and be dealt with. They can be different for each one of us, but I keep wondering if we Brokies have something more in common than just our love for and reactions to this film. I mean, WHY has this film affected us so much? Do we all share some deep and well hidden experience that make us react so strongly on this film?? ???
I keep thinking that there is so much more to it than we probably think.....

 It's truly a magical and divine film and shows us the power of extraordinary great art.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mouk on June 02, 2008, 10:34:31 AM
Annie Proulx interview. She no longer answers questions about BBM and does not want any of her other works turned into a film.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/1411525/the_richness_of_nearly_empty_places/ (http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/1411525/the_richness_of_nearly_empty_places/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 02, 2008, 12:36:51 PM


Hey thanks mouk-- and the following is printed at the end of the article -- Evidently Annie will be interviewed by Michael Silverblatt Wednesday night, Jun 4, on radio.  I hope we'll be able to get it on the web.


***********


Lannan Readings and Conversations presents Annie Proulx with Michael Silverblatt

7 p.m. Wednesday, June 4

Lensic Performing Arts Center, 211 W. San Francisco St.

$6, $3 students & seniors; 988-1234

Rebroadcast at 6 p.m. Saturday, June 7, on KUNM-FM 89.9 and at 2 p.m. Sunday, June 8; on KSFR-FM 101.1

(c) 2008 The Santa Fe New Mexican. Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights Reserved.



Source: The Santa Fe New Mexican
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mla770 on June 08, 2008, 01:01:16 PM
Did y'all see/hear this news?  Sounds interesting!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080608/ap_en_ot/ny_city_opera_brokeback_mountain
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on June 08, 2008, 01:50:11 PM
Thanks for that, there is some discussion going on in the Diner about it.  I think the Opera thread is still open too.  We did have some discussions about this last year.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: busterjone on June 08, 2008, 09:38:16 PM
This just in from Yahoo entertainment:

NEW YORK - The New York City Opera commissioned Charles Wuorinen to compose an opera based on "Brokeback Mountain," the 1997 short story by Annie Proulx that became the basis for a 2005 movie that won three Academy Awards.

How cool is that! ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: chapeaugris on June 09, 2008, 12:31:23 AM
"The opera is scheduled to premiere in spring 2013, City Opera said Sunday."

Too early to start organizing a gathering to attend the premier?  :D :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 09, 2008, 09:08:07 AM
wow, what a great idea!!

maybe too early to start a thread, though.   :D

I will go!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 10, 2008, 11:50:11 AM
Maybe a little early to discuss the gathering, but we have re-opened the Opera thread:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on June 10, 2008, 02:00:31 PM
Thanks john
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on June 10, 2008, 02:45:12 PM
"The opera is scheduled to premiere in spring 2013, City Opera said Sunday."

Too early to start organizing a gathering to attend the premier?  :D :D


Never enough time to organize a gathering, never enough........
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on June 11, 2008, 02:56:35 PM
so true
gotta think about what im gonna wear when i go to see it
after all we've only got 5 years!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on June 12, 2008, 03:31:58 PM
so true
gotta think about what im gonna wear when i go to see it
after all we've only got 5 years!



 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: BBM on Bravo this weekend!
Post by: lil peter in AZ on June 23, 2008, 04:34:38 PM
Bravo will premiere the first cable/broadcast this weekend, first viewing on Friday, June 27th.  Appropriately, it follows the annual GLAAD movie awards.
Title: Re: BBM on Bravo this weekend!
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 24, 2008, 02:10:20 PM
Thank you Peter!

I saw that movie a couple of years ago and I thought it was pretty good.

I might watch it again.  ;D
Title: Re: BBM on Bravo this weekend!
Post by: David Dragon 3 on June 26, 2008, 03:49:56 PM
OK, now I had a party in late January one year and handed out straw cowboy hats for everyone who attended.  I guess you could say I had a favorite in the Oscar horse race and was feeling pretty cocky after the golden globes.  We drank champagne and toasted after every golden dude was given to what I think is the most amazing movie ever made.  It was touching, it was real, it moved me and others to tears and to change our lives.  Watching my baby bear crying his eyes out at his second viewing broke my heart.  I can close my eyes and hear “what you looking at,” “it could be like this, just like this,” “I swear” and break down and cry and any given moment.  Well, like most of us I was crushed by the award going to c#@sh.  I was personally hurt.  I felt betrayed and deeply sad by the out come. 
Well, that brings me to today or a couple of pieces of paper left on my door a couple of days ago.  “We are going to be filming in your neighborhood” it said.  June 26th the TV series of…now get this… c#@sh will be filming next door.  Blood and bloody ashes.  Right next door.  Yes I guess I could have complained and threw a fuss trying to stop the shoot.  Yes I could be that ass but my baby bear is not that kind of man.  A good thing is happening in our community he tells me.  Well I have held my rage but I am sitting here watching them set up right now.  Oh my god.
I guess I do have one consolation.  Last night I saw that BBM will be having its TV premier on Bravo tomorrow night.  Thank you Bravo for helping me through this crazy mess.
Title: Re: BBM On Bravo Tonight
Post by: Rosewood on June 27, 2008, 07:50:29 PM
Well, they've finally shown BBM on regular cable tv.
Bravo has it on tonight.
I watched on and off just to see how they'd censor it.
Well, in the FNIT, they got as far as Jack grabbing Ennis's hand,
then up they went on their knees then they clutched at each
other (as in the film we know and love), but suddenly there is
an over the shoulder shot (over HL's shoulder - which is NOT
in either dvd that I own, by the way) followed immediately
by Ennis pushing Jack down but not, seemingly, on all fours.
Then we hear some hushed noises from outside the tent as the
camera lingers. Then comes the morning after scene.

Though it was mighty interesting to see a few seconds of footage
I'd never seen before, still I consider this cowardice on Bravo's part.

Don't think I'll watch anymore of their version of BBM.
Though I do wonder what they'll do with the SNIT and/or
the Reunion.

But I suppose I shouldn't be churlish.
At least they're making an effort to show the film.
Though not intact.
You know, without the startling physical forcefullness of the
FNIT, the film does seem to lose some of its power.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 07:57:14 PM
Bravo,

WHERE THE F**K IS THE 2ND NIGHT IN THE TENT!!!

Jack touches Ennis face and then...over! I noticed they had no problem showing them beat the shit out of each other when it was time to come off the mountain though...f'ed up homophobic society.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 08:04:43 PM
Aguirre: "You weren't getting paid to let the dogs babysit the sheep while you stemmed the rose."

Jack: "According to Bravo and their revisionist editing Ennis and I never really did stem the rose." "I demand an apology and a job..oh, and get Ennis up here too for some more PG13 heavy petting."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 08:21:18 PM
How pathetic. I really couldn't ever bring myself to watch a bowdlerised version. It's not as if there's all that much in it anyway. Heavens, it wasn't R-rated or anything.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 08:24:28 PM
No "back door lovin" for Alma either....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 08:25:35 PM
Jack Fredrick Twist! They left in the WHOLE kiss!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 08:27:33 PM
I stopped watching where Jack is in the bar and the bartender says "100,000 dollar tractors", the rest of the line was cut.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mh on June 27, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
The scene with jack and lurene in the car was different
and
I LOL at Jack Frederick Twist. 

I didn't know this was on until husband told me so I missed the alternate FNIT scene.  I hope someone DVR'd it and will upload to youtube.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 08:39:42 PM
I stopped watching where Jack is in the bar and the bartender says "100,000 dollar tractors", the rest of the line was cut.


I missed the "and shit" line being cut...this is so pathetic it's laughable. Where they chose to drop in their annoying, self promoting commercials is teeth gnashing as well.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 08:41:39 PM
By the way things are going, it sounds is if this might be the version with the happy ending.

I wish I knew how to quit you!

Well, shucks, Jack, why didn't you just say so?

Ennis falls to knees.

Jack Frederick Twist, will you do me the honor of becomin my wife? No sex involved, obviously.

They hold hands then ride off into the sunset.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 08:42:57 PM
I wasn't going to record it but they're showing it again tonight, so I think I will.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 08:46:15 PM
I'm wondering about that extra footage that Rosewood mentioned. Surely there's no way Ang would allow his film to be tampered with? Here we are all dying for an extra still from the film, so how did this over-the-shoulder shot happen? I'm not watching BTW. The cable doesn't stretch this far  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Melisande on June 27, 2008, 08:47:28 PM

{snips}

Ennis falls to knees.

. . . No sex involved, obviously.



This is happy?  :D

It's sad to think that people are seeing this version, but, I guess, good that they're seeing it at all.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 27, 2008, 08:50:23 PM
maybe it will make them curious enough to see the real deal.

sounds like they've butchered it up pretty well.

::)

LMAO at Jack Frederick Twist.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 08:52:46 PM
Epilogue to the "happy" ending:

With the divesiture of AT&T in to "baby" bells in January of 1982 Ennis and Jack were now able to continue their "association" chastely and by phone, with competition providing better long distance rates than ever before. "I'll call ya every four fuckin' years."

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 09:00:16 PM
Epilogue to the "happy" ending:

With the divesiture of AT&T in to "baby" bells in January of 1982 Ennis and Jack were now able to continue their "association" chastely and by phone, with competition providing better long distance rates than ever before. "I'll call ya every four fuckin'Frederick years."



Sorry  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:03:11 PM
Thanks for editing my obsenity...how did that slip through?! Guess that job butchering films for Bravo to air on basic cable is out of the question now.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 09:07:23 PM
Epilogue to the "happy" ending:

With the divesiture of AT&T in to "baby" bells in January of 1982 Ennis and Jack were now able to continue their "association" chastely and by phone, with competition providing better long distance rates than ever before. "I'll call ya every four fuckin'Frederick years."



Sorry  ;D

Oh my god, it's Mr Tweedley  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 09:07:48 PM
I guess it could have been edited to "horrible' as in "You wanna live your miserable, horrible, life.. go right ahead"

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 09:08:57 PM
Jack Horrible Twist just doesn't work for me (or Aguirre  ;))
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:10:17 PM
That really would be...horrible. :P
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 09:12:57 PM
This reminds me of a concert in Bay City a couple of years ago. Kevin Cole was playing "Rhapsody in Blue", and about 2/3 into the piece he lost it. I don't know what the Frederick he was playing, but it wasn't Gershwin. And Kevin is an outstanding pianist. He eventually found his place and finished beautifully, but it was really weird.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:17:13 PM
I just went on the Bravo website, just to see what they might be saying about this...event...and there is not one mention of BBM anywhere...it was eerie like this is not even happening...or is it? I am freaking the Fredrick out of myself!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 09:17:42 PM
"Rhapsody In Blue" - hmmmm, maybe he suddenly got a vision of Jake's eyes. That would be enough to make most people lose their place.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 09:18:48 PM
I just went on the Bravo website, just to see what they might be saying about this...event...and there is not one mention of BBM anywhere...it was eerie like this is not even happening...or is it? I am freaking the Fredrick out of myself!

Surely that should be the Fred?  ;= ;=
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:21:28 PM
Fred or Fredrick it's freaked!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 09:24:14 PM
The last scene together is coming up. I can't wait to hear Ennis say "Get the Fred offa me"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Melisande on June 27, 2008, 09:25:49 PM
Well, Fred Bravo.

I don't know the rules for what they can show and can't. Maybe they did the best they could.

What I'm really wondering about is people who are inspired by Heath's performance in TDK to watch Brokeback for the first time. Surely there will be some, and just as surely, some will be deeply affected.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:27:21 PM
Jack: "There is somethin' I been meaning to tell you too...my middle name ain't Fred."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:29:54 PM
Well, Fred Bravo.

I don't know the rules for what they can show and can't. Maybe they did the best they could.

What I'm really wondering about is people who are inspired by Heath's performance in TDK to watch Brokeback for the first time. Surely there will be some, and just as surely, some will be deeply affected.

You are right...I kid with a mixture of misplaced anger and love...just like with my family!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:31:10 PM
Frickin' Flings with Fred... :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 09:34:56 PM
I feel horrible

That was the first time I laughed during that final scene together. It's usually where I start crying.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 09:36:38 PM
I gotta get me one of those high-altitude flings.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on June 27, 2008, 09:38:58 PM
Bravo,

WHERE THE F**K IS THE 2ND NIGHT IN THE TENT!!!

Jack touches Ennis face and then...over! I noticed they had no problem showing them beat the shit out of each other when it was time to come off the mountain though...f'ed up homophobic society.

No SNIT?
Geez.

Well, luckily I didn't hang around long enough.
Honestly can't you see what they've done?
Not only have they merely IMPLIED the FNIT, but they've taken
love out of the equasion. No SNIT, no tenderness shown.
No intensity of emotion.
No love shared. (At least for us to see.)
No Ennis giving himself over to Jack.
No groundwork for what happens over the next
twenty years.

Then why the overwhelming emotional force of the Reunion?
What was it all about?
John Frederick Twist.
Geez.

So then, if you've seen the film in this butchered version,
you simply haven't seen BBM. You haven't seen the
love, therefore you don't get the full meaning of the shirts OR
for that matter, truly understand why the fuss.

Though oddly, the film minus the SNIT is more like the short story
I suppose.

It is ENTIRELY possible that this version was approved by the film makers
and/or production company as some kind of acceptable compromise.
(Hard to believe.)
Otherwise where would they have gotten that split-second over-the-shoulder shot?

Makes me think this was sanctioned in some way.
Hadda be.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:39:56 PM
I know what you mean...I was in Fort MacLeod Alberta standing in front of the laundry apartment bawling my eyes out two weeks ago tomorrow...couldn't they have done this with "limited commercial interuptions" at least?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on June 27, 2008, 09:48:43 PM
I know what you mean...I was in Fort MacLeod Alberta standing in front of the laundry apartment bawling my eyes out two weeks ago tomorrow...couldn't they have done this with "limited commercial interuptions" at least?

It should be obvious that the film was cut to ribbons.
Even if you'd never seen it before. Don't you think, tt?

One can only hope that those who've seen this travesty will be curious enough to
seek out the dvd and watch the 'real' BBM.

This film on Bravo should have been An Event.
Limited commercial interruption is the very least they could have done.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 09:51:20 PM
With the deletions, edits, changes and jarring commercial interruptions I would think the uninitiated would be unmoved and confused.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:03:21 PM
Ok that was fucked up.

They zipped through the end credits with NO MUSIC, and then started the second showing of the movie while the credits were still running.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 10:03:28 PM
AHHHHH, now 1/2 the screen is the start of the movie (2nd time) and the other 1/2 of the screen is the credits from the first...this isn't "Weekend at Bernie's" a little more respect, a little less commerce!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 10:05:31 PM
The only thing I liked about this was trading quips with BayCityJohn and the rest of the gang...Thanks!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:06:05 PM
I had a good time too :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:12:36 PM
(http://baycityforums.com/images/SimpsonsScream.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: rabbar on June 27, 2008, 10:12:57 PM
I expected them to fade to black right before the reunion kiss.
Figured we see Ennis pushing Jack back and then a slow fadeout, so they fooled me there.

Them high altitude flings are Fredericking hard to bear, ain't they?

I would love to meet the "editors" of this travesty.
Wonder how they let "apple sized balls" slip by them.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:17:05 PM
I'm recording the 2nd broadcast now.

I figure it'll make a nice party flick at a future gathering.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 10:18:27 PM
There was no man trying to touch the 'balls the size of apples' just men trying to shoot them off...

How do you edit J & E mid-coversation 'about this food situation'????
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 10:21:18 PM
I love that the first two commercials were liquor and hershey bars!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:27:37 PM
Hell, you might as well turn the movie into a cartoon.

Ok I think I will  ;D

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8125341902068184287 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8125341902068184287)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 10:42:51 PM
Did you really do that? It was great...better than the movie on Bravo...what was it called, "The Debacle"?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:47:39 PM
Thank you. Yes I made that video about 2 years ago.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 10:48:50 PM
Did you really do that? It was great...better than the movie on Bravo...what was it called, "The Debacle"?

or "Mounting Frederick"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 11:07:41 PM
I turned off "Wrong Said Fred" and went and watched your vid again...very impressive!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 27, 2008, 11:14:02 PM
I had that vid on youtube for a long time, but I deleted it back in January when I was having my breakdown over Heath and Jackie.

I think I'll put it back on Youtube.


I made another one, a musical, called "The HEATHer on the Hill", but it's a little bizzare. I might re-upload that one too.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 27, 2008, 11:22:10 PM
Keep me posted if and when you do put it back on youtube.

I have to say I feel like I did Crack, I am so disoriented by the viewing tonight.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 27, 2008, 11:24:22 PM
I had a good time too :)


Me too, and I wasn't even watching.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Jack Frederick Twist on June 28, 2008, 12:26:21 AM
I really liked the movie on Bravo tonight. Now I want to see it on the big screen.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 28, 2008, 02:00:30 AM
hi, 'Fred'.. ;D ;D..yeah, didn't you just love the whitewashing of the movie on bravo? I got tired of hearing Jack say, 'friggin' instead of F*ckin'. Have you seen the original version? Now that is something to behold...the tent scene-both of them-,  are much longer and more, um, enlightening that what you saw on Bravo. I'd get the DVD, pronto, if you have not seen it.  ;) :P :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 03:42:47 AM
Jack Frederick Twist

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on June 28, 2008, 08:08:04 AM
What are we looking for in the link, John? thanks.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Bethie on June 28, 2008, 08:49:19 AM
Jack Frederick Twist

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Says I can't view this in my country!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: huntinbuddy on June 28, 2008, 09:36:50 AM
Well I'm getting in a bit late on the discussion here.  I happened to be flipping through channels last night and did see the "Bravo" version of BBM.  Where the hell did they get this?  Glad I have the real thing on DVD.   Wouldn't Focus / Riverroad, possibly even Ang himself have to approve something like this?  Unfortunately, I see this version as something that turns a great film into something just medicore.  For those who have never seen BBM before, and happen to catch this version they will most likely brush it off as just another so-so film.  Hopefully, they will go out and rent and/or buy the real thing.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 28, 2008, 09:52:10 AM
lmao!

Well Frederick Ay!  I'm glad I missed the watered down version on Bravo! LMAO
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 10:10:00 AM
Jack Frederick Twist

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Says I can't view this in my country!

Texans don't have Youtube?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 10:10:37 AM
What are we looking for in the link, John? thanks.

You'd be looking for Jack Frederick Twist
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 10:15:55 AM
Well I'm getting in a bit late on the discussion here.  I happened to be flipping through channels last night and did see the "Bravo" version of BBM.  Where the hell did they get this?  Glad I have the real thing on DVD.   Wouldn't Focus / Riverroad, possibly even Ang himself have to approve something like this?  Unfortunately, I see this version as something that turns a great film into something just medicore.  For those who have never seen BBM before, and happen to catch this version they will most likely brush it off as just another so-so film.  Hopefully, they will go out and rent and/or buy the real thing.

I don't know, maybe I'm being too hard on Bravo.

I honestly don't know how I could possibly be objective on this after seeing the movie over 60 times.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 10:19:49 AM
Jack Frederick Twist

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cZRbVxVu1zE)
Says I can't view this in my country!

I found the culprit!!

I just got an email from Youtube this morning

Quote

Dear YouTube Member:

NBC Universal has claimed some or all visual content in your video bbr. This claim was made as part of the YouTube Content Identification program.

Your video is no longer visible in some locations, because NBC Universal has chosen to block it.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: graylockV on June 28, 2008, 10:56:52 AM
Jack Frederick Twist!

That made me laugh so hard that I kept laughing all the way through "the kiss."  At least they kept "the kiss" - I suppose because it's been viewed by millions of people millions of time.

Obviously, the Bravo editor somehow got hold of Jack Twists' birth certificate!

The editing on Bravo reminded me of the old afternoon movies they used to show on TV when I was a kid - this was way before cable.  The movie would come on at 4PM and had to be over at 5:30, and of course, it was filled with commercials.  So the local station would "edit" the movies - I should say "butcher" the movies, to make them fit the time slot.  Invariably, when they were showing an old musical, they would cut out any extended dance number!  I mean, who watched those things for the plot?

(I live a few miles north of Fredericksburg - that town's never going to be the same for me - ever again!)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: huntinbuddy on June 28, 2008, 10:58:03 AM
I don't know, maybe I'm being too hard on Bravo.

I honestly don't know how I could possibly be objective on this after seeing the movie over 60 times.

Like yourself John, I've seen BBM many times.  I lost count somewhere past 30 viewings.  I know I have each line memorized, and literally every scene burned into my brain.  What offended me the most was not the fact they had removed the f-word from every scene and either deleted it or replaced it with something else; but they removed key scenes which destroyed the entire structure of the film for me.  It was laughable, but yet sad to view.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 11:09:05 AM

Like yourself John, I've seen BBM many times.  I lost count somewhere past 30 viewings.  I know I have each line memorized, and literally every scene burned into my brain.  What offended me the most was not the fact they had removed the f-word from every scene and either deleted it or replaced it with something else; but they removed key scenes which destroyed the entire structure of the film for me.  It was laughable, but yet sad to view.

You're right.

And it's doubly offensive to have cut the SNIT like they did since they were obviously showing this in conjunction with the GLAAD awards.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: graylockV on June 28, 2008, 11:10:55 AM
What is truly sad is that future showings of BBM on commercial TV will be of this version.  For that reason, I hope it never gets shown - I would prefer that.

I mean, they put a bra on Ann Hathaway in the Thunderbird scene with Jake.  Yet, a moment later, when she bends over him in the back seat, and her back is to us, there are no bra straps!

(Maybe it was one of those bras made out of candy and he chewed it off of her.)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on June 28, 2008, 12:52:43 PM
i can't believe they cut the scenes out
when it was shown on channel 4 they didn't cut out any of the scenes for which i am very greatful. surely more then anything the story wouldn't make any sense
be back later
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Tonkatodd on June 28, 2008, 03:19:07 PM
I really liked the movie on Bravo tonight. Now I want to see it on the big screen.

Jack Fredrick Twist... welcome! I would recommend seeing the "real" film because it is slightly, almost impressatably, better than the soon to be classic Bravo version. ::)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 03:38:49 PM
this is a cap from the FNIT. This shot is not on the dvd and I sure don't remember seeing it in the film.

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/FNIT3.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: sfericsf on June 28, 2008, 03:46:35 PM

this is a cap from the FNIT. This shot is not on the dvd and I sure don't remember seeing it in the film.


Hmmm, interesting...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 03:53:18 PM
Did you ever see this shot Eric?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 28, 2008, 04:27:13 PM
I didn't see this but I think "Frederick" is a scream!!!

Does Jack Frederick Twist got it all figured out?

 ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 28, 2008, 04:31:28 PM
Like I said in Eyelashes, very strange angle!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 04:31:37 PM
Ellen, I think his name got changed to Jack Friggin' Twist in that scene.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 04:32:44 PM
Like I said in Eyelashes, very strange angle!

It threw me right away. 

Todd noticed it too.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 28, 2008, 04:33:51 PM
Is it possible they were able to change the angle somehow?  Computers or sumthin'?  And why?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 28, 2008, 04:36:11 PM
Ellen, I think his name got changed to Jack Friggin' Twist in that scene.


That proves my theory-- the editors had a difficult job, and to cheer themselves up they put in "Frederick" as a joke.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 04:37:45 PM
Is it possible they were able to change the angle somehow?  Computers or sumthin'?  And why?

I suppose there might be a way, but it looks like a real shot.  And I can't imagine Ang Lee allowing a simulated shot like that.

I can't imagine why they added this one. It's not like they needed any filler.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 04:39:00 PM

That proves my theory-- the editors had a difficult job, and to cheer themselves up they put in "Frederick" as a joke.   


It was a pretty good joke. I laughed at it, and it takes a lot to make me laugh.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 28, 2008, 04:43:56 PM
Yeah, it's a very odd thing to see.  Why edit out other stuff, and then add that shot in?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 04:52:35 PM
I'm going to zip through the recording later to see if anything else is different. I didn't watch the whole movie last night, it just didn't look right.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 28, 2008, 04:55:56 PM
Movie don't look right!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mh on June 28, 2008, 05:15:30 PM
Is it possible they were able to change the angle somehow?  Computers or sumthin'?  And why?

I suppose there might be a way, but it looks like a real shot.  And I can't imagine Ang Lee allowing a simulated shot like that.

I can't imagine why they added this one. It's not like they needed any filler.


I think it's just an alternate take than what appeared in the theatrical and dvd release - maybe they save some versions for tv release, just like they re do some of the dialogue for tv as well.  I'm not complaining  - I've always wanted to see all 13 takes!!  2 down, 11 to go.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: mh on June 28, 2008, 05:17:43 PM
I'm going to zip through the recording later to see if anything else is different. I didn't watch the whole movie last night, it just didn't look right.


the scene in the car with lureen is different also - and looks to be before jake asked her if it would be ok to touch her boobs ;=
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 28, 2008, 06:23:43 PM
If they ARE using different footage - and the FNIT shot is definitely genuine and new in my opinion - then I am seriously concerned about who gave them access to it. If it's okay to show this stuff on TV, why can't we total obsessives get it on a DVD? It may only be a shot or two but it's all gold dust to us.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 07:34:40 PM
This is Jack & Lureen in the car. Again, an angle shot that I have never seen before. It's at the very end of the scene.


(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/JackLureen1.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 28, 2008, 07:37:51 PM
I hope you don't mind, John, but I've posted a couple of your screencaps over on the Deleted Scenes and Outtakes thread.

Last night I saw that film society screening of BBM (intact, I'm glad to say) that you notified us Aussies about a while back. Thank you so much for that.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 07:43:37 PM
Thank you! Feel free to post any of my pics anywhere, anytime.

How was the screening? Any newbies?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 07:46:21 PM
This scene may not look different, but it is very different in the version shown on Bravo.

The walls of the tent are moving quite a bit and you can hear a lot of huffin' and puffin'.

It looks like they may have used a computer to make the tent move.

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/Tent1.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 28, 2008, 07:51:12 PM
Nobody I spoke to afterwards had seen it before. Two women complained about the mumbling  ::) but loved the Queensland Blue heelers, one strident woman insisted that Jack had been bashed to death, and of course, plenty said how sad it was. No negative comments about the subject matter, I'm pleased to say. I looked around and wondered who of these newbies would wake up in the middle of the night and find they can't get it out of their head. They take a vote at the end of each screening so I'll check to see what the overall verdict was.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 07:53:19 PM
I guess I haven't been paying attention the last 2 1/2 years.

What is "Queensland Blue heelers" ?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 28, 2008, 07:58:41 PM
The dogs used on the mountain. Annie Proulx said they were blue heelers which is another name for the Australian Cattle Dog. Queensland Blue Heelers is another name. I said that because that's what the woman behind me called them - loudly!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 28, 2008, 08:03:40 PM
These dogs are, by nature, wary. They are naturally cautious, and grow more so as they age. Their cautious nature towards strangers makes them perfect guard dogs, when trained for this task. Cattle Dogs drive cattle by nipping at their heels or tails, but they have also been known to herd other animals, such as ducks, chickens, humans, pigeons, and even cars without instruction when left to their own devices.

No cars on the mountain, fortunately. Cattle dogs also come in red tones.

FWIW, at Lost Cabin, where Ennis and Alma lived when Junior was born, the local big man, J. Okie, from memory, used Australian methods of sheep shearing and wool classification. I am a mine of useless information (but I'm good to have on a trivia team).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 08:06:26 PM
I want to be on your Trivia Team!

I wonder whatever happened to Jimmy's board game? We had fun with that.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on June 28, 2008, 08:18:45 PM
I just remembered the BBM trivia questions we were tackling on the long drive back to Denver from Wyoming last year (we were trying to keep our driver, RouxB, awake :D) Things like, how many times do people spit in the film.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on June 28, 2008, 08:27:40 PM
I guess I haven't been paying attention the last 2 1/2 years.

What is "Queensland Blue heelers" ?

In the US they are Australian Cattle Dogs, known as Heelers and they come in red and blue. They're very poplular with horse people and many are still used for herding cattle. The Border Collie is more poplular in the US for herding sheep... the dogs with the Chileans are Border Collies. Both breeds CAN make good pets provided they have a job to do. And their natural tendency to nip (to get whatever they're herding to go in a particular direction) can make them hard on children's feet and legs.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2008, 08:29:31 PM
I recognized the border collies right away. My grandparents had one back in 1963.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: sfericsf on June 28, 2008, 08:49:13 PM
Did you ever see this shot Eric?

I don't believe I've seen this shot/angle...nor the shot/angle with Lureen and Jack in the car you've posted...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 29, 2008, 07:32:12 AM

That proves my theory-- the editors had a difficult job, and to cheer themselves up they put in "Frederick" as a joke.   


It was a pretty good joke. I laughed at it, and it takes a lot to make me laugh.

Yeah, I know!!!!

But we won't give up trying...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on June 29, 2008, 07:45:31 AM
thanks for the new shots/angles
very intresting
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 01, 2008, 06:54:59 PM
I never got a reply from GLAAD, but they did publish my letter on their website.

It's not easy to find, so here's the link:

http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html (http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: UltraViolet on July 02, 2008, 10:07:39 AM
Looks like Bravo listened.  I hope they are properly chastened.

In tents: Bravo responds to the brouhaha over their editing of "Brokeback Mountain" (http://www.afterelton.com/blog/brianjuergens/in-tents-bravo-responds-brouhaha--brokeback-mountain-edit?&comment=46070)

We didn't catch the televised version ourselves but when readers tipped us off to the brouhaha, we contacted Bravo to find out what the deal was.

Here's their response:

"This was an unfortunate mistake. While editing the film for cable broadcast, the kissing scene in question was removed. The scene will appear in all future airings of Brokeback Mountain on Bravo, as it should have been included in its cable premiere."


Disingenuous at best, but here's hoping they do correct their error.  Also, will they show more than the kiss?  I would hope the whole scene is shown.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 02, 2008, 10:21:20 AM
Yes!!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 02, 2008, 11:19:46 AM
Bravo has always been my favorite cable channel!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 02, 2008, 11:37:39 AM
Will be interesting to see if the carry through on that promise.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 02, 2008, 12:02:34 PM
They'll probably never show it again, but I'm keeping an eye out just in case.

At least they admitted their "mistake"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on July 02, 2008, 03:30:32 PM
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-comes-under-fire/2008/07/02/1214950821746.html

The naming of the new performing arts centre after Hollywood star
Heath Ledger has split Perth's arts community.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: divina on July 02, 2008, 09:14:56 PM
That is cool they admitted their mistake. I assumed they'd do what the Academy did when they refused to admit homophobia played any part in Brokeback's BP loss. Definitely a nice surprise although I'm also waiting to see if it actually gets shown again.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 02, 2008, 11:49:49 PM
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-a-fitting-tribute--dad/2008/07/01/1214950820532.html

Re; LisLis's post above: This is an article about Kim Ledger's reaction. Very good reading, and a nice pic of him.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: MountainMouse on July 03, 2008, 11:39:30 AM
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-comes-under-fire/2008/07/02/1214950821746.html

The naming of the new performing arts centre after Hollywood star
Heath Ledger has split Perth's arts community.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts/ledger-theatre-a-fitting-tribute--dad/2008/07/01/1214950820532.html

Re; LisLis's post above: This is an article about Kim Ledger's reaction. Very good reading, and a nice pic of him.

I'm impressed that the WA government grabbed this chance to honour Heath; unusually quick and inspired action by bureaucrats!...that doesn't happen often, so I'm especially happy that it happened there to honour Heath's memory.
As always some small-minded people try to split hairs that he wasn't enough of a theatre actor ...and I bet some still look for scandal re. his sudden death, which probably doesn't sit well with the Perth great and good of the art world. Hypocrites, never know a good thing when they have it or even when it's gone...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 03, 2008, 04:46:02 PM
I have to disagree with that assessment of the controversy over naming a threater after HL. I don't think it is hypocritical of the dissenters to rather have the theater named after a stage actor rather than a movie actor. Seems logical to me.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 03, 2008, 05:32:51 PM
Some of my favorite theatres are named after people who weren't 'stage' actors.

The Al Hirschfeld and the John Golden theatres on Broadway, Her Majesty's and Prince of Wales Theatres in the West End of London just to name a few.

Heath Ledger started out as a stage actor. It's a shame he never got the chance to return to that, but I have a feeling that it's something he would have gotten around to eventually.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on July 03, 2008, 05:36:21 PM
I also understand why the more theatre-oriented types would feel a bit miffed over a hollywood glamour boy being so honoured. Personally, I think the WA govt's decision is wonderful, and Heath deserved it for everything he gave to the acting profession, one way or another, but I can see their point.

Also, Heath's impact on the acting world isn't always appreciated here in his home country. Many people still haven't got past the idea of the "good-looking kid made good" aspects of his career. It doesn't matter how many times they hear how brilliant he was, somewhere in their heads they're still thinking "Yeah, but it's just our Heath, he's not THAT good."

Why not send the Premiere, Alan Carpenter, an email and tell him what a good decision he's made.
http://www.dpc.wa.gov.au/index.cfm?event=contact
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on July 03, 2008, 08:03:35 PM
I agree with most of the above statements that for us, honoring Heath Ledger makes perfect sense.  IMO the controversy may be more rooted in what seems like a hasty decision -- like naming the theater very soon after his death, without a period of discernment to see whether his impact will be long-lasting.

To us Heath means a lot, but to many in Australia it might seem a rather hasty honor.

In the long run it will probably be more accepted.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tfferg on July 03, 2008, 09:12:51 PM
I agree with most of the above statements that for us, honoring Heath Ledger makes perfect sense.  IMO the controversy may be more rooted in what seems like a hasty decision -- like naming the theater very soon after his death, without a period of discernment to see whether his impact will be long-lasting.

To us Heath means a lot, but to many in Australia it might seem a rather hasty honor.

In the long run it will probably be more accepted.

For this Australian, it's not a hasty honour.
As an actor, Heath seemed to disappear into his roles.

A notorious Australian phenomenon is the Tall Poppy Syndrome. Anyone who is very distinguished or famous is liable to be cut down to size eventually.

BTW, I was puzzled by the politician's comment that the name would draw people to the theatre. WTF? Who decides to go to see a theatrical performance on the basis of the name of the theatre?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on July 03, 2008, 09:27:30 PM
It may not actually draw people but it won't shut out a lot of people, I suspect. Here in Melbourne I always feel that I should dress up when going to the Rupert Hamer Hall or whatever. Something named after Heath sounds a bit more accessible.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tfferg on July 03, 2008, 09:30:35 PM
I never got a reply from GLAAD, but they did publish my letter on their website.

It's not easy to find, so here's the link:

http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html (http://glaadorg.nexcess.net/cinequeer/2008/06/30-days-of-pride-whats-on-tv-t-12.html)

Well done, John!

The editing for Bravo cannot possibly have been just a mistake. It's a well-established pattern that homophobic mainstreamers cannot accept the idea that same-sex relationships can be truly loving in the same way as opposite-sex ones. Showing SNIT in full would utterly undermine the notion that same-sex relationships are inauthentic, immoral, perverted and one-dimensionally lust driven.

Although of course I am not in the US with access to Bravo, I never watch movies on commercial TV. I refuse to submit to the butchery of the integrity of any film by commercial breaks or the need to edit them to fit pre-determined timeslots.

I hope that there are people who watched BBM for the first time on Bravo who are inspired to go and find the real thing.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 03, 2008, 10:01:15 PM
OMG I'm so embarrased.

I misspelled 'pivotal'
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on July 03, 2008, 10:40:24 PM
You misspelled embarrassed too  :D :D :D

I'm just glad no-one walks behind me, pointing out my spelling mistakes.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 03, 2008, 10:51:24 PM
I guess I need to start using spellcheck AT MY AGE.

It's a combination of bad eyesight and laziness. I'm usually very picky about my spelling, especially at work. I would never issue a memo without running spellcheck and then having my assistant proofread it.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on July 04, 2008, 02:28:37 AM
http://www.hollywoodchamber.net/icons/faq.asp

A Star on the Walk of Fame for Heath Ledger?

5 years will have passed around the time of the Brokeback Mountain
Opera premiere (scheduled for 2013).

How to get a "letter of agreement" and obtain $25,000?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 04, 2008, 01:04:58 PM
I'm 100% sure this will happen.

How to raise $25,000?  I don't think that would be a problem at all.

If I'm still alive I'll be there when the star get placed.

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/HL.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 04, 2008, 08:12:43 PM
Conidering the generosity on this forum, we could probably have $25000 by the end of next week.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on July 06, 2008, 12:54:43 AM
What needs to be done to get permission for a Walk of Fame Star
from his representative(s) so that raising the $25,000 can begin?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 06, 2008, 01:26:33 AM
What needs to be done to get permission for a Walk of Fame Star
from his representative(s) so that raising the $25,000 can begin?


Probably have to get in touch with Kim Ledger.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on July 06, 2008, 06:05:29 AM
I'm 100% sure this will happen.

How to raise $25,000?  I don't think that would be a problem at all.

If I'm still alive I'll be there when the star get placed.

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/HL.jpg)

so true
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on July 06, 2008, 04:38:11 PM
Christopher Nolan on Heath in the July 11th edition of Entertainment Weekly:

"The guy had serious nuts.  What I needed was someone who wouldn't be afraid of the comparison with Jack Nicholson.  And then I saw Heath's incredible performance in Brokeback Mountain.  Such a lack of vanity.  This was an actor who wasn't afraid to bury himself in his character - to a massive extent."

I find it so interesting that Nolan looked at that performance and thought to himself, "Now that's the man I need to play the Joker in my next Batman movie."  That would probably have been the last role that would have popped into my head after seeing Heath play Ennis.  Yet, it shows just how fine an eye for acting - and a gift for understanding actors - Nolan must have to be able to make such a leap.  It's almost as impressive to me as Ang's being able to look at much of Heath's earlier work and think that the actor would fit so well in the Ennis role.  I guess that's why they're making movies and I'm not.   ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on July 08, 2008, 02:41:53 PM
Somewhere I read or heard that it was Heath's work in Monster's Ball that clinched it for Ang Lee.  I'm embarrassed to admit that Heath didn't even register w/ me when I first saw the film.  Forget I said that.  Musta left my eyes and my gonads at home.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 08, 2008, 05:13:07 PM
I "saw" Heath in Monster's Ball and The Patriot but the first movie I ever remembered his NAME from was A Knight's Tale. I'm not sure the order I saw them in which doesn't depend on release dates since I see most films on dvd. And of course, he starred in Knight. Funny that, eh, from one knight to another.

As for Jake, the only movie I saw him in before Brokeback was The Day After Tomorrow, which I loved and had seen a number of times. But I didn't have a clue who he was when I heard he was in the gay cowboy movie.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on July 08, 2008, 10:12:33 PM
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/2008-07/09/content_6831416.htm

Michelle Williams is making a movie about Heath Ledger so their
two-year-old daughter can see what her dad was really like.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on July 10, 2008, 03:03:45 AM
http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A48075

Heath Ledger Tribute
July 11-17
Monster's Ball at 2:30, 9:45 p.m.
Brothers Grimm at 2:40 p.m.
Candy at 5:05 p.m.
Brokeback Mountain at 7:15 p.m.
Lords of Dogtown at 9:50 p.m.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on July 10, 2008, 03:35:42 AM
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/2008-07/09/content_6831416.htm

Michelle Williams is making a movie about Heath Ledger so their
two-year-old daughter can see what her dad was really like.


that is such a good idea and the sweetest thing ive ever heard! bless michelle
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on July 10, 2008, 08:53:19 AM
I'd be happy to contribute to get Heath's star on the Walk of Fame, but it seems to me that his agent and agency would be happy to pay for it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 12, 2008, 07:26:21 AM
The Dark Knight
"almost lives up to hype"

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews/General-Entertainment/20080712/Film-Review-The-Dark-Knight.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: MountainMouse on July 12, 2008, 06:36:46 PM
Some great postings about Heath here might be missing their target audience

Guys, there's a great thread just for Dark Knight here

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=24144.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=24144.0)


and for all things Heath

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=30193.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=30193.0)

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=26371.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=26371.0)


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on July 17, 2008, 12:23:25 AM
Ah...the good old days.  I just came upon a site from early 2006 talking about how well BBM was doing at the box office in Montana, much to the chagrin of right-wing pundits like Bill O'Reilly who, of course, predicted it would never find a receptive audience in a rural area like that.  I guess BBM overturned quite a lot of conventional wisdom back in the day.   ;)

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2006/02/04/montana/a07020406_02.txt?rating=true

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 17, 2008, 09:22:59 AM
Maggie Gyllenhaal was just on Regis and Kelly  which I watched just to see her and she had some nice things to say about HL. She was emotional when talking about him, so it wasn't just run-of-the-mill studio-speak. I'm still teary eyed.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 17, 2008, 08:50:43 PM
Guess what's playing on Bravo this weekend.  Will they keep their promise?

Brokeback Mountain

BRAVO Sat 7/19 8:00 PM

BRAVO Sat 7/19 11:00 PM

BRAVO Sun 7/20 8:30 AM

BRAVO Mon 7/28 8:00 AM

BRAVO Tue 7/29 1:00 AM

http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCSGrid.do?aid=twop&stnNum=10057&channel=15&channelCnt=15 (http://affiliate.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCSGrid.do?aid=twop&stnNum=10057&channel=15&channelCnt=15)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on July 18, 2008, 11:19:52 AM
Here's a duplicate post from Scene-by-Scene, "Last scene w/ Ennis and Jack together."

Although this isn't quite their last scene together, it's so close that I thought this was the best place to post it.  I have no idea if anyone has commented on this.

It's their last night together in the tent.  After 105 viewings, I noticed that Ennis's mouth twitches.  I rewound to double-check.  We're supposed to concentrate on Ennis's hand around Jack.  I think my eyes always went to the hand, to their faces, and then back to the hand.  Last night, though, I happened to be looking at Ennis's face at the right moment.

So I've had an evening to figure out if there was meaning to this twitch.  As I've said more than once, nothing in this film happens by accident.  The best I can do is:  Ennis is dreaming about Jack, and he smiles.  Maybe he figured out at the campfire that Jack came as close he could to telling Ennis he loved him.  Maybe not, because it's been theorized that it took the shirts to get Ennis to figure it out.  But what Jack said must have touched him and made him happy.

Off the subject, but I want to plug it whenever I can:  http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33

That music is so achingly beautiful.  I listen to it 5-10 times a day at work.  There's a clip w/ Ennis smoking that is painful to watch.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: frunner on July 18, 2008, 04:22:52 PM
Off the subject, but I want to plug it whenever I can:  http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33

That music is so achingly beautiful.  I listen to it 5-10 times a day at work.  There's a clip w/ Ennis smoking that is painful to watch.

I guess you know already, the music is from Shawshank Redemption Soundtrack, by Thomas Newman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZcZniiGzpA
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on July 18, 2008, 04:39:32 PM
A thousand thanks for confirming that.  I'd asked the question previously, but in the context of the BBM trailer, and wasn't sure if the Shawshank answer was referring to the gorgeous music at the end of the trailer (and at Buzz Images), or the nice music at the beginning of the trailer.  You've clinched it, and now I know what CD to buy.  I'd sent Buzz Images an e-mail asking the question, but they never repiled.

I came across the Buzz Images clip shortly after Heath died.  Great music to cry to. 

I realized recently that I've cried more over Heath's death than anything else in my life.  I have a few theories on why that is:

-- I was in love with Heath
-- I was in love with Ennis
-- In a big way Ennis is now dead, too. 

An interesting near-coincidence is that after I saw BBM, for about the next 6 weeks if I thought or talked about the film for more than about 90 seconds, I started crying.  But that didn't happen everyday.  And when Heath died, I cried everyday for exactly 4 weeks.  Those crying jags are in the same ballpark.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 20, 2008, 12:26:17 AM
Bravo kept their word.  The SNIT was shown intact tonight.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: sheba on July 20, 2008, 03:44:56 AM
Hiya, not sure if I'm posting this in the right place and if you've heard it before but there's going to be a showing of BBM on the big screen (I think it might be a big outdoor screening)  at the Film4 Festival at Somerset House, London, England on Saturday 2nd August 2008.  There are still some tickets left but a little pricey. 

http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets (http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on July 20, 2008, 08:12:20 AM
Bravo kept their word.  The SNIT was shown intact tonight.

Oh, cool-I think its on again tonight. I missed it last night, having gone to TDK, then dinner. I actually forgot about it later....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on July 21, 2008, 07:08:17 AM
Hiya, not sure if I'm posting this in the right place and if you've heard it before but there's going to be a showing of BBM on the big screen (I think it might be a big outdoor screening)  at the Film4 Festival at Somerset House, London, England on Saturday 2nd August 2008.  There are still some tickets left but a little pricey. 

http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets (http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets)


great calendar item -- thanks
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: MountainMouse on July 21, 2008, 05:21:32 PM
Hiya, not sure if I'm posting this in the right place and if you've heard it before but there's going to be a showing of BBM on the big screen (I think it might be a big outdoor screening)  at the Film4 Festival at Somerset House, London, England on Saturday 2nd August 2008.  There are still some tickets left but a little pricey. 

http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets (http://independent.viagogo.co.uk/Arts-and-Theatre-Tickets/Family/Film4-Festival-at-Somerset-House-Tickets)

Thanks Sheba! I'm going to check if there are any tickets left.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 05, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
I'm combining a couple of posts I just made on two other threads.

First, in the Dozy Embrace, I've always thought Jack and Ennis had had sex after dinner.  That fit well w/ Jack's expression, both as Ennis embraces him and as Ennis rides away.  The connection I made was between the sexual afterglow and the glow of the campfire, which I think was down to its embers. 

Second, when Ennis is reading Jack's reunion postcard, his lips move as he reads what Jack wrote.  I like to think that was Heath's idea.  For the past 2.5 years, I must have been looking at Ennis's eyes.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 05, 2008, 04:54:59 PM
Yeah! But I've been looking at his lips! :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Orleanas on August 11, 2008, 10:13:17 AM
I hope that there are people who watched BBM for the first time on Bravo who are inspired to go and find the real thing.
I didn't actually get to watch the whole film when it premiered on Bravo. Thought I had missed out on being part of history again with this film when I didn't get to see all of it that night, but I guess I got lucky and dodged the bullet of mediocrity on this one. It was tuning in at the moment of the reunion kiss one or two days later on BRAVO that not only inspired but propelled me to buy the DVD. I guess I had seen all I was meant to see on BRAVO, thank goodness.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on August 13, 2008, 10:37:22 AM
I just came across this review of the film from Dec. '05 which I thought I'd share.  It has some wonderful things to say not just about the movie itself but about Heath's amazing performance. 

http://www.filmjerk.com/reviews/article.php?id_rev=722
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on August 13, 2008, 12:19:44 PM
Great review, Roland! Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 13, 2008, 12:33:35 PM
Can I second that. A super and perceptive review. Thank you for posting the link.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on August 15, 2008, 06:22:22 PM
There is an interesting profile of Gustavo Santaolalla and his work by  Larry Rohter in today's New York Times.  At one point the article says that he is innovative in the way he works because he likes to write the music before the film is shot.  Then comes the following paragraphs.

Ang Lee, the director of “Brokeback Mountain,” said he had never worked that way until meeting Mr. Santaolalla, but found the process to be “very organic.” He told Mr. Santaolalla he was seeking a sound that was “sparse and yearning,” sent him a script, and two weeks later received a CD, which, he said, he initially thought contained samples of Mr. Santaolalla’s previous work. Instead, it turned out to be new compositions intended for “Brokeback Mountain.”

“Usually you don’t talk about the music until after the first cut,” Mr. Lee said, “but with Gustavo, I had music for seven scenes while we were still in preproduction, in fact before we had even scouted for locations. That was a luxury that helped inspire me to visualize the film and find its heart. And when the major actors were rehearsing I shared the music with them, to set a tone for what we were doing.”


Here is the link to the entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/arts/music/15gus.html?_r=1&ref=music&oref=slogin
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on August 15, 2008, 10:15:00 PM
I find Gustavo's scope incredible... from his haunting guitar themes to the country western tunes. Amazing versitility.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on August 17, 2008, 01:06:03 PM
Here's a great review of the film by someone who says he didn't think much of Heath as an actor until he saw BBM (he now goes by the name heathledgerfan,so I guess he was really impressed).  But it is the responses to the article that are most of interest, since several of the writers state they never saw the movie until after Heath's death and were totally blown away by both the film and his performance. 

http://heathandrewledger.com/?p=30&cp=1#comments
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 17, 2008, 01:24:42 PM
New job anyone?

Apparently MI5 are looking to recruit gay people as spies..............

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on August 17, 2008, 06:53:14 PM
Here's a great review of the film by someone who says he didn't think much of Heath as an actor until he saw BBM (he now goes by the name heathledgerfan,so I guess he was really impressed).  But it is the responses to the article that are most of interest, since several of the writers state they never saw the movie until after Heath's death and were totally blown away by both the film and his performance. 

http://heathandrewledger.com/?p=30&cp=1#comments

Seems there are a lot of folk like that. It's one of the few good things to come out of his death. I guess we have to make the most of them. There have certainly been quite a few new members here because of it. Heath would have appreciated having it as part of his legacy. He was so proud (and humble) about being able to play a part in opening people's minds. Lovely man.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 17, 2008, 07:17:51 PM
New job anyone?

Apparently MI5 are looking to recruit gay people as spies..............

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece)


I really liked that movie, about Guy Burgess; what was it called, 'The Eight Man' or something like that? Interesting stuff. 'Vulnerable to blackmail'-no kidding.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on August 18, 2008, 09:58:51 AM
Apparently MI5 are looking to recruit gay people as spies..............

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4547867.ece)
The best comment on that article was:  "The service has always been run by the public school educated, so there should be little change."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 18, 2008, 01:34:25 PM
I'd like to send Ang Lee a fan letter complimenting him on one of his movies.  Does anyone have an address, maybe his agent's?

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on August 19, 2008, 02:50:06 AM
I've read somewhere on the forum recently, can't remember where, that some people have the short story on their computers.  That would be good - could anyone tell me how to do that please?

And another thing - I've also seen somewhere, possibly FNIT or SNIT but posted quite a long time ago, a link to a site with hundreds of screenshots from the film.  I know it still worked, but I didn't make a note of it - any ideas?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 19, 2008, 02:56:38 AM
It used to available on the New Yorker site, but they have taken it down now, I don't know if it is avaiable anywhere else. As it is I have two copies of the book one upstairs and one downstairs, so I always have it to hand..................

There are lots of screenshots here:  http://www.iheartjakemedia.com/ (http://www.iheartjakemedia.com/) and the rest of the scenery isn't bad either. :D

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on August 19, 2008, 03:10:20 AM
Thanks, Janjo.  I've registered and the pictures are great. :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on August 19, 2008, 05:45:35 AM
http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?page=movies/Brokeback

This site is probably what you are after, Cally.

Try this one for a Word doc of BBM

bloggingknight.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/brokeback-mountain.doc
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on August 19, 2008, 08:08:58 AM
Cally, this is the one I use for screen shots:
http://web.mac.com/sic3/bbm/f/galeria.htm

And I have a copy of the short story on my website... copied from The New Yorker site a couple years ago...
(http://whoodlesanddoodles.com)
the link to it is on the left side of my homepage, at the bottom of "Articles."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on August 19, 2008, 09:53:52 AM
Many thanks for all those - I found them all except the blogging knight one - got the website but not the document.  But anyway got the story from yours, Doodler (loved the puppies :))
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 20, 2008, 08:48:44 AM
I just posted this on the Symbolism and Imagery thread:

While Jack and Ennis are saying goodbye at Jack's truck in Signal, Ennis is squinting during the entire scene. 

It could mean any of several things:

-- he doesn't want to see how hurt Jack is
-- he doesn't want to see Jack for what Jack is
-- he doesn't want to see Jack because he would see part of himself in Jack

Of course, I'm pretty sure the sun is in Ennis's eyes, but it isn't by accident.
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on August 20, 2008, 03:01:47 PM
yeah the suns in his eyes, but i always thought he was trying not to cry and not wanting jack to see how upset and hurt he is
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 20, 2008, 03:58:38 PM
I hadn't thought of that.

It fits well w/ what happens to Ennis in the alley.

The next time I watch it, I'll check for how much time each spends looking at the other versus the ground.  My memory is that Jack stares at Ennis a lot.

Many moons ago, I posted about the recurrence of Jack saying "all right" when he's not getting what he wants.  At the end of this scene, he says "Right," and I think "All right" would have worked and would have helped my theory.  It's all about me, I guess.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 21, 2008, 09:01:20 AM
The Synbolism and Imagery thread seems to have disappeared.  Does anybody know what happened?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 21, 2008, 09:40:55 AM
The Synbolism and Imagery thread seems to have disappeared.  Does anybody know what happened?


Good question.  I have no idea.

The thread is still here, but I don't see it listed.

very strange.


http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9675 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9675)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 21, 2008, 09:47:36 AM
Ok I think I fixed it.  It's showing up now.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: o2binla on August 21, 2008, 10:51:48 PM
yeah the suns in his eyes, but i always thought he was trying not to cry and not wanting jack to see how upset and hurt he is

It's a detail out of the SS.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on August 23, 2008, 12:46:04 AM
What a beautiful tribute to Heath and his BBM legacy:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-gregory/heath-ledger-two-shirts-_b_82971.html
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on August 23, 2008, 01:05:51 AM
^^^^^^^^^^

That was really beautiful.....

Thx for posting it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 26, 2008, 02:43:19 PM
Heath's death is similar to the death of a child.

Nobody plans to bury a child.  You sign up to bury your parents and you know you have a 40-60% chance of burying your spouse or partner.  But the risk of one of your kids dying before you do is very small.

And so it is with a 28-year-old actor, almost 30 years younger than I am. 

Also, you never get over it.  Seven months after Heath died, that's what it feels like.  I predict it won't feel like that forever, but except for the fact that I hardly cry at all now, it seems just as awful today as it did when it happened. 

And, based on my reaction to his death, I guess I was in love with him (or Ennis).  Though part of the reaction is that Ennis is now dead.  This part gets complicated
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Orleanas on August 26, 2008, 04:15:34 PM
Heath's death is similar to the death of a child.

Nobody plans to bury a child.  You sign up to bury your parents and you know you have a 40-60% chance of burying your spouse or partner.  But the risk of one of your kids dying before you do is very small.

And so it is with a 28-year-old actor, almost 30 years younger than I am. 

Also, you never get over it.  Seven months after Heath died, that's what it feels like.  I predict it won't feel like that forever, but except for the fact that I hardly cry at all now, it seems just as awful today as it did when it happened. 

And, based on my reaction to his death, I guess I was in love with him (or Ennis).  Though part of the reaction is that Ennis is now dead.  This part gets complicated

You know, Marc, before I had seen BBM I would have thought that something was wrong with you or that you needed to get a life, because I had never really understood or accepted how some could get emotionally attached to someone they've never met or even know--in the case of actors--a mirage.  After seeing BBM, however, (which I saw after TDK), I completely understand what you mean. Perhaps it is for this reason (Heath's unexpected and shocking death) that I am as affected by BBM as I am today. Heath embodied Ennis so much that by the end, I am not just gireving for Ennis's loss of Jack, but also for OUR loss of Heath, and in some ways, our desire to perpetuate Ennis as a character, who I would have been thrilled to have Heath reflect on years from now.

So Marc, I understand and hope that there comes a time in the near future when the pain won't still be so raw.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 26, 2008, 04:57:33 PM
If I hadn't experienced Brokeback, I wouldn't have believed it could happen.  My usual speech -- and I've posted it before -- is this:

For the first month or so after I saw the movie, if I thought or talked about it for more than 90 seconds, I'd start crying.  And that happened at work, in friends' kitchens, going to sleep, and walking on the sidewalk.  It wasn't everyday, but it could have been.

After Heath died, I cried everyday for 4 weeks.  His death affected me more than anybody else's, ever.

Who would have believed such a thing was possible?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Orleanas on August 26, 2008, 09:59:18 PM
If I hadn't experienced Brokeback, I wouldn't have believed it could happen.  My usual speech -- and I've posted it before -- is this:

For the first month or so after I saw the movie, if I thought or talked about it for more than 90 seconds, I'd start crying.  And that happened at work, in friends' kitchens, going to sleep, and walking on the sidewalk.  It wasn't everyday, but it could have been.

After Heath died, I cried everyday for 4 weeks.  His death affected me more than anybody else's, ever.

Who would have believed such a thing was possible?
I didn't think such a thing was possible either, but after I saw the film, I became so...involved with the actors--and Heath in particular--that I shocked myself and friends. I saw BBM back to back the first time I saw it (on DVD), finished @ 4:30+ am, cried each time like I'd NEVER cried before just by watching a film (the ugly, can't breathe kind of cry) and became obsessed with it (still am as I religiously read these boards). Since I kinda understand why I reacted as I did to this film, and am really interested in knowing why others reacted as they did, what about it got to you so much, Marc? (And anyone else who wishes to answer). Are you affected in the same way today as you had when you first saw it?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on August 27, 2008, 07:38:16 PM
Despite the thousands of words I've written on the book and film discussion threads, analysing every last aspect, whenever I watch the film it hits me in the same way it did that first time (although without the shock, of course, since I know what's going to happen). I cry at the same scenes (and sometimes at others) and I still wind up a helpless sobbing mass. Sometimes it's not as bad as other times but the emotional reaction is always the same.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on August 27, 2008, 08:34:32 PM
I choke up on probably 95% of my viewings.

It always starts when Ennis breaks down on their last trip.  "I just can't stand this anymore, Jack."  And he grabs Jack's jacket like he'll never let go.  Another nice touch. 

And in the DE, I can feel Ennis's arms around me, and -- guess what -- Jack doesn't want him to ever let go.  (I just made that connection.  Perhaps I'm not the first.  How can a movie do so many things so well?) 

I have no clear memory of choking up on "Sometimes I miss you so much ... " but it would be a natural moment for it.

The phone call doesn't affect me much these days.  It clobbered me early in my BBM career.  Maybe the emotion has been leavened by noticing that they dressed Lureen up to match the lamp.  It's a great joke.

And of course the shirts in Jack's closet and then in Ennis's. 

And when the closet door closes, and we look out the window and it fades to black, I always think "One of the best movies ever made."

I'll be on vacation the next two weeks, and I'll really miss this place. 

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on August 31, 2008, 09:21:50 AM
Take care, Marc. We'll miss you.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on September 01, 2008, 12:52:53 PM
The Dark Knight over $500 million but not expected to catch Titanic

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-Entertainment\20080831\Film-Dark-Knight.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on September 04, 2008, 01:58:14 PM
why its a much better film then titanic
titanic was crap
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: jack on September 08, 2008, 02:06:01 AM
AFTER ELTON just polled its readers on the 50 best gay movies of all times.  guess which was number 1, by a two to one margin.

yup, BBM.  here is their review, more of an epilogue, really.  i choked up reading it.

Quote
. Brokeback Mountain (2005)

Ferragamos or Birkenstocks? Mojitos or good ol’ beer? Gay men don’t seem to agree on much. But by a wide margin of nearly two-to-one, you chose Brokeback Mountain as the greatest gay movie of all time. And how could it be otherwise? “It’s not ‘gay,’” said some, trying to broaden the film’s appeal, “it’s a ‘universal love story’!”

But is it really? Plenty of heterosexuals have had the experience of hiding a love affair, but how many of them know what it’s like to be forced by society to deny themselves the very possibility of love? This is the daring and fundamentally “gay” question at the heart of Ang Lee’s 2005 masterpiece: can two men simply allow themselves to love each other? And though the movie is set in the past, it is, ultimately, the very choice that every gay man still must make.

Jake Gyllenhaal is flawless as Jack Twist in arguably the movie’s most difficult role. But Heath Ledger’s heartbreaking portrayal of Ennis Del Mar, a walking cautionary tale of homophobia’s logical end result, is a revelation — a total acting transformation made all the more tragic by Ledger’s death earlier this year. But the indignities and injustices that Jack and Ennis faced did not end at Brokeback Mountain’s closing credits. Upon the film’s release, the movie’s makers and fans were subjected to a six-month orgy of tasteless jokes from clueless comedians and bile-filed commentary from right-wing pundits. All of this negativity culminated when the movie, long considered the Oscar front-runner, lost Best Picture to a fine but unremarkable movie called Crash, perhaps the most egregious upset in Oscar history and almost certainly the result of lingering homophobia in Hollywood’s old guard.

But that fusillade of ridicule and outrage is already fading into the gloom of a bigoted past while the movie’s artistry and quiet power shines brighter than ever. Let’s face it: this isn’t just the greatest gay movie of all time, it’s one of the greatest movies ever.


the entire article and list may be found here...

http://www.afterelton.com/movies/2008/9/50greatestgaymovies
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on September 10, 2008, 02:26:18 PM
I just posted this on S&I:

Has anyone commented on why "Signal" is the name of the fictitious town? 

We get a signal from Jack staring at Ennis after he parks the truck, and signals from both of them in the trailer.  I never saw much between them in the bar, though.

As I've said more than twice, nothing in this movie happens by accident.
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on September 10, 2008, 03:10:06 PM
The fictional town of Signal comes from the short story so it predates the film.  Annie Proux may have chosen the name based on a famous lookout point called Signal Mountain above Jackson Hole.  Although not much of a mountain (800 feet) on the top are panoramic views of the Tetons, Jackson Lake, the Snake River and the long valley below according to the Moon Handbook of Wyoming by Don Pitcher.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on September 10, 2008, 05:26:31 PM
Signal is based on the small town of Ten Sleep in the Bighorns, the nearest town to Brokenback Mountain.  AP was asked by the Nature Conservancy to write something inspired by a visit to a Nature Conservancy preserve. She settled on the Ten Sleep Preserve and the landscape is described in most of the stories in the Close Range collection (of which BBM is the final story).

The name Signal most likely comes from the butte which dominates the western end of the town, Signal Butte, but its symbolic use in the story is much more than that. It signals the beginning and end of Jack and Ennis's physical relationship.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 10, 2008, 05:58:47 PM
Tell you what...  I know where Ten Sleep is.

(http://www.baycityforums.com/signal/library.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 10, 2008, 05:59:09 PM
(http://www.baycityforums.com/signal/truck-1.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 10, 2008, 06:04:17 PM
The view from the top of Brokenback Mountain

(http://www.baycityforums.com/images/Bighorn/bh12.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on September 10, 2008, 06:37:54 PM
Tell you what...  I know where Ten Sleep is.

(http://www.baycityforums.com/signal/library.jpg)

Awww, look at that. Two of my favourite men in one photo. Bargain!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on September 11, 2008, 11:17:35 AM

(http://www.baycityforums.com/signal/library.jpg)
Is there a copy of Close Range in Ten Sleep library?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 11, 2008, 11:40:29 AM
Is there a copy of Close Range in Ten Sleep library?

I don't know.  We only stopped there to use their computers to check email and stuff.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on September 11, 2008, 05:58:38 PM

From Annie Proulx's interview with Matthew Testa of Planet Jackson Hole, December 7, 2005

PJH: It seems there could be no other name for this story than "Brokeback Mountain" -- it conjures a remote, sublimely beautiful place, but it's also an ominous name suggestive of physical harm and disfigurement.  Is it real?  How did you find the name?

AP: Brokeback is not a real place.  There is, on a map I once saw, a Break Back Mountain in Wyoming which I have never seeen, but the name worked on several levels and replaced a half a dozen more pedestrian names I had been trying out.
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on September 11, 2008, 07:42:57 PM
According to their catalogue, Ten Sleep Branch Library has copies of Close Range, Brokeback Mountain (which I assume is Close Range republished), that Old Ace In The Hole (which she wrote while "old Ennis" was still rattling around in her brain), Accordian Crimes, Bad Dirt and The Shipping News.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 11, 2008, 07:47:51 PM
But they don't have "Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film"  :o
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on September 11, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
 I only searched on "Proulx" so I didn't notice. Perhaps we should send them one.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on September 13, 2008, 07:32:56 AM
i dunno weather this is the right place to post but

BrokeBack is on Tonight on Film 4 at 9pm for any in the UK
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on September 15, 2008, 01:49:44 AM
Too late for me, Marz!  Hadn't noticed it was on and was away for the weekend - husband kindly told me that he hadn't recorded it (but it would have had infuriating commercials.  Last time it was on BBC2 I think, so no ads.  That was what got me hooked, about 3 months ago  :)).  Interesting review by Barry Norman in the Radio Times.  He gave it 5 stars and quite a sensitive write-up, but a couple of inaccuracies:  about Earl and Rich, 'Two gay men...were murdered', and later, 'Such subterfuge (the fishing trips) cannot last - discovery is inevitable and Ledger's (sic) life is ruined.'   Not quite how I see it.  But overall very positive, and saying what a loss Heath's death is.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on September 17, 2008, 09:09:02 AM
When Ennis gets the first postcard, Alma asks "Is he someone you cowboyed with, or what?"  It's nice that she said "cowboyed" instead of "worked" with or something similar. 
Because as Jack first ropes Ennis he says, "Time to get goin', cowboy."  And Cassie says "Yer stayin' on yer feet, cowboy."  I think the rodeo announcer uses the word once or twice.

To Alma Ennis responds, "No, he rodeos mostly."  L.D. refers to Jack as "Rodeo" twice, when he tosses him the keys and when he takes the carving knife away.  Another nice choice of words.  There's a lack of parallelism because "Rodeo" is not used affectionately, but so be it.

So we have their nicknames also being used as verbs.  Such a nice touch.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on September 19, 2008, 08:48:40 AM
For the last couple of days, the trailer on the BBM webisite doesn't play.  Has anybody else had that problem?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on September 21, 2008, 11:03:07 AM
Can you post the web address you are trying to access please ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on September 22, 2008, 09:10:27 AM
It's the movie's website:  http://www.brokebackmountain.com/splash.html

And still not working this morning.  You click on "watch the trailer," and the trailer window pops up but you don't get the usual rising percentage as it downloads the file.  It shows 100% immediately, but then nothing else happens, even if you click the Play button.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on September 24, 2008, 09:47:39 AM
There is a fault on this site, you may wish to contact the owners and ask them to rectify it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2008, 12:39:47 PM
I'm not sure who the owners are, and I couldn't find a "Contact us" button.  Maybe it's owned by Universal.  Maybe I'll go to their website and send them a note, even though I despise them for the DVDs.  My problem is, I never got a copy of the trailer, and so I'm at their mercy if I want to see it.  Perhaps a Forum member has a wav file.

I noticed in the Gallery that the image of Jack's postcard has "you're" instead of "your."  More typical crap from Universal.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on September 24, 2008, 02:35:42 PM


So we have their nicknames also being used as verbs.  Such a nice touch.



It is actually the other way around. "To rodeo" and "to cowboy' have meaning just as "to walk" and "to drink" have meaning. And Ennis' comment about his dad thinking "all rodeo cowboys are fuck ups" is pretty much the established rule of thought on the matter. There's a world of difference between rodeoing and cowboying. Sort of like "I'm not a doctor but I play one on tv."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on September 24, 2008, 02:46:38 PM
^^^

well, this is not cut and dried.  I agree with your point about the difference, between the two, but I don't really think either word is a verb, but yes they are used as verbs.

I don't think we are supposed to be allowed to turn any old noun into a verb-- but we do it all the time

"pencil" something into our calendars for example --

I'm only saying, "to cowboy" or "to rodeo" probably don't have the same verb pedigree as "to drink" or "to eat."

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on September 24, 2008, 03:24:31 PM
^^^

well, this is not cut and dried.  I agree with your point about the difference, between the two, but I don't really think either word is a verb, but yes they are used as verbs.

I don't think we are supposed to be allowed to turn any old noun into a verb-- but we do it all the time

"pencil" something into our calendars for example --

I'm only saying, "to cowboy" or "to rodeo" probably don't have the same verb pedigree as "to drink" or "to eat."



We say "to dog," "to nag", "to carp," "to harp," "to blog," "to surf," "to ace," "to act," "to..." What's the difference? Without the to, they're all nouns. To pencil something in means to write... what does to rodeo or to cowboy ACTUALLY mean except for what they say?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on September 24, 2008, 05:59:13 PM
We sometimes turn nouns into verbs.  "pencil" is one --   to "blog" is another. 

Marc's original point was that he found it endearing that they turned "cowboy" and "rodeo" into verbs in the movie, and these were also names used for the characters.  I understand what he means, although I wasn't moved to comment.

but I don't know what you meant by saying "It's the other way around" which seems to mean you think somebody turned the verbs "to rodeo" and/or "to cowboy" into nouns.

No --  :P :D -- I think it's the other way around -- somebody turned the nouns into verbs.

I think your point is that if a person rodeos (v.) he is playing cowboy.  I disagree with that, he has to have some good skills to rodeo.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on September 24, 2008, 06:00:52 PM
What timing.  Tonight is the second meeting of my "Fundamentals of linguistics for ESL teachers" class.  To the extent that I plan my future -- which I don't do often -- I plan on retiring from City govt in 3 years and then trying to teach ESL in another country, maybe eastern Europe.

One of the things that have come up is how easy it is in English to turn a noun into a verb.  The textbook uses the example "to BART," which means to take a Bay Area Rapid Transit train someplace.  The textbook's example was that someone had said a destination was "BARTable." 

I told the teacher last week that a colleague had used the term 15 years ago.  I asked how he's gotten somewhere, and he said "I BARTed."  And I said, "Did you apologize after you BARTed?"

So turning nouns into verbs before the dictionary does may seem to play fast and loose with the language, but that's what happens.  I used to get annoyed with folks who don't speak English near as good as I do, but I'm mellowing as I age.

I'd never heard cowboy or rodeo used as a verb before BBM.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on September 26, 2008, 07:22:52 PM
When Ennis gets the first postcard, Alma asks "Is he someone you cowboyed with, or what?"  It's nice that she said "cowboyed" instead of "worked" with or something similar. 
Because as Jack first ropes Ennis he says, "Time to get goin', cowboy."  And Cassie says "Yer stayin' on yer feet, cowboy."  I think the rodeo announcer uses the word once or twice.

To Alma Ennis responds, "No, he rodeos mostly."  L.D. refers to Jack as "Rodeo" twice, when he tosses him the keys and when he takes the carving knife away.  Another nice choice of words.  There's a lack of parallelism because "Rodeo" is not used affectionately, but so be it.

So we have their nicknames also being used as verbs.  Such a nice touch.


Reminds me of people saying that they 'lawyered' for a few years. Some words perhaps lend themselves to being used as verbs, for ease.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: MountainMouse on September 26, 2008, 07:37:51 PM
I understand where doodler is coming from on this one. I think he was correcting Marc's idea that verbs were derived in their dialogue from their nicknames for each other. Doodler says that it would be the other way round i.e. the verbs were already there (as well as the nouns of course, which would come even before the verbs) - in general spoken English, and the nicknames happened later.
Doodler, I hope I haven't misrepresented your words, correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's not forget adjectives too, like in rodeo rider, cowboy hat etc (nouns acting as adjectives to be precise).
So we have the noun rodeo (an event), verb (to rodeo) and adjective (rodeo fuckup) as possible sources for the nickname for Jack.  I'd say that the noun rodeo should be the most likely source.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on September 27, 2008, 06:37:45 AM
and I object to seeing someone emphatically "correct" something that doesn't need correction.

 :)



eta:  it's the way the point was made, not the point itself.



Back to the general discussion of BBM.  thanks all
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on September 27, 2008, 11:28:45 PM
I understand where doodler is coming from on this one. I think he was correcting Marc's idea that verbs were derived in their dialogue from their nicknames for each other. Doodler says that it would be the other way round i.e. the verbs were already there (as well as the nouns of course, which would come even before the verbs) - in general spoken English, and the nicknames happened later.
Doodler, I hope I haven't misrepresented your words, correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's not forget adjectives too, like in rodeo rider, cowboy hat etc (nouns acting as adjectives to be precise).
So we have the noun rodeo (an event), verb (to rodeo) and adjective (rodeo fuckup) as possible sources for the nickname for Jack.  I'd say that the noun rodeo should be the most likely source.   


You are exactly right.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on October 02, 2008, 09:49:35 AM
Any prospects for a BBM calendar for 2009?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Orleanas on October 03, 2008, 12:45:05 AM
...I noticed in the Gallery that the image of Jack's postcard has "you're" instead of "your."  More typical crap from Universal.

Actually, that's not from Universal but from A. Proulx and the text. I think it was done on purpose and is true to the characters. They were not quite educated, so thinking to use the contraction you're and not the possesive your would not have come to mind. As an English teacher, I can tell you that most "educated" people--or at least high schoolers--don't know the difference or care to make use of the correct word either. If you also note on the postcard, there are other grammatical issues going on as well, which I believe was purposeful on the part of the author.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on October 03, 2008, 02:58:22 AM
But the postcard on the site has 'you're' rather than 'your'.  So it's not from Annie Proulx.  I agree that the mispelling was purposeful.  I don't see the point in changing it. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on October 03, 2008, 08:38:36 AM
I meant that Universal -- or whoever is in charge of the site -- didn't use the shot of the postcard from the movie.  It seemed sloppy.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on October 23, 2008, 01:50:18 PM
In a scene that was shot but not in the film, Jack tries to give Ennis a nifty rifle on their third trip to the mountain.  Ennis declines, I think saying it would look funny taking an expensive present from Jack.  I like to think Jack was able to give him the rifle after the divorce.
Title: Jack's Film Mother
Post by: Castro on October 29, 2008, 10:41:00 PM
In a current Advocate review of the new ("Harry Potter") production of Equus, Don Shewey writes of seeing the original broadway version.  That cast included Roberta Maxwell; in an aside he describes her as "...the superb Canadian lesbian actress who played Jack Twist's mother in Brokeback Mountain."  News to me; pleasant to think about.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on November 04, 2008, 09:22:21 AM
I checked IMDB, and there's no bio at all for Roberta Maxwell.  Only her date of birth.

And if that doesn't give away that she's a lesbian, I don't know what would.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on November 04, 2008, 01:54:07 PM
from wikipedia

Roberta Maxwell (born c. 1942) is a Canadian actress.

She began studying for the stage at the age of 12. She joined John Clark for 2 years as the kid co-host of his Junior Magazine series for CBC Television, before becoming the youngest actress apprentice at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Ontario, ready to pursue an acting career, as she explains in a 1958 interview. There, she appeared as Ursula in Much Ado About Nothing, Lady Anne in Richard III, Olivia in Twelfth Night, and Anne in The Merry Wives of Windsor, before going on to England, where she spent 3 years in repertory and made her West End debut with Robert Morley and Molly Picon in A Majority of One.

She debuted on Broadway in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie in 1968, going on to 5 more plays with the Tyrone Guthrie Theatre in Minneapolis. In 1974 she was back on Broadway playing the role of Jill in Equus, which starred Anthony Hopkins. Those, and many more plays, took her on to a successful television and film career.

Her last appearance was in the 2005 film Brokeback Mountain.

it doesn't say anything about her personal life just her year of birth, which seems to be a bit of a guess if the c is there (that means around that time doesn't it?)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on November 12, 2008, 08:29:50 AM
They never took any pictures of each other.  How sad.

Let's hope Ennis asked Jack's mother for one.

I'll copy this to the Relationship thread.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on November 14, 2008, 02:31:15 AM
Brokeback Mountain Opera News

http://broadwayworld.com/article/Brokeback_Mountain_and_Disney_Opera_Shelved_After_Mortiers_Departure_20010101
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on November 30, 2008, 01:05:42 AM
Did anybody else notice that Brokeback Mountain was NOT on Entertainment Weekly's list of the Top 50 sexiest films - even though at least 10 involved same-sex attraction? Shocking.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on November 30, 2008, 01:17:16 PM
^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm.......sexy..??

I never regarded bbm as a sexy film......

Emotional, sad, haunting, life altering, tragic, moving, magic, beautiful, eye opening, serious, and a lot more.......but sexy??
Not in my book anyway.....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: LarryP on November 30, 2008, 04:18:36 PM
Does anyone know where I can find a specific pic from BBM? I don't know how to send it on here.  The pic that I have is flawed.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on November 30, 2008, 04:34:49 PM
Hi Larry. Try http://www.stripedwall.com/gallery.php?page=movies/Brokeback
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on November 30, 2008, 04:36:30 PM
^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm.......sexy..??

I never regarded bbm as a sexy film......

Emotional, sad, haunting, life altering, tragic, moving, magic, beautiful, eye opening, serious, and a lot more.......but sexy??
Not in my book anyway.....

Agreed. I've never thought of it as sexy.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Roland on December 01, 2008, 12:07:56 AM
You've got to be kidding me...the opening scene with Jack and Ennis making only furtive eye contact when they first meet each other, Ennis looking longingly at Jack as he rides away from camp, the reunion scene with all that pent-up passion suddenly being unleashed after all those years, the touching scene in the hotel room, Jack rubbing Ennis' ear by the campfire.  Damn, if all that doesn't qualify as sexy, i don't know what does! 

By the way, here's the list of the Top 25.

http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20241796,00.html

Actually, I guess I shouldn't really be all that surprised by its omission, since BBM missed out on their Most Controversial Movies list a few years back as well.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 01, 2008, 12:10:53 AM
What Roland said ^^^
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 01, 2008, 01:06:31 AM
Hmmm.......sexy..??

I never regarded bbm as a sexy film......

Emotional, sad, haunting, life altering, tragic, moving, magic, beautiful, eye opening, serious, and a lot more.......but sexy??
Not in my book anyway.....

Sason, what do you actually mean by sexy or not sexy?  Do you mean in the effect that the film has on you, or in what it's setting out to do or be?

I'd certainly go along with what Roland says.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on December 01, 2008, 11:21:51 AM
Hmmm........this seems to be more complicated than I first thought.....

All those examples from the film you gave Roland; I love them, but I never thought of them as sexy.......more like profoundly emotional and deeply touching......

As for sexy, Cally, I haven't really thought a lot about what I mean......but I think what I meant was that the film doesn't turn me on sexually. I turns my heart on, not my genitals.....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 01, 2008, 11:27:39 AM
Hmmm........this seems to be more complicated than I first thought.....

All those examples from the film you gave Roland; I love them, but I never thought of them as sexy.......more like profoundly emotional and deeply touching......

As for sexy, Cally, I haven't really thought a lot about what I mean......but I think what I meant was that the film doesn't turn me on sexually. I turns my heart on, not my genitals.....

Really? :o It's both with me!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on December 01, 2008, 11:32:27 AM
Yes, really.....

Now, as for slash, that's quite a different matter..... ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on December 11, 2008, 04:41:40 PM
Turning the calendar page to December was painful, what with the terrific picture of Ennis.  One of life's ironies.  It's a real gift because it wasn't in the movie.

I haven't heard that there will be a BBM calendar for next year, so I guess there won't be.  The concept of "moving on" occurred to me:

-- Ennis moves on from Jack
-- we move on from Heath
-- we move on to different calendars, though I would have happily bought BBM calendars for the rest of my life
-- and in a way, we move on from the film, as it recedes and as we run out of things to say about it.  I predict that, someday, this website will be history.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Queen_Beruthiel on December 13, 2008, 03:12:07 PM
......and as we run out of things to say about it. 

Well, I post on a The Godfather board......  ;) ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on December 13, 2008, 03:16:33 PM

......and as we run out of things to say about it. 

God forbid....!!!!


Well, I post on a The Godfather board......  ;) ;D

That's a relief to hear..... ;) :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on December 13, 2008, 04:58:55 PM
Turning the calendar page to December was painful, what with the terrific picture of Ennis.  One of life's ironies.  It's a real gift because it wasn't in the movie.

I haven't heard that there will be a BBM calendar for next year, so I guess there won't be.  The concept of "moving on" occurred to me:

-- Ennis moves on from Jack
-- we move on from Heath
-- we move on to different calendars, though I would have happily bought BBM calendars for the rest of my life
-- and in a way, we move on from the film, as it recedes and as we run out of things to say about it.  I predict that, someday, this website will be history.




Ennis never moves on from Jack. He lives out the rest of his life warmed by those dreams and rocked by that wind. Jack is with him eternally. No-one else takes his place.

Heathens haven't moved on from Heath and many/most will probably wind up like Elvis or James Dean or Marilyn fans, devoted unto death  :)

Run out of things to say about BBM? But I've barely begun  :D :D


Moving on isn't the same as leaving behind.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 19, 2008, 04:56:35 PM
“Like two skins, one inside the other”: Dual Unity in Brokeback Mountain

David Willbern

Quote
In an interview, Annie Proulx revealed that the impulse for her now-famous story, “Brokeback Mountain,” came from her observation of a middle-aged cowboy in a Wyoming bar, nursing his beer in solitude while gazing at the handsome younger men around him. In another conversation she remarked how especially difficult it was to get inside these particular characters; how the story haunted her for months as she tried to get it right. The question of a writer's uncanny imaginative habitation of characters is in this case intensified by the distances between a New England woman in her seventies and the young, male westerners she invented.

Inventing characters is of course a main work of writers, but I suggest that the sources for Proulx's literary figures emerged not merely from her empathic social observations, and not merely from her personal preference for male characters. Underlying the fictional relationship of two sexually confused, adolescent men is another scene, anchored in our primary emotional life, and perhaps especially available to Annie Proulx as a woman, and mother. In this brief essay I'll examine the story and the film in terms of literary and cinematic texture, and from the perspective of object-relations psychoanalysis.

Quote
I want to consider the two shirts, enfolded or embraced within each other, as models of what Mahler termed “the symbiotic phase” of the maternal dyad, or dual unity, and of what Winnicott called the “transitional object.”

Re-creating and reversing the scene of their standing embrace, when Ennis held Jack from behind, here Jack's shirt envelops Ennis's. The pairing materially produces a intimate symbol: “two skins, … two in one.”  The shirts thus re-enact or re-present a primal bond: the pleasurable and nurturing symbiosis (in Mahler's terms) of mother and child, or as Proulx writes, “the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.”  From another perspective, as an object hanging on a nail in Ennis's trailer, the shirts become a condensed emblem: a refined aesthetic model of a transitional object (in Winnicott's terms) that represents and re-animates in memory and dream his lost relationship with Jack -- and another relationship before that (it is Ennis who recalls his mother during the standing embrace).  “The shadow of their bodies a single column against the rock,” as Proulx describes it. This vivid figure evokes another famous Freudian phrase, appropriately from “Mourning and Melancholia,” connoting psychic development from symbiosis to individuation: “The shadow of the object has fallen on the ego.”14 Torn, dirty, bloodied, the worn fabric holds the crucial past: a link to lost experience, like a child's favorite blanket— a primary con-text. This is I think the deepest texture of unconscious experience in Brokeback Mountain, which is why so many of Proulx's metaphors involve bodily images, smells, noises, warmth and coldness—signs of preverbal life. Perhaps the extraordinary popularity of the story and the film is anchored in this matrix of pre-oedipal, preverbal, universal human experience -- beyond sexuality, straight or gay, and beyond judgment.




http://www.clas.ufl.edu/ipsa/journal/2008_willbern01.shtml (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/ipsa/journal/2008_willbern01.shtml)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on December 20, 2008, 12:15:40 AM
That's an really interesting take - thanks for sharing.   I notice that in the reference notes he says that these particular theories (Mahler, Klein, etc.) are no longer so popular but that he thinks they are relevant to the story.    Sometimes it does feel to me as if the story is embedded in its time and the thinking of the time, rather than being presented as a modern day view.   For instance he also points out this, about Jack's parents:

This family dynamic of distant, angry father and protective, submissive mother neatly sketches or caricatures a textbook case of filial homosexual production as theorized by many psychoanalysts in the 1960s and 70s.

(And circumcision, something his parents did to him, becomes a sort of symbol of Jack's sexuality).

I also like this, on BBM being advertised as a "universal love story":

In this view the story is about two people in love -- truly, deeply -- who through no fault of their own come to grief, in a modern version of the saga of Romeo and Juliet. Although a popular view, it doesn't hold up well under close examination. In fact it's a denial of major themes of both story and film, which are the dangerous -- indeed lethal -- effects of social homophobia, and the devastating psychological effects of self-contempt in a person who represses core parts of his sexual identity.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on December 20, 2008, 04:10:21 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_description

Audio interpretations of BBM movie:

The UK DVD has "English Descriptive Audio"

Do any other video releases of BBM have Descriptive Audio
(the USA video releases don't)?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on December 20, 2008, 07:45:44 AM
Thank you so much John for the quotes and the link!

I find that most interesting.


Quote
Torn, dirty, bloodied, the worn fabric holds the crucial past: a link to lost experience, like a child's favorite blanket— a primary con-text. This is I think the deepest texture of unconscious experience in Brokeback Mountain, which is why so many of Proulx's metaphors involve bodily images, smells, noises, warmth and coldness—signs of preverbal life. Perhaps the extraordinary popularity of the story and the film is anchored in this matrix of pre-oedipal, preverbal, universal human experience -- beyond sexuality, straight or gay, and beyond judgment    

I've been constantly wondering about the film's enormous impact, not only on gay men which I find quite understandable, but also on myself and other straight women. I've been having a feeling there must be something beyond the obvious theme of closeted homosexuality and internal homophobia (without deminishing these strong themes in any way!). But if that was all, why would I and so many other straight women have this overwhelming and life altering experience of the film?

This may very well be the answer to my questions....

THANK YOU JOHN!!!!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 20, 2008, 07:54:20 AM
Thanks for the links, John...Always interesting to see authors discussing the same stuff we've discussed in the Themes threads.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on December 20, 2008, 11:40:20 AM
Turning the calendar page to December was painful, what with the terrific picture of Ennis.  One of life's ironies.  It's a real gift because it wasn't in the movie.

I haven't heard that there will be a BBM calendar for next year, so I guess there won't be.  The concept of "moving on" occurred to me:

-- Ennis moves on from Jack
-- we move on from Heath
-- we move on to different calendars, though I would have happily bought BBM calendars for the rest of my life
-- and in a way, we move on from the film, as it recedes and as we run out of things to say about it.  I predict that, someday, this website will be history.




Ennis never moves on from Jack. He lives out the rest of his life warmed by those dreams and rocked by that wind. Jack is with him eternally. No-one else takes his place.

Heathens haven't moved on from Heath and many/most will probably wind up like Elvis or James Dean or Marilyn fans, devoted unto death  :)

Run out of things to say about BBM? But I've barely begun  :D :D


Moving on isn't the same as leaving behind.


I have moved on from the tragedy of Heath Ledger's death and short life.
I had to.
It was just too painfully abrubt, too wounding.
I began to feel that if I wasn't careful Heath and Ennis would merge into one
and down that road I didn't want to go.

I much prefer Ennis as a separate entity, alive for me only in the film and short story.
Nowhere else.

I couldn't agree with you more on Ennis NEVER moving on from Jack.
In that we are one hundred percent in agreement and you know Angel, nothing
else much matters. This is the crux of the story for me. This is finite.
Ennis NEVER moves on from Jack.

I thought, for a while there, that I had run out of things to say about BBM, but
I've discovered lately that I sure as hell haven't.

So I'll be staying on here for a spell. ;)

As for why BBM resonates so deeply with straight older women like myself,
I do agree that it is because the story is more about 'universal human experience' than it
is about rural homphobia and the perils thereof. I've always thought so.
I see BBM as a love story. Always have. Otherwise I wouldn't be here.
I would have seen the film, learned something or had my own views affirmed
and then moved on.

I don't think I would have been as moved. I would not have wept.
I would not have felt as if I knew these two young men intimately.
I would not have had my heart broken. I would not have been as outraged by
society's indifference.

(You know it is a tribute to Ang Lee that he saw BBM as a story of love and
brought this out in his actors.)

This is why I believe the story continues to resonate so deeply with straight
older women like myself. Dare I say it? At our stage in life we have, hopefully,
learned a thing or two. We have valuable life experience. We view things
in a more textural, panoramic way. Know what I mean?
We KNOW that there are things in heaven and earth that were not
dreamt of in our earlier philosophy.

I believe 'universal human experience' is the key.
If only the viewer/reader is open enough to use it.





Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on December 20, 2008, 06:08:57 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_description

Audio interpretations of BBM movie:

The UK DVD has "English Descriptive Audio"

Do any other video releases of BBM have Descriptive Audio
(the USA video releases don't)?


The descriptive audio is both funny at some times and moving and helpful at others.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on December 20, 2008, 06:10:51 PM
I also like this, on BBM being advertised as a "universal love story":

In this view the story is about two people in love -- truly, deeply -- who through no fault of their own come to grief, in a modern version of the saga of Romeo and Juliet. Although a popular view, it doesn't hold up well under close examination. In fact it's a denial of major themes of both story and film, which are the dangerous -- indeed lethal -- effects of social homophobia, and the devastating psychological effects of self-contempt in a person who represses core parts of his sexual identity.


Hmmmmmm, worth repeating, I think.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 22, 2008, 10:47:55 AM
Rosewood, as always you manage to capture poetry in every thought.....

One thing I feel the need to add: I do agree on the universality of love as a main point; and I also believe the particular circumstances of Ennis and Jack create the truth of the tragedy therein. Both resonate with me equally. I can't see the love without seeing the adjunct homophobia. I can never disconnect the two in the character of Ennis, even after Jack dies. I still picture him in his trailer, never talking to anyone about Jack; always wondering was it the tire rim or the tire iron. And always living with the decision to keep what was between them from the sight or judgement of others.

This is because I interpret Jack as being  his primary source of both love and pain, even as he remembers him only with pleasure. Because of course, he is dead. Ennis is not living with Jack's  live presence as an objective reminder of his own doubts about himself. In short, Jack's introduction into his life triggered the well-bottom of Ennis's DRH-and his death frees Ennis to an extent, while permanently trapping him in his conundrum. His homophobia blossomed because it had a good reason to, in Ennis: His love for Jack. In his own words,- 'it scares the piss outta me.'

Yes he protects Jack's memory and keeps Jack in his heart; but the fundamental prejudice in his character also allows Ennis to never reveal to another human being what he really, deep down, felt. He only tells Linda Higgins, 'one's enough'-talking to himself, really;  and Jack's parents about how bad he felt. ( I should count, too, him telling Lureen they herded sheep, I suppose...) He is not really coming out-he has not accepted he has something to come out for. He is mostly helpless to not express his feelings, though still undefined, to those particular people, in those vulnerable moments. We can speculate in fanfic about what he told to whom, beyond those indirect admissions. But the implication seems clear to me: Those shirts are still hanging there, and it is doubtful, did he not think they were 100% safe to hang there without speculation from others,  that he would have put them  out there. That is the point, I think,  of the gray, shuffling image of Ennis, with the shirts a silent witness:  He still does NOT want people to find out, deep down. IMO.

To me, BBM is an example of how love does not conquer all. There be dragons, still.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on December 23, 2008, 04:18:21 PM
Heath's death the number 1 entertainment story of the year. Makes me sad all over again.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-Entertainment\20081223\Top-Entertainment-Stories.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on December 23, 2008, 10:05:18 PM
^^^^^^^^^

I saw that..he is on the list 2x with TDK. It is sad, yet it is so affirming, too. It brings another dimension to our obsession here-it ain't just us.....that makes his death even more tragic. Many got alot from him.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on December 24, 2008, 02:08:26 AM
Yeah, but for so many it's just that he was a big star and about to get bigger. It's the celebrity and the manner of death which grabs the attention, not the man himself.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on December 24, 2008, 09:17:44 AM
There's nothing wrong with that. I remember years ago a "rising" young tv actor accidentally killed himself on the set while playing with a gun loaded with blanks... I don't remember his name or the show he was on, but I still think of him from time to time and think what a shame it was. And that sort of accident has a lasting effect. My son, for instance, has been battling some undiagnosed illness for the last 6 months... most of the doctors he's seen have been ready to treat the symptoms rather than find out the cause. He's been prescribed every painkiller, anti depressant and anxiety drug in the world... often at the same time... but he does his homework and and doesn't mix them because he doesn't want to die the way Heath did. Honestly, the idea that maybe untold numbers of other young people... and not so young people... being more aware, more careful when mixing drugs is about the only comfort I've gotten in the last 11 months.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: jack on December 26, 2008, 10:31:51 PM
jon hexam was his name, and i remember being stunned.  he seemed a lovely man.

(http://www.nndb.com/people/306/000109976/jon-erik-hexum.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: jack on December 26, 2008, 10:51:41 PM
you also reminded me of another shocking on set death, that of kevin smith, a handsome and jocular ARES on XENA. and on HERCULES.  he wasvery well liked, and was scheduled to play opposite bruce willis in a major flick when he fell AFTER the completion of a movie in beijing at the age of 38.

(http://alwheaties.com/KSmith/Ares1.gif)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2008, 10:07:50 AM
Does anyone know if the Brokeback film site is gone?  My link didn't work this morning.  I used to watch the trailer everything morning, but it stopped working a few months ago.  So I haven't been there much lately.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on December 31, 2008, 11:32:34 AM
Does anyone know if the Brokeback film site is gone?  My link didn't work this morning.  I used to watch the trailer everything morning, but it stopped working a few months ago.  So I haven't been there much lately.

Hmm, the original "official" site does seem to be gone but
this one is up and contains the trailer along with other scenes.
http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=4620 (http://www.comingsoon.net/films.php?id=4620)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on December 31, 2008, 12:01:32 PM
Alas, I'm getting the same problem I got near the end of the BBM site's existence.  I can't see the trailer.  I clicked on the forward arrow, and the message whips to "ready" and then it's as if I never clicked the arrow.

Maybe I have a PC problem.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on December 31, 2008, 01:18:26 PM
Alas, I'm getting the same problem I got near the end of the BBM site's existence.  I can't see the trailer.  I clicked on the forward arrow, and the message whips to "ready" and then it's as if I never clicked the arrow.

Maybe I have a PC problem.

I had not bothered to try and view anything but now that I have
I find that I can't get anything to play either.
When I click the quicktime option I only get
a screen with a question mark.
Very curious.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on December 31, 2008, 07:24:34 PM
I've also tried. Both varietys of Media Player, but neither works........

So it's probably not your PC, Marc.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: jack on January 01, 2009, 04:30:01 PM
you can find the trailer on virtually any of the video upload sites, such as youtube, veoh, daily motion, youku, tudou, etc etc.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on January 01, 2009, 07:07:55 PM
Thanks for the reminder Jack!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on January 02, 2009, 08:09:14 AM
not sure weather this is the right thread but im gonna watch BBM today as its the new year and i feel i need a good cry
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 05, 2009, 04:58:47 PM
I've decided to leave my 2008 BBM calendar on the wall, open to December's lovely picture of Heath. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ennis Del Mark on January 05, 2009, 05:11:16 PM
Me too, although I think I'm going to leave mine open to April, with that lovely shot of the boys young and laughing and so happy.

Mark
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on January 05, 2009, 05:52:43 PM
I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on January 06, 2009, 04:41:30 AM
I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.


You mean she hasn't shown you my calendar BCJ?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on January 06, 2009, 05:51:11 AM
i hope they do a 2009 calender
anyone got any info?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 06, 2009, 10:06:18 AM
I Googled the subject a while back, with no results.  I predict no more calendars, though I'd happily buy one each year the rest of my life.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on January 06, 2009, 10:10:04 AM
I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.


You mean she hasn't shown you my calendar BCJ?

Yes she did  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on January 06, 2009, 02:05:02 PM
I still haven't unwrapped my 2008 calendar. I've seen all of the months at Linda's house.


You mean she hasn't shown you my calendar BCJ?

Yes she did  ;D

She has shown it to me too.....  ::) ;D >:D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on January 06, 2009, 02:08:49 PM
I Googled the subject a while back, with no results.  I predict no more calendars, though I'd happily buy one each year the rest of my life.

I never got around to buy 2008's calender, which I very much regret now...... :(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 06, 2009, 03:10:12 PM
I'm not sure if this is a Symbolism and Imagery question or not, but it's this:

How often do they smile in the movie?  As Ennis said in answer to a different question, "Not often."

I'm prompted to ask because of the reference to the calendar pic for April 2008 where they're both smiling broadly in 1963, though the shot was never in the film.

Another way to look at it is, in what scenes is there little or no smiling?

4th trip:  not at all
last trip:  a bit around the campfire; of course nothing on the last day (unless I've forgotten something), but there is Ennis's twitch in the tent

At the Twist ranch:  I don't think anybody smiles at all.  Ennis might smile slightly as he gestures to Jack's mother about the shirts he's carrying.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on January 06, 2009, 03:42:30 PM
There is a tiny shadow of a smile on Ennis's face when OMT tells him that Jack talked about him and bringin him home to the ranch.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 06, 2009, 04:28:45 PM
Turns out the pic of Heath in December 2008 is the same pic in February 2007.  Can't pull that sheep's wool over my eyes, at least not for long.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on January 10, 2009, 09:13:06 AM
Funny story anyone?
On my mobile phone home picture I have the one at the top of the forum, the DE hug. Last week I couldn't find my phone when I was at work, and I went back to the office where we are based to look for it. One of my colleagues had found it lying on the hot desk I use when I am down there, and taken it into protective custody. Now my whole department use that desk, so no one knew whose it was.
They opened it and looked at the photograph.
The whole office practically, looked at it and decided that it must belong to a new guy who has just started with us, who they suspect, (but don't know) could possibly be gay. They decided between themselves that it must be him and a partner dressed up as cowboys, and they had their photographs taken.

They asked him if he had lost his phone, he said, "no."
I came in, saying has anyone found a mobile phone, I've misplaced mine. "Yes", they said "but what on earth is the picture on it?"
"It's a scene from my favourite film, Brokeback Mountain," I said.
Everyone collapsed into giggles.

None of them have any problems with people's sexuality, but I would have thought that someone in my office would have seen BBM by now!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 10, 2009, 09:27:03 AM
Funny story - so did they think he was Jack or Ennis?  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on January 10, 2009, 09:29:30 AM
Love it ;D.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on January 10, 2009, 10:18:47 AM
Well as he is dark, so Jack I suppose.
I still wonder if there are people in my office who think I am strange enough to have two gay friends in cowboy hats as the home page on my phone.
What do they think I am, weird or something?
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 10, 2009, 08:32:53 PM
^^^^^^^^^^

Who cares what they think, huh?..the best thing about such incidences, is they make people stop and examine themselves with very little prompting. Always a good thing, IMO.  :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2009, 11:39:13 AM
I'm puzzled that, 3 years after the movie opened, the colleagues haven't been persuaded by someone to see the movie, and don't recognize the pic.  Particularly if they don't have a problem w/ homosexuality.  I used to tell people BBM is one of the 5-10 best movies ever made.  I now tell them it could be the best movie ever made.

But I don't think my boss has seen it.  And two weeks ago I loaned by DVD to a very broadminded lady here at work. 

And my favorite bridge partner hasn't seen it.  She and I had a funny moment about a year ago.  The question was:  when did Oklahoma open on Broadway?  I knew it was during WW-2, and she thought it was after WW-2, latish 40s maybe.  So we bet $1 on it, and of course I won.  During or after the wager, I said, you know it's risky to bet against a gay guy on a question of musical theater!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ennis Del Mark on January 12, 2009, 11:44:03 AM
OKLAHOMA! opened on Broadway on March 31, 1943.  And BBM is in some ways the best movie ever made.  So there.

Mark
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on January 12, 2009, 01:28:55 PM
I'm puzzled that, 3 years after the movie opened, the colleagues haven't been persuaded by someone to see the movie, and don't recognize the pic.  Particularly if they don't have a problem w/ homosexuality.  I used to tell people BBM is one of the 5-10 best movies ever made.  I now tell them it could be the best movie ever made.

But I don't think my boss has seen it.  And two weeks ago I loaned by DVD to a very broadminded lady here at work. 

And my favorite bridge partner hasn't seen it.  She and I had a funny moment about a year ago.  The question was:  when did Oklahoma open on Broadway?  I knew it was during WW-2, and she thought it was after WW-2, latish 40s maybe.  So we bet $1 on it, and of course I won.  During or after the wager, I said, you know it's risky to bet against a gay guy on a question of musical theater!



These are colleagues who work as deaf sign language communicators with students, they also work with the blind and read braille and produce braille manuscripts. They are surrounded by young people all day are full of kindness and compassion for everyone, and they have never seen Brokeback Mountain, or obviously can recognise either Heath Ledger or Jake Gyllenhaal.
I was aghast!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on January 12, 2009, 02:37:30 PM
What can I say, Jess? You clearly haven't been doing your evangelical duty  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on January 12, 2009, 03:17:19 PM
OKLAHOMA! opened on Broadway on March 31, 1943.  And BBM is in some ways the best movie ever made.  So there.

Mark


In some ways..... ?? ???


In what ways is it not the best movie ever made??




When I first saw BBM and talked about it at work, there was only one (out of maybe 40) who had seen it. I doubt anyone has seen it since then, and I don't talk about it any more either.....it's become too personal.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Morton on January 12, 2009, 05:26:57 PM
Hello,

I hope someone can help me.  A couple years ago I was able to locate the Brokeback Mountain Oscar CD Promo.  This promo contained 22 instrumental songs.  I've lost the CD containing these songs and need to have them.  I almost positive someone on the forum posted the link to the CD promo shortly before the Oscar nominations.  If anyone out there can provide me with the link to download I would greatly appreciate it.  You can either post it on the forum or email it to me at ddayton@nycap.rr.com. 

Sincerely,

Morton
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 12, 2009, 05:33:12 PM
Another thing I say about BBM is that it's the best combination of acting, script and direction you'll ever see.  That's not an exaggeration.  Maybe that makes it the best movie ever made, but maybe it doesn't.

My knee-jerk comparison is w/ Citizen Kane.  BBM's acting throughout is perfect or close to it, and CK's is not.  I'll have to ponder script and direction.  My memory is the choppiness of CK's timeline bothered me. 

I wonder:  is there a thread that compares BBM with other great movies?  I can guess which one would win each comparison, but the points of difference might be of interest.

Except for CK and GWTW, I don't have a feel for what other films might be at the top of heap.  Casablanca, for example, is always in the top 10 or 20 or so, as it should be.  Its acting and script sparkle, but the direction doesn't, at least in my memory.  Come to think of it, same for GWTW:  great acting and script, but the direction was at least good but probably not excellent.  Workmanlike.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: bubba on January 12, 2009, 05:37:22 PM
1    Citizen Kane    1941
2    Casablanca    1942
3    The Godfather    1972
4    Gone with the Wind    1939
5    Lawrence of Arabia    1962
6    The Wizard of Oz    1939
7    The Graduate    1967
8    On the Waterfront    1954
9    Schindler's List    1993
10    Singin' in the Rain    1952


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI%27s_100_Years..._100_Movies



Hopefully Brokeback makes the AFI list one day.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on January 13, 2009, 12:42:32 AM
Given that BBM is nowhere on AFI's top 100 list, it's tempting to say the list is worthless, even though it's reasonable to put CK, GWTW, The Graduate and Casablanca in the top 10.  I don't know On the Waterfront and Lawrence of Arabia well, but I don't think they belong in the top 10.  Sunset Boulevard (#12) and Chinatown (#19) are definitely better.  I'd put both of them in my top 10.

I have memories of reading of people's top 10 lists.

The Wizard of Oz is the first movie I memorized, dialog and songs.  Music Man is the second, and BBM is the third.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: annabirmingham on January 18, 2009, 04:40:41 AM
Hi all.

Just been searching eBay DVDs and I found the following write-up of BBM which is probably one of the best I have read anywhere - thought I would share it with you  :)

Based on the short story by Pulitzer Prize-winning author E. Annie Proulx, BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN is the tragic and moving story of two cowboys who unexpectedly fall in love while working together one summer in 1963. When the film begins, rodeo cowboy Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal) and ranch-hand Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) are strangers meeting for the first time. As the more outgoing one, it is Jack who must initiate a friendship with Ennis, a man so tight-lipped and self-consciously macho he refuses all facial expression. From this strained beginning, Jack and Ennis gradually begin to bond on cold lonely nights over a fire in the mountains of Signal, Wyoming. One particularly chilly evening, Jack invites Ennis into his tent, where a sudden awkward embrace sends their relationship in a new direction. Though each man stubbornly defends his heterosexuality, the spark between them cannot help but grow, with that initial summer on Brokeback Mountain becoming their reference point for happiness during the rest of their lives. Spanning 20 years, the film moves at an impressively slow pace that really captures the detailed and unhurried style of Proulxs story. Seeing each other a few times a year at best, Ennis and Jack spend the rest of their time half-heartedly living up to societys expectations by marrying and having kids. When the lovers do meet, there is a sense of love so palpable and frustrating it often manifests itself in physical violence. Gyllenhaal shines as the films hopeful light, and Ledger gives a powerful performance as the emotionally blocked Ennis. Academy Award-winning director Ang Lee captures the natural beauty of Wyoming and Texas with camerawork that, while beautiful, never feels imposing. Gustavo Santaolallas simple yet haunting score helps to complete a beautiful portrait of regret and wasted chances.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on January 18, 2009, 11:11:17 AM
http://www.buzzimage.com/en/work/making_of/33


whoever first posted this, thank you!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on January 18, 2009, 01:00:35 PM
Thanks Anna for that write-up. You're right, it's very good. Short and concise. Says a whole lot in one short paragraph.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on January 19, 2009, 05:43:12 PM
Our dear Rosewood asked me to leave a post, so I decided to put it on one of the threads she normally uses.

She is currently dealing with a serious medical issue: She is actually undergoing chemo for cancer.

 I know she misses being here, and she just wanted to let people know why she has not been.

Please keep her in your thoughts, and know that she wants to come back and post, but is unable to do so right now.

 :(

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on January 19, 2009, 06:57:36 PM
Thank you for that, Jo. Pass on my best wishes to Rosewood. I hope she'll be back soon with her wondrous poetic posts.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on January 20, 2009, 12:20:53 AM
And mine.  I've been thinking about her because I'm enjoying reading books she's recommended.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on January 20, 2009, 12:33:09 AM
I had been missing her - I'm sorry to hear that she's been away for such a miserable reason.   (I've sent you a PM).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: bubba on February 07, 2009, 05:53:55 PM
(http://i543.photobucket.com/albums/gg459/reesejake/4814.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on March 08, 2009, 03:56:01 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/hubs/realtrips/4944309/Ranching-with-cowboys-in-Wild-West-Wyoming.html

"...I asked a wrangler what he thought of the two cowboys in
Brokeback Mountain. I soon wished I hadn't."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on March 08, 2009, 04:28:42 AM
Thank you for that link.   "One. I ain't got time for no sheep herders. And two, I ain't got time for no gays."   Some things haven't changed much.   Looks like the Hideout is a holiday destination to avoid.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on March 10, 2009, 03:23:54 AM
I went to Walmart here in the Midwest USA
at about 0100 on 2009-03-10 and bought the
Blu-ray Disc of Brokeback Mountain.

Even using a Philips MC-129 Micro System, the
Blu-ray Disc (DTS-HD Master Audio) soundtrack
seems to be more detailed than the regular
DVD (Dolby Digital) soundtrack.

I'll listen to the Blu-ray Disc soundtrack with
headphones in the next few days, maybe
some of the "which character said what"
can be resolved.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: chapeaugris on March 10, 2009, 04:45:25 AM
... maybe some of the "which character said what" can be resolved.
OK, I'll start the list.

1. A few people claim that Jack called Ennis "sweetie" during the bloody nose scene. I simply cannot believe it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 11, 2009, 09:24:49 PM
he did..you have to listen real close; he says it fast-and you'll see Ennis's enraged reaction, right behind it, as his fist balls up on Jack's shoulder.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on March 17, 2009, 03:49:15 AM
http://www.davidfisco.com/node/166

"While no character in Brokeback Mountain
can be considered an Objectivist and the
film is philosophically muddied and inconsistent..."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: AZ.bbm on March 17, 2009, 07:37:55 AM
http://www.davidfisco.com/node/166

"While no character in Brokeback Mountain
can be considered an Objectivist and the
film is philosophically muddied and inconsistent..."


Hi LL,
This is a very interesting thread, and David Fisco's article was something of an eye opener, thanks.

Quote from: David Fisco "Objectivism on Brokeback Mountain"
"...Why employ careful research, setting your story in geographically accurate locations, only to have your most august relationship develop on a fictitious mountain?... When a writer opens a door allowing anyone to call any scene a phantasm, anything goes. Such a writer takes no moral, social or epistemic stand, and no interpretation of that writer's work has any validity. A writer who engages in such philosophic treason is worse than the modern "artists" who hang blank canvases hoping viewers will project whatever the viewers wish on their nonsensical "creations." At least with the modern artists we can quickly look elsewhere; the dramatist who engages in such behavior pilfers two hours and fifteen minutes of our lives."

Quote
"...Although not written in the genre of Romantic Realism and seriously flawed in philosophy, morality, construction and execution..."



-Az.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 17, 2009, 07:44:59 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quote
Did Jack and Ennis marry their wives in good faith? Clearly, both men were bisexual and willing to perform sexually with their wives.

Another example of someone assuming bisexuality because a man can sleep with a woman, as well as a man. How naive. How many gay men were married for decades? All we need it to look around our forum...sigh.

Interesting analysis, from the objectivism pov of Ennis, especially. I don't normally embrace philosophical interpretations-they always seem one or two layers  removed from true inner motivations of characters, but I really liked this one. I don't agree with all of it, but I do agree with alot of it.

I think it is an example of how the story and film just can't quite co-mingle in every instance. There are definite contradictions-read the footnotes, too, there is some interesting stuff in there. I like how the writer recognizes the heterosexulaizing of some of the love scenes on film. I've always felt that way; the story is much grittier, much more like I'd imagine two guys feeling comfortable with each other. Some important stuff in there about denial, too-and about Ennis's need to conform.


tx for posting it! It's worth a whole thread by itself, almost.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 17, 2009, 01:26:09 PM
I found the article most interesting, but I tend to the view that the story represents "real life" characters, and can "real life characters ever successfully fit a philosophical model?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 17, 2009, 01:34:08 PM
Probably not perfectly...but I think philosophical models can be applied in general to characters-and people. In literature, I know, it's easier to label. If Ennis were standing here talking to us, he'd be a bit harder to peg for all of the complexities, I think.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 17, 2009, 05:19:01 PM
I was thinking, that if you fitted the characters to an overall philosophical plan, and if all serious writing had to fit that same model, that literature would soon become boring and predictable.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on March 17, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
I agree. It's the individual perceptions of the writer that fuel the unique impact.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on March 18, 2009, 09:18:19 PM
http://www.davidfisco.com/node/166
Bwaaaahaahaa !!!  I love that review to death!  How do you say 'clueless' in Objectivese?

"~The plot can be fully understood only from the Objectivist perspective. Had the script better exploited this, Brokeback Mountain would have been sublimed to brilliant tragedy.~" 

yes, Ossana and McMurtry just threw the story in the trash, such a shame!

"~Under Objectivist morality, this situation would be justification for Jack and Ennis to commit suicide if the men realized that, due to their restriction, their lives had no chance of ever being heroic. As Ayn Rand wrote in John Galt's suicide justification speech in Atlas Shrugged, 'there will be no values for me to seek...and I do not care to exist without values.' " 

Not to worry, John.  If sententiousness is a value, you'll never run out of values.

"In an alternate script, the two could have had a denouement discussion about their values and their inability to achieve greatness in the world to which they must return, check into a hotel and suicide. That version of Brokeback Mountain would be much closer to Randian fiction and drama."   

Very true.  It would be a trifle strange perhaps, to see Ennis and Jack all of a sudden talking existentially about Heroes;  but yes, it certainly would put the Rand Touch upon the movie!

"A final potential objection is puzzling, and remains nascent and underdeveloped in this article. The objection revolves around the question: How much of the plot of Brokeback Mountain does Proulx intend to be "real" within the context of the fiction and how much, if any, is a lie-of-the-mind? Toward the end of writing this article, I discovered an anomaly in the structure of Brokeback Mountain: All of the many geographic references in the film are real with the exception of three locations which appear to be fictitious: "  

He goes on for a ways about this.  He suspects... something.  He is baffled and upset.  "Is this real Wyoming, or some fantasy?  'cause if it's not real Wyoming, it's vile and amoral.  Would somebody pleeze tell me whether this is real Wyoming, or that other Wyoming?"  A paraphrase.

"Although not written in the genre of Romantic Realism and seriously flawed in philosophy, morality, construction and execution"

  -- Romantic Realism being the the genre of Ms Rand's revered tomes.   It deals with 'people not as they are, but as they might be, and ought to be' -- her words.  So, right, Brokeback is definitely not Romantic Realism!!   

Apparently, Non-romantic Realism strikes no chord with objectivists.  Altas Shrugged is the world's longest Harlequin romance.  For all its grandiosity, I really think it is a teenager's fantasy of the strongest guy in the human race, ready to spit in everybody's eye but...  taking her, and her alone, for his own.

(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f104/vcdrtPH/Fabio_Shrugged.jpg)

Oh, and for those who wish to hook up with an objectivist, check out http://www.theatlasphere.com/dating/index.php?page=index.  Happy hunting!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 21, 2009, 08:36:36 AM
Well --

it must be a heavy burden to go through life trying to work in a Randian understanding of all art.

Thus the preoccupation with suicide.

 ::)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on March 21, 2009, 08:42:53 AM
Oh wow, that article is amazing.

"Were these characters even gay?

the poor guy, he was gobsmacked by Brokeback Fever and forced to consider the movie, his mind kept returning to it again and again!

what a shock that must have been for him!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on March 21, 2009, 05:03:32 PM
I have way too much free time on Saturdays  ;D


I've been searching for the earliest occurence of the word "Brokeback"

This is from a 1963 article in Time Magazine:

Lonesome Lovers

The Ballad of the Sad Café, adapted by Edward Albee from Carson McCullers' story, finds the playwright in the role of ventriloquist's dummy. In echoing another voice, Albee has temporarily lost his own. In misconceived fidelity, the playwright has subordinated the dramatic to the novella form. He has relinquished a shapely, abrasive precision of language for mistily inflated poeticizing. As a play-to-play progression, the effect is dismaying; Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? is to The Ballad of the Sad Café what an icicle is to its melted puddle.

Sad Café is a ballad of unreciprocated loves, testimony to a voguish dramatic ailment known as incurable aloneness. In their intertwining relationship, the three fantast-lovers in Sad Café are consumed not by their mutual fevers but by their solitary hallucinations.

Miss Amelia (Colleen Dewhurst) is a giantess, a strapping man's man of a woman. She runs a liquor and drygoods store in a dull and dusty Southern town and is as tight with her affections as with her cash. On the weather-beaten clapboard siding of her store, the faded lettering DRINK NEHI is a hint of some ghostly thirst for life. Marvin Macy (Lou Antonio) thirsts for Miss Amelia, and he reforms his rakehell ways to woo and wed her. In the ten scarifying days of their life together, he never beds her. Instead, she flings him to the floor and out of her life with venomous contempt. The castaway takes to crime, and his love-turned-to-hate festers in a Georgia penitentiary.

A hunchbacked dwarf named Cousin Lymon (Michael Dunn) comes along to claim kinship with Miss Amelia and monkey-walk his way into her barricaded heart. Cousin Lymon is sly, querulous and malevolent, but in her shy-smiling gladness Miss Amelia turns her store into a café where her half-pet half-child holds court. One night Marvin Macy shows up, and it is the dwarf's turn to love unrequitedly. Cousin Lymon is infatuated with the ex-jailbird who has seen the world, but Marvin cruelly cuffs him and calls him "Brokeback." The stage is thus set for a kind of gladiators' duel to the death between Miss Amelia and Marvin Macy. Glistening with hogfat and ringed by townsfolk, the pair slug and wrestle each other like mastodons before some prehistoric cave. As Colleen Dewhurst and Lou Antonio enact it, this raw battle of the sexes is charged with a passionate intensity that convicts the rest of the play of emotional anemia.

None of the loves in the Sad Café are of an aberrant kind that dares not speak its name. These loves do not know their names, and Albee is at a loss to make them credible. He resorts to sham mystification as exemplified by a narrator who pops in to bridge the gaps in the script and utter radio serial profundities: "No one can know what really takes place in the soul of the lover." A faintly supercilious device at best, the narrator tediously describes what ought to have been vitally dramatized—a confession of the playwright's failure.




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html)


The word is used 3 times in the story:

"What ails this Brokeback?" he asked with a rough jerk of his thumb.

"That will learn you, Brokeback," said Marvin Macy.

"Out of my way, Brokeback -- I'll snatch you bald-headed."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories)

THE BALLAD OF THE SAD CAFÉ
AND OTHER STORIES

A Bantam Book / published by arrangement
with Houghton Mifflin Company

PUBLISHING HISTORY

Houghton Mifflin edition published May 1951
Book Find Club edition published May 1951
Bantam edition / March 1958
Bantam Modern Classic edition / August 1969
Bantam Pathfinder edition / December 1970
Bantam edition / November 1971
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on March 26, 2009, 07:18:48 AM
Bugs!  Let's talk about bugs. 

I just realized that this movie was filmed in the Canadian Rockies in the summer of 2004.  Well, as circumstance would have it, I spent my entire summer backpacking in the Canadian Rockies in 2004.  I can't even believe it myself, since I have become obsessed with this movie after the first time I saw it -only a week ago.  Nope, I never saw Ang, Jake, Heath, or even the person who makes coffee for the crew...

...but, I did spend a lot of time with those unsung extras- the gnats, mosquitoes, no-see-ums, etc!  I will never go back to Brokeback Mountain, because there's not enough insect repellant in the world to keep those critters away.  Has anyone else been bugged by all the bugs that swarm the characters in the movie?  I really felt it for Heath when he has that fly on his neck during the boy's final scene!

Sorry if this has been discussed here already.  I'm late to the party.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on March 27, 2009, 02:56:35 AM
Welcome Donnab

the party is still in full swing ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on March 27, 2009, 06:37:19 AM
Glad to hear it, Nax!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ennis Del Mark on March 27, 2009, 07:01:23 AM
I have way too much free time on Saturdays  ;D


I've been searching for the earliest occurence of the word "Brokeback"

This is from a 1963 article in Time Magazine:

Lonesome Lovers

The Ballad of the Sad Café, adapted by Edward Albee from Carson McCullers' story, finds the playwright in the role of ventriloquist's dummy. In echoing another voice, Albee has temporarily lost his own. In misconceived fidelity, the playwright has subordinated the dramatic to the novella form. He has relinquished a shapely, abrasive precision of language for mistily inflated poeticizing. As a play-to-play progression, the effect is dismaying; Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? is to The Ballad of the Sad Café what an icicle is to its melted puddle.

Sad Café is a ballad of unreciprocated loves, testimony to a voguish dramatic ailment known as incurable aloneness. In their intertwining relationship, the three fantast-lovers in Sad Café are consumed not by their mutual fevers but by their solitary hallucinations.

Miss Amelia (Colleen Dewhurst) is a giantess, a strapping man's man of a woman. She runs a liquor and drygoods store in a dull and dusty Southern town and is as tight with her affections as with her cash. On the weather-beaten clapboard siding of her store, the faded lettering DRINK NEHI is a hint of some ghostly thirst for life. Marvin Macy (Lou Antonio) thirsts for Miss Amelia, and he reforms his rakehell ways to woo and wed her. In the ten scarifying days of their life together, he never beds her. Instead, she flings him to the floor and out of her life with venomous contempt. The castaway takes to crime, and his love-turned-to-hate festers in a Georgia penitentiary.

A hunchbacked dwarf named Cousin Lymon (Michael Dunn) comes along to claim kinship with Miss Amelia and monkey-walk his way into her barricaded heart. Cousin Lymon is sly, querulous and malevolent, but in her shy-smiling gladness Miss Amelia turns her store into a café where her half-pet half-child holds court. One night Marvin Macy shows up, and it is the dwarf's turn to love unrequitedly. Cousin Lymon is infatuated with the ex-jailbird who has seen the world, but Marvin cruelly cuffs him and calls him "Brokeback." The stage is thus set for a kind of gladiators' duel to the death between Miss Amelia and Marvin Macy. Glistening with hogfat and ringed by townsfolk, the pair slug and wrestle each other like mastodons before some prehistoric cave. As Colleen Dewhurst and Lou Antonio enact it, this raw battle of the sexes is charged with a passionate intensity that convicts the rest of the play of emotional anemia.

None of the loves in the Sad Café are of an aberrant kind that dares not speak its name. These loves do not know their names, and Albee is at a loss to make them credible. He resorts to sham mystification as exemplified by a narrator who pops in to bridge the gaps in the script and utter radio serial profundities: "No one can know what really takes place in the soul of the lover." A faintly supercilious device at best, the narrator tediously describes what ought to have been vitally dramatized—a confession of the playwright's failure.




http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,897027-1,00.html)


The word is used 3 times in the story:

"What ails this Brokeback?" he asked with a rough jerk of his thumb.

"That will learn you, Brokeback," said Marvin Macy.

"Out of my way, Brokeback -- I'll snatch you bald-headed."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories (http://www.scribd.com/doc/11867410/McCullers-Carson-The-Ballad-of-the-Sad-Cafe-and-Other-Stories)

THE BALLAD OF THE SAD CAFÉ
AND OTHER STORIES

A Bantam Book / published by arrangement
with Houghton Mifflin Company

PUBLISHING HISTORY

Houghton Mifflin edition published May 1951
Book Find Club edition published May 1951
Bantam edition / March 1958
Bantam Modern Classic edition / August 1969
Bantam Pathfinder edition / December 1970
Bantam edition / November 1971


Thanks for that tidbit, John.  Interesting.

I remember in 1999 that a local community theater staged this play and it was a disaster, albeit a noble failure.  To this day it's referred to as THE SALAD OF THE BAD CAFE.  (In case you're wondering, I wasn't in it.)

Mark
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on April 02, 2009, 06:33:18 PM
Hi  Donnab,  Like you new here.  Just to tell you I am going to the 'Rockies in September. Have been told about the 'bugs' up there, really hope it wont spoil my visit as I am Soooooooooooooooooooo   looking forward to going there. I have brought so many books about the place I could set up a library!!!!!!!!! When I get there I will be going to some of the Brokeback locations .I have printed off some maps etc off comp. Itss such a huge place I hope I get to see just one or two.We are going in an RV. so should be able to do some miles. Yes, I did feel for Heath and Jake having to carry on filming scenes when all flying flotsam and jetsom were using them as a landing pad!!!!!!!!.


                                                                           suelyblu
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on April 03, 2009, 07:03:42 AM
September should be a lot better than when I was there!  The bugs will probably have died down by then and the weather will be less rainy.  My boyfriend has always wanted to go back to the Canadian Rockies (we were backpacking through there at the time of the filming) and now that I'm obsessed with this movie, I have finally agreed to go back again.  Now, he keeps teasing me by saying we can't stop at any of the filming sites!  I'm going to have to smack him!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 03, 2009, 07:59:30 AM
Oh!  I thought when Aguirre slaps at that mosquito (count aint what I hoped for neither, you ranch stiffs ain't never no good) I just thought that was brilliant acting. 

ha!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on April 03, 2009, 08:34:02 AM
LOL- tell you what!  Really, I have been backpacking for 25 years and have hiked in mountain ranges all over the world and nothing was worse than the Canadian Rockies in summer '04!  You couldn't even eat outside of the tent without being eaten alive by swarms of mosquitoes and gnats.  It really makes me wonder why they chose to film there.  You can see the swarms of bugs in many of the outdoor scenes.  Gosh, I'm sure the actors and crew had to use a lot of DEET just to be able to go outdoors!  When we look at our pics from the trip, the scenery is so beautiful.  Then, when I saw the movie, I remembered how bad it really was! 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on April 03, 2009, 06:53:19 PM
Do you know....I'm fast changing my ming about going to The Rockies'. Are you lot trying to put me off 'cause you want it to yourselves!!!!!!!!! But really I would walk over hot coals to get there to see some of the locations where BMM was filmed. Just to stand where Heath Ledger (Ennis) has stood would be awesome. After I've done that, they could screw down the lid and bury me up there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


                                                                 suelyblu. xx
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: button on April 03, 2009, 08:06:07 PM
Does anyone know how to get in touch with the criterion  collection.  I hear they have done the ben button film which is shocking, since they usually release older films.  Since Focus pictures won't give us a proper dvd of brokeback mountain,  Do you think they might be interested?  I know the do a bang up job when it comes to bonus material.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on April 03, 2009, 10:35:43 PM
Does anyone know how to get in touch with the criterion  collection.  ~
Try the web site.  Make a password & log in;  maybe there's a contact # or e-mail address for suggestions.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: button on April 04, 2009, 05:08:04 PM
DAL - thank you. cross your fingers.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 06, 2009, 09:18:11 PM
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/BBMEssay.jpg)

The essay investigates the film adaptation process of the short story "Brokeback Mountain". The short story is compared to the film manuscript and the film. The process of adaptation is analyzed through a narratological perspective and uses Linda Hutcheon's "A Theory of Adaptation" as a starting point when analyzing matters such as focalization, narrators,voiceovers and framed narratives.

University essay from Högskolan i Gävle/Institutionen för humaniora och samhällsvetenskap


Quote
1. Introduction: Aim and Method

How does a piece of writing change as it is re-written and more importantly, how does it
change when it is re-written for another medium? What gets added and subtracted? Is the
main storyline kept intact or does the adaptor change it in any way he or she likes? These are
some of the questions that will be discussed from a narratological perspective in this essay.

Annie Proulx’s “Brokeback Mountain” will be the object of investigation: the short story that
became widely known through its appearance in the New Yorker in 1997. Later on it was also
published in Proulx’s collection of short stories Close Range: Wyoming Stories in 1999. It
became most famous of all, however, through the film medium; many (myself included)
surely saw it without being aware that it was a screen adaptation. Brokeback Mountain was
very much appreciated in its written form and its reputation grew even greater. One might
even go so far as to say that it became a world wide phenomenon when it was adapted into a
film by director Ang Lee, based on the screenplay by Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana. It
was labelled as “a tale of two gay cowboys” (Proulx, GM 130) and the two actors playing the
main characters were widely acclaimed for their performances. However, this is not what will
be the main concern in this essay. As already mentioned, the purpose of this essay is to
compare the short story to the screenplay and film and make note of things that separate them,
but also point out what they have in common. Both the short story and the film will be
investigated from a narratological perspective. To put it in the words of Jonathan Culler, focus
will lie on “notions of plot, of different kinds of narrators [and] narrative techniques” where the aim will be to “understand the components of narrative and [analyze] how particular narratives achieve their effects”.


http://hig.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:200890/FULLTEXT01 (http://hig.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:200890/FULLTEXT01)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tomnewyork on April 07, 2009, 07:14:29 AM
Has this been posted before?
Just came across it and was amazed and pleased that it's still making the rounds.


http://www.angryalien.com/aa/brokebackbuns.asp
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on April 07, 2009, 10:02:33 AM
OMG!  That was hysterical! 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 07, 2009, 10:08:26 AM
^^^^

I watched it three times. 

Not as many times as I watched the real movie though.  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on April 07, 2009, 10:53:38 AM
I've seen it before but it's still soooo funny :D :D.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on April 07, 2009, 05:24:51 PM
John, that essay really sounds interesting.....how did you come across it?

And it's written here in Sweden.... ;)  8)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 07, 2009, 05:30:06 PM
John, that essay really sounds interesting.....how did you come across it?

And it's written here in Sweden.... ;)  8)


I found it on the internet  ;D

Actually I was searching for news items for TDS last night and came across the essay.

I have found a few others recently. Maybe I'll post those later.

Some of the articles I find are only available for money, but there are quite a few good ones that are free.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on April 07, 2009, 05:39:32 PM

I found it on the internet  ;D

Actually I was searching for news items for TDS last night and came across the essay.

I have found a few others recently. Maybe I'll post those later.

Some of the articles I find are only available for money, but there are quite a few good ones that are free.



Please do!

I always find it interesting to read articles written from an objective and/or academic point of view.

I mean, we all know it's the best movie ever made, but it's interesting to see what non-brokies have to say about it...

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Miaisland on April 07, 2009, 05:41:21 PM
John, that essay really sounds interesting.....how did you come across it?

And it's written here in Sweden.... ;)  8)

One just has to read it...

Here's to Högskolan i Gävle!!!!!!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sandy on April 07, 2009, 06:58:10 PM
I think Lee's "Ice Storm" is part of the Criterion Collection, so it's not out of the realm of imagination. But BBM is probably just too lucrative a franchise for Focus to give up on just yet.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 07, 2009, 10:09:40 PM
Sharrett, Christopher, Department of Communication (March 2009).  “Death of the Strong, Silent Type:  The Achievement of Brokeback Mountain.” Film International, no. 37.



(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/BBMSeton.jpg)

 
 
 
excerpt from Page 26
 
 
Quote
American Gothic

 
Ennis’s visit to the Twist homestead in the penultimate scene provides clues to much of the film, and explains why Ennis is necessarily the strong, silent male. If the Twists are representative of the American family, one has little choice, failing truly revolutionary options, but to shut up and put on a determined look that projects courage and conceals pain.
 
The Twist farmstead, weathered and tumbledown on the outside, incredibly stark and chilly in the interior, is a version of Grant Wood’s much-debated, omnipresent 1933 painting, American Gothic. The painting is indeed gothic, conveying the horror of Middle America as seat of repression and absolute order. The film has its correlates for Wood’s glaring farmer, hand clasping a threatening pitchfork, his female companion averting her gaze, her dress fastened tightly at the neck, and the peaked gothic (which is to say barbaric) gable of their wooden house behind them. John Twist (Peter McRobbie) is almost an Expressionist ghoul from the Weimar cinema, his words to Ennis (laying down the law about Jack’s final resting place) threatening beyond their actual content. Jack’s meek, frightened-looking mother (Roberta Maxwell) is not mentioned by name, even in the final credits, so irrelevant is she to the world around her, and even her own household.
 
If Lureen and Alma are marginal to their worlds (Lureen less so than Alma since she is a somewhat phallicized woman, internalizing the father’s values and running his affairs), Jack’s mother is the film’s final statement about women in patriarchal society—she has learned to mind her place to survive. Her small kindnesses to Ennis certainly don’t go unnoticed by her husband; they are permitted since they don’t disturb the way things are. The mother might be said to suggest a tiny potentiality within an awful setting, but her presence seems more involved in suggesting how the best of humanity can survive regardless of social systems, rather than hope for transformative change in the future.
 
This small, economical scene is one of the cinema’s most devastating portraits of patriarchal society. Jack’s early comments about the father’s utter failure (‘can’t please my old man, no way’), especially as a mentor (‘never taught me a thing’), find pointed meaning in the scene. As does Ennis’s story about his own father forcing him to look at the body of a dead gay man in a Wyoming drainage ditch, the patriarch both outright murdere(Ennis’s rumination about the father’s complicity is persuasive) and child abuser, his legacy forever imprinted on Ennis’s shattered psyche.
 
The last scene, with Ennis alone at his trailer, is exceptionally bleak, modified only a little by the arrival of Alma, Jr. and her announcement of her wedding, which momentarily cheers her father – if the concept of joy has any application to him. Contrary to several critics, I don’t read this scene as a poignant affirmation of marriage, with Ennis (alone after Alma, Jr.’s departure) sadly mourning the marriage to Jack that never happened. The scene’s emphasis is on desolation rather than what-might-have-been. After all, there is no evidence that Ennis would have accepted a union of any sort with Jack, his every gesture refusing that kind of intimacy out of fear of society and himself.
 
The film’s last shots are of the bloody shirts, the postcard of the mountain, and the trailer window pointing to a frontier that no longer exists, as all possibility is foreclosed. The strong, silent American male has come to a cul de sac, that is the place to which the American ideal of civilization has led. Ennis’s stoicism, his playing by the rules in the hope of something better, has simply produced his erasure


Full article:

http://www.atypon-link.com/INT/doi/pdf/10.1386/fiin.7.1.16 (http://www.atypon-link.com/INT/doi/pdf/10.1386/fiin.7.1.16)

Christopher Sharrett is Professor of Communication and Film Studies at Seton Hall
University. He is author of The Rifleman (Wayne State University Press), editor of
Crisis Cinema: The Apocalyptic Idea in Postmodern Narrative Film (Maisonneuve Press),
and Mythologies of Violence in Postmodern Media (Wayne State University Press), and
co-editor of Planks of Reason: Essays on the Horror Film. His work has appeared in Cineaste,
Cinema Journal, Framework, Journal of Popular Film and Television, Film International,
Kino Eye, Senses of Cinema, and other publications, including numerous anthologies.

About Film International

Film International started in 1973 as Filmhäftet in Sweden and has through the years recruited contributors among the most distinguished scholars and journalists around the world.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2009, 02:32:11 PM
Hey, something happened in Riverton:

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt (http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt)

A guy escaped from the honor farm.  He was doing 7-10 for involuntary manslaughter for killing somebody named Aguirre.

Not exactly riveting, but it's first news from there I've heard of in forever. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 13, 2009, 02:38:22 PM
Hey, something happened in Riverton:

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt (http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2009/04/13/news/wyoming/33-escape.txt)

A guy escaped from the honor farm.  He was doing 7-10 for involuntary manslaughter for killing somebody named Aguirre.

Not exactly riveting, but it's first news from there I've heard of in forever. 

Where are you getting Aguirre's name from?

This guy killed someone named Teasdale

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/10/28/news/wyoming/bcd91be5ea472cf187256f39007ca750.txt (http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2004/10/28/news/wyoming/bcd91be5ea472cf187256f39007ca750.txt)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 08:48:03 AM
I made it up, but should have supplied an emoticon.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 14, 2009, 09:15:49 AM
hi Marc --

Is there an emoticon that expresses "I made this up"  ?

You had me going, but I'm the type that hates April fool's day.


Thanks for correction, John
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2009, 09:25:48 AM
And speaking of April fool's, either Bettermost or EnnisJack announced that Ang Lee had joined their Forum.  And he had his own Q&A thread.  I started mentally composing the questions I wanted to ask.

It must have taken me 10 minutes to figure out it was a joke. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 20, 2009, 08:52:31 AM
I noticed that when Ennis spins Jack around at FNIT, and spins Alma around in bed, he spun them both around in the same direction, more orl less counterclockwise.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 20, 2009, 09:06:07 AM
Marc, is that because they are north of the equator in both instances?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on April 20, 2009, 12:43:31 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 20, 2009, 04:27:40 PM
I forget which way water spins going down the drain on this side of the International Date Line.  (That's a joke, son.)

Another example is high pressure and low pressure weather systems.  The winds spin in opposite directions.  If memory serves, hurricanes spin counter-clockwise and they are low pressure in spades.

So if AP was alluding to weather instead of draining water, then she's implying butt-fucking is low-pressure.  But into addition to being counter-clockwise, it's counter-intuitive.  If I had to pick one, I'd call butt-fucking high pressure.  At least, that's the conclusion I'd draw from what people tell me.  Not that I have any first-hand experience, you understand.  Nope, not me.

But maybe AP was referring to bad weather.  But Jack enjoyed it and Alma didn't, so that doesn't work.

Well, that enough analysis for one afternoon at work.  At taxpayer expense.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on April 20, 2009, 04:32:32 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh  ??? ???
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on April 20, 2009, 05:20:04 PM

Well, that enough analysis for one afternoon at work.  At taxpayer expense.

Watch out Marc, Obama has warned that he's looking for wasteful spending!  Your analysis might get cut--   :( :o

But at least if that happens, you can hope Obama will be able to get you some health care.
 ;) ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 21, 2009, 01:53:58 PM
"Brokeback Mountain" becomes an opera

The premiere is scheduled for June 2013 in Madrid's Teatro Real.


Quote
SANTIAGO.- When the film "Brokeback mountain" (Ang Lee, 2005) premiered, it led to a heated debate about the subjects being tackled by mass film industry. The winning of more than 45 awards -including three Oscars (Best Director, Best Adapted Screenplay and Best Original Score) and the Golden Lion from the Venice Film Festival (Best Film)- was supported by an indisputable success in movie theaters. Its main characters, Ennis del Mar and Jack Twist, were considered as tragic heroes immersed in a hostile world and the actors, Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal, became sex symbols without frontiers.

Now a new step is being given in dealing with love between men due to the fact that Gérard Mortier, artistic director of the New York City Opera, commissioned an opera about this subject to composer Charles Wuorinen. It should have premiered on that theater's stage, but the composer himself explains: "Mortier had a rift with the theater and left. He is now working at the Teatro Real in Madrid. And 'Brokeback mountain' will make its debut there in June 2013".



—How have you dealt with the story of "Brokeback mountain"? Is your opera based on Annie Proulx's story or on Ang Lee's film? Will people see the characters of the film on this occasion on an opera stage?
 
 
—Annie Proulx herself wrote the libretto which is already finished. I feel it does not bear much relation to the film. It has the same characters, but unlike the story, however, women play a slightly bigger part in it, as in the film. But I have not contacted Ang Lee and I have contacted Annie Proulx. I just finished working with her when she came recently to Nueva York to add the last touches.
 
 
 
—In what way will you deal, from a musical and theatrical point of view, with the love scenes between Jack and Ennis? One thing is to talk about the love of a man for another man and something quite different is a man having sex with another man.
 
—There will be no sex scenes on the stage in my opera. The love scenes have a dialogue and they are going to be sung. And the musical staging will reflect what they are saying and the emotions that may be read between the lines. There is a moment where there is a musical interlude; they will not be visible then, but they are making love.
 
 
—Have you thought about what this kind of experience will be for the public? People who go to the opera are not used to seeing love scenes between men …
 
—Well, they will have to get used to it.

 http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=354647 (http://www.emol.com/noticias/ingles/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=354647) WARNING-SPOILERS
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 21, 2009, 08:08:28 PM
Well, they will have to get used to it.

Well said.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 21, 2009, 08:45:07 PM
O_M_G!!!!!!!!!!!!  They're doin' the opera!! Annie wrote for it..my heart rate just went up. I am way too excited about this. How gorgeous this will be.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ministering angel on April 21, 2009, 09:19:32 PM
yes, it's thrilling to see she did the libretto. I wonder what new avenues of discussion it will take us down  ;) :D >:D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CANSTANDIT on April 21, 2009, 11:15:18 PM
Hmmm,,,I don't know..how about, who will be the bass, and who the soprano?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on April 21, 2009, 11:23:49 PM
The Opera announcement doesn't specifically mention any plans
to make a film/video recording of the Brokeback Mountain Opera.

Any idea who to contact to ask about film/video recording plans?

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 22, 2009, 01:54:17 AM
The Opera announcement doesn't specifically mention any plans
to make a film/video recording of the Brokeback Mountain Opera.

Any idea who to contact to ask about film/video recording plans?



You could try Charles Wuorinen's personal representative:


Howard Stokar Management
870 West End Avenue
New York, New York 10025-4918

 (212) 866-5798  [telephone]
 (212) 666-1538  [fax]


e-mail hstokar@stokar.com  (http://hstokar@stokar.com)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 22, 2009, 11:16:41 AM
As I've said before, it would be an opera where the two lovers don't sing love songs to each other.  That will be a nice trick.

An interesting take on the libretto is the evolution of the SS into the finished film.  I don't have a feel for the differences between the SS and the screenplay, but my guess is the dialog was better in the latter.  But then when you compare the screenplay w/ the dialog in the film, the latter is always better.  Every change they made was an improvement.

So if they can figure out who changed the screenplay's dialog into what you hear on the screen, have that person play w/ the libretto.

But I digress.  Probably everyone noticed the two full moons in the movie, on Jack's first night w/ the sheep and at FNIT.  A nice way to show it took a month for Jack to fall in love with Ennis.  I noticed that the moon is shown at rouglhly the same spot on the screen in both shots.  Another nice touch.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on April 22, 2009, 04:51:36 PM
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The thought of a BBM Opera to me is horrendous. I associate Gyllenhaal and Ledger too much as Jack and Ennis. If Jake was a brilliant singer maybe but then there is no Heath. Jake And Heath  WERE Jack and Ennis. Even AP wrote a note to Heath and called him Ennis, she didnot correct as she said "he was Ennis. Can you imagine other movies with out the spot on casting " Gone with the Wind" Gable and Leigh,  "Streetcar named Desire"  Brando And Leigh again, "Butch Cassidy and Sundance " Newman and Redford  and so many many more. They were so brilliantly cast, so right. I vote no to BBM Opera NO,NO,NO.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 22, 2009, 10:18:53 PM
There probably won't be a lot of new information about the opera in the near future, but if anyone is interested, we have a thread for discussion of the opera here:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=22452.0)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on April 23, 2009, 09:44:25 AM
Has anyone noticed if the phone changes in the phone booth between Ennis's trips to the Post Office?  It's probably too far away to tell in 1967, but I'll look for it next time.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on April 28, 2009, 06:30:24 PM
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. The thought of a BBM Opera to me is horrendous. I associate Gyllenhaal and Ledger too much as Jack and Ennis. If Jake was a brilliant singer maybe but then there is no Heath. Jake And Heath  WERE Jack and Ennis. Even AP wrote a note to Heath and called him Ennis, she didnot correct as she said "he was Ennis. Can you imagine other movies with out the spot on casting " Gone with the Wind" Gable and Leigh,  "Streetcar named Desire"  Brando And Leigh again, "Butch Cassidy and Sundance " Newman and Redford  and so many many more. They were so brilliantly cast, so right. I vote no to BBM Opera NO,NO,NO.


Well, I'm not a fan of opera, so I wouldn't see a BBM opera.  However, if they are able to do one well, I don't see why it shouldn't see the light of day.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: FoS on May 02, 2009, 06:24:09 AM
This may already have been discussed, but did you notice that A. Proulx, in the Paris Review interview, says that "it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience". And that shortly after she CLOSES one open space by saying "......after Jack is killed".
I guess that most of us already thought jack was killed in cold blood, but A.P. left it open in the SS, as did Ang Lee in the movie. Now we know.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 02, 2009, 07:07:12 AM
I'm not a native speaker, but can't "being killed" also mean killed by accident?

Someone with a better knowledge of English can maybe clarify?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on May 02, 2009, 07:56:23 AM
You're right on Sason!  If she had said 'murdered,' we would have known that it was death by tire iron.  'Killed' does not imply a definitive answer.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 02, 2009, 08:08:19 AM
Thanks for clarifying that Donna!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on May 02, 2009, 08:48:42 AM
This may already have been discussed, but did you notice that A. Proulx, in the Paris Review interview, says that "it’s important to leave spaces in a story for readers to fill in from their own experience". And that shortly after she CLOSES one open space by saying "......after Jack is killed".
I guess that most of us already thought jack was killed in cold blood, but A.P. left it open in the SS, as did Ang Lee in the movie. Now we know.   

Hmm... to me 'is killed' can imply an accident, but if so I would expect it to be qualified, like 'is killed in a car crash' or 'in a fire'.  Just on its own does seem to me to indicate 'by somebody'.

But in the SS I've always seen Jack's death as ambiguous, and my personal inclination is that it's the tyre rim.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: FoS on May 02, 2009, 10:21:21 AM
My first language isn't English, so forgive me for trying to interpret what A.P said.
I don't know all the connotations of English words, and should not have posted that thing about "killed".

In my language we have numerous words for dying. Some indicate how or why, some are clinical, and some are euphemisms  - and often they are used wrongly.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 02, 2009, 12:01:00 PM
Hey ForS

I think you raised an interesting question!
No need to apologize!

I wrote you a PM the other day, I'm wondering if you got it?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on May 02, 2009, 05:41:52 PM
Hmm... to me 'is killed' can imply an accident, but if so I would expect it to be qualified, like 'is killed in a car crash' or 'in a fire'.  Just on its own does seem to me to indicate 'by somebody'.~
Surely it would be so, were the piece an essay or article.  But it was an interview, wasn't it?  A little imprecision is  normal in extemporaneous speech.

[Besides which, Proulx is the author, and I agree,  Jack definitely WAS killed.... by AP herself!  Out of sheer necessity, of course.  No judge in the world would convict.]
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 04, 2009, 02:03:17 AM
http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Monday/Features/20090504095427/Article/indexpull_html

There are certain connections between Marlboro Classics and the American outdoors
that can’t be shaken off, such as horses, hats, ropes, checkered shirts and boots
— think Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal in Brokeback Mountain.

-------

Apparently, Brokeback Mountain has become a reference standard for Western Wear.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on May 04, 2009, 03:06:39 AM
Hmm... to me 'is killed' can imply an accident, but if so I would expect it to be qualified, like 'is killed in a car crash' or 'in a fire'.  Just on its own does seem to me to indicate 'by somebody'.~
Surely it would be so, were the piece an essay or article.  But it was an interview, wasn't it?  A little imprecision is  normal in extemporaneous speech.

Yes, I agree - I was only musing (never having considered it before) what 'to be killed' would normally convey to me.

Quote
Jack definitely WAS killed.... by AP herself!  Out of sheer necessity, of course.  No judge in the world would convict.

Oh yes :).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 09, 2009, 02:15:17 AM
In mid 2006 I ordered the VideoCD version of Brokeback Mountain
from Hong Kong (partially for spite since China banned the movie).

After I found out I could set my older Magnavox DVD player to
convert PAL format DVDs to NTSC (USA TV standard) , I ordered
the UK version of the movie.

Both versions are identical (uncensored) to the USA version (the
UK version plays a little fast though, 129 min. vs 134 min.).

Were/are there censored Home Video versions of the movie
released anywhere in the World?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 10, 2009, 12:49:26 AM
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/05/eminem_takes_a_crack_at_heath.html
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 10, 2009, 04:52:36 AM
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/05/eminem_takes_a_crack_at_heath.html



http://twitter.com/anderzole/status/1702807290 (http://twitter.com/anderzole/status/1702807290)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 11, 2009, 01:30:47 PM
This is an article in the April 2009 Stanford Law Review. The author uses Brokeback Mountain to make points several times in the article.



RACING THE CLOSET
Russell K. Robinson



In the last few years, despite scant empirical support, the media have identified as a primary reason for high HIV rates among black women the phenomenon of black men who live on the “down low” (or DL). Such men are said to maintain primary romantic relationships with women while engaging in secret sexual liaisons with men. Drawing on a perpetrator-victim framework, this discourse pits “deviant” black men who have sex with men (MSM) against “respectable” black women and the broader black community. Yet such media discourse tends to erase structural components that produce high HIV rates and place the blame solely on individuals ripped from their broader social context. By contrast, this Article offers a structural analysis of the issue to reveal governmental and social mechanisms that marginalize black women and black MSM. First, government policies such as mass incarceration shrink the pool of black male partners for black women and black MSM, which impacts individual decision making. Second, black women and black MSM struggle against “romantic segregation,” which assumes that blacks must mate with blacks and fails to examine nonblack men’s relative disinterest in black women and black MSM. Third, the Centers for Disease Control’s early framing of HIV/AIDS as a “gay disease” disadvantaged many black women and nongay-identified black MSM who did not recognize that they were at risk.

Analyzing discourse on the DL is important because it may have implications for criminal and public health law. In response to fears that HIV-positive people recklessly spread disease, more than half the states have passed criminal laws aimed at HIV-positive people who expose sexual partners to a risk of HIV transmission. Like the DL discourse, these laws understand HIV transmission through a crude lens of perpetrators and victims. Actual dynamics in sexual relationships tend to be far more complex and resistant to regulation by the criminal law, which helps explain the minimal number of prosecutions brought under these laws. Instead of relying on a criminal law model to reduce HIV transmission, I call for structural solutions, which may channel individual sexual behavior in productive ways, without directly regulating it.


Quote
The media and the public have applied an insidious racialized double standard to black and white men who engage in similar conduct. The black men who are depicted as having secret sex behind their wives’ backs in DL discourse horrify us, yet we see Ennis and Jack, the star-crossed lovers in the Oscar-nominated, box office hit Brokeback Mountain, as victims of the closet. When Governor Jim McGreevey came out as a “gay American,” the empathy that the public felt for his wife Dina did not require casting Jim as a villain. Thus, an important point of this Article is that we attend to our tendency to frame black and white men through radically disparate lenses even when they engage in the same underlying conduct. Juxtaposing what I call “white men on the down low” against the stories of all-black depravity featured in DL discourse makes apparent that these media stories race the closet.

Full article here: (73 pages)

http://lawreview.stanford.edu/content/vol61/issue6/Robinson.pdf (http://lawreview.stanford.edu/content/vol61/issue6/Robinson.pdf)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on May 12, 2009, 03:44:58 AM
Te most insulting thing that strikes me is to be labled "deviant" in the first place.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on May 12, 2009, 05:56:29 AM
(quoted) Second, black women and black MSM struggle against “romantic segregation,” which assumes that blacks must mate with blacks and fails to examine nonblack men’s relative disinterest in black women and black MSM.

Well, now they've identified the problem: those "nonblack men" are just being derelict in their sacred duty to have sex with politically correct partners. Where do law schools dig up these writers?

I'll reserve judgment until I get to read more of the article; but frankly, this reads like unintentional parody so far.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on June 07, 2009, 02:37:28 AM
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/story/0,28383,25599702-7484,00.html

Eskimo Joe write Foreign Land as a tribute to Heath Ledger
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on June 29, 2009, 03:36:12 PM
I came across this somewhere (I can't find the link now) on the net today
and thought it was interesting.

Quote
This evening, I was watching "From Here to Eternity" on TCM.  In that
movie, Montgomery Clift is a soldier. He meets a woman (Donna Reed)
who works in a dance hall that is frequented by soldiers.

The woman's name is Lureen, which I found rather curious, since Lureen
is not a common name. She tells Clift that Lureen is not her real name,
but a name that was given to her by the owner of the place. Her real
name is Alma!

I looked it up and the character's name is actually spelled Lorene, but I
still think it's interesting.  Watching the film you wouldn't notice a
difference in the pronunciation.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 29, 2009, 03:56:22 PM
On the subject of Momtgomery Clift, we watched "Red River" last week, and thought his performance in it was one of the few from a young actor in many, many years that came anywhere near the level achieved by Heath Ledger as Ennis del Mar in Brokeback Mountain.
Perhaps there is only one every 50 or 60 years! 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 13, 2009, 04:38:27 PM
Ang Lee pics get retrospective

The Film Society of Lincoln Center will host a complete feature film retrospective of Oscar-winning director Ang Lee from Aug. 1-11.

The retrospective, "Intimate Views from Afar: the Films of Ang Lee," will feature a live Q&A appearance by the director as well as longtime collaborator James Schamus, a screenwriter and producer on many of Lee's films.

The 11-day retrospective will kick off with Lee's 1993 breakout film "The Wedding Banquet" and conclude with screenings of both "Brokeback Mountain" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon."

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118005933.html?categoryId=13&cs=1 (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118005933.html?categoryId=13&cs=1)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 26, 2009, 09:24:38 PM
New review from a bloger in Kolkata


Brokeback Mountain


Somehow, I had missed Brokeback Mountain when the world seemed to be enraptured by it, and so after a conversation with a friend I finally sat down to it.

After the first watch, all that remained of the movie was a collection of images and a realization that never before had I been so utterly moved by a love story, for that is what it is, titles of a gay cowboy movie be damned. It is the story of a shared love, love that is not once called love through a lifetime, because it yet does not know its own name and also perhaps because it is denied by its own preperator.

The second watch still left me dazed , the sheer power of Lee's imagery is incalculable. Jack and Ennis barely speak, their dialogues, especially Ennis' are at a bare minimum and yet they wash you totally with a deep, gnawing, longing.

After the third watch to-night, I think I can finally begin to understand the different layers on which this movie is fleshed out.

What is truly heartbreaking is Ennis' tragedy of not knowing himself, He is as stoic as the mountains among which he had come to love, and in his confusion he has learnt to lock himself within his eyes that do not once overflow. He is unconnected and out of sync with the world, and in his happiness with Jack we discover his vast pain. It's not easy being different, and Ennis' difference nearly bleeds him out. 'Its a film about hearts - broken or otherwise. It's pure romance.'

There is something forlorn and broken about Ennis even as we see him in the opening scene, and he walks with a head bent forward, weight on his sturdy shoulders, all his worldly possessions in a brown paper bag. The brown paper bag would re-surface at the end, when again, he carries all that he has in this world in a brown paper bag- Two shirts, remnant of the only love he had ever experienced .

more......

http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html (http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on July 27, 2009, 01:52:21 AM
That gets right to the heart of it.  And perhaps Incognita's reply in the blog will bring a new Brokie to the Forum :).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lovelyamazing on July 27, 2009, 02:00:22 AM
Incognita aka Lovelyamazing emailed him apart from the comment and he replied. He has joined already.
sayrem is his name
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on July 27, 2009, 02:11:35 AM
Good for you, Maya.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lovelyamazing on July 27, 2009, 02:13:23 AM
Good for you, Maya.

Good for us Sara!!!! :) :) :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on July 27, 2009, 03:27:43 AM
Sayrem described the feelings he had, (we all had), so well. Well done Maya.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lovelyamazing on July 27, 2009, 03:56:57 AM
John found him Jess  :) :)
He has a beautiful blog.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on July 27, 2009, 12:58:53 PM
On the subject of Momtgomery Clift, we watched "Red River" last week, and thought his performance in it was one of the few from a young actor in many, many years that came anywhere near the level achieved by Heath Ledger as Ennis del Mar in Brokeback Mountain.
Perhaps there is only one every 50 or 60 years! 

RED RIVER is one of my all time favorite films, Jess.
Monty Clift looks so beautiful.
I also love the cinematography and art direction.
Love Clift's perfornamce as well as John Wayne's.
Also love John Ireland (I think this is the film in which he met Joanne Dru, who plays the object of Clift's affections, and later married her.)
There's a funny scene in which Ireland caresses his gun which is a trifle odd.
Love the scene near the begiinning as the cowboys shout to start the cattle moving and the music swells in the background.
Cowboy bliss for a little girl growing up on the lower east side of NYC.  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on July 27, 2009, 03:28:33 PM
RED RIVER is one of my all time favorite films, Jess.

There's a funny scene in which Ireland caresses his gun which is a trifle odd.

Actually it has be argued that there is quite a bit of homoerotic subtext in several of the scenes in "Red River".
The scene you mention also includes that rather bizarre "I'll show you my gun if you'll show me yours" (paraphrase) dialogue.
In addition there is all that cigarette rolling and saliva swapping.
Clifts' "eating a blade of grass" scene.
And then there is Dru's big third act "see everyone knows you love one another" line.
And finally, the "brand" is of a "D" and an "M".  The D representing Wayne's character's last name and the "M'
representing Clifts' character's first name. (Matt)
None of it adds up to much as far as I am concerned but many would disagree.

Of course, homoerotic subtext in several of Howard Hawks' films has been
discussed for years, I guess.
Everything from "Bringing Up Baby" in which Cary Grant inexplicably exclaims he is "gay",
(Legend has it this is an ad-lib on the part of Grant),
to Jane Russell's rendition of "Ain't There Anyone Here for Love" which she sings
to a chorus of rather odd "bodybuilders".  This scene is SO totally homoerotic blatant  that
for years it was cut from television broadcasts of the film.
Hawks did not "direct" any of the musical/dance segments of "Gentleman Prefer Blondes" however.
Jack Cole did and he and Gwen Verdon did the choreography.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Disisme on July 28, 2009, 12:48:16 AM
how did you come across my blog in the first place john ???
New review from a bloger in Kolkata


Brokeback Mountain


Somehow, I had missed Brokeback Mountain when the world seemed to be enraptured by it, and so after a conversation with a friend I finally sat down to it.

After the first watch, all that remained of the movie was a collection of images and a realization that never before had I been so utterly moved by a love story, for that is what it is, titles of a gay cowboy movie be damned. It is the story of a shared love, love that is not once called love through a lifetime, because it yet does not know its own name and also perhaps because it is denied by its own preperator.

The second watch still left me dazed , the sheer power of Lee's imagery is incalculable. Jack and Ennis barely speak, their dialogues, especially Ennis' are at a bare minimum and yet they wash you totally with a deep, gnawing, longing.

After the third watch to-night, I think I can finally begin to understand the different layers on which this movie is fleshed out.

What is truly heartbreaking is Ennis' tragedy of not knowing himself, He is as stoic as the mountains among which he had come to love, and in his confusion he has learnt to lock himself within his eyes that do not once overflow. He is unconnected and out of sync with the world, and in his happiness with Jack we discover his vast pain. It's not easy being different, and Ennis' difference nearly bleeds him out. 'Its a film about hearts - broken or otherwise. It's pure romance.'

There is something forlorn and broken about Ennis even as we see him in the opening scene, and he walks with a head bent forward, weight on his sturdy shoulders, all his worldly possessions in a brown paper bag. The brown paper bag would re-surface at the end, when again, he carries all that he has in this world in a brown paper bag- Two shirts, remnant of the only love he had ever experienced .

more......

http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html (http://sayrem.blogspot.com/2009/07/somehow-i-had-missed-brokeback-mountain.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lovelyamazing on July 28, 2009, 02:17:35 AM
Hello Disisme and Welcome aboard.
I was going to ask John the same question ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on July 28, 2009, 02:54:20 AM
A big welcome from me, Disisyou :D.  Look forward to your posts.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on July 28, 2009, 06:42:44 AM
And me. We have only had LovelyAmazing, (and she is), in Kolkata before, and I know she will appreciate another member from her home city.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 28, 2009, 09:44:22 AM
how did you come across my blog in the first place john ???

Welcome to the forum.

I found your blog by doing a Google search of "Brokeback Mountain" and sorting the results by date.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 28, 2009, 11:16:23 AM
I found this from a blogger in the Philippines today

Nino Manaog
Bikolandia, Filipinas



The beauty of the unexpressed
 

To most people, nothing seems more beautiful than the drama of the repressed, the beauty of the unexpressed.

WITH “BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN,” film director Ang Lee presents himself as a symbolist, a minimalist, and a lot more.

Based on Annie Proulx’s Pulitzer-winning novel, “Brokeback Mountain” is an apt label for Lee’s masterpiece on how the lives of two cowboys—the tightlipped Ennis del Mar and the rodeo-loving Jack Twist—are made meaningful and even tragic by their summer experience in the wild. In Brokeback Mountain, the two cowboys have their own Walden experience, or epiphanies—something that they will hold on to for the rest of their lives—but that later turns out to be against social conventions, a dilemma to resolve that it makes tragic heroes out of them.

AS A SYMBOLIST, Ang Lee shows so much by concealing many things. Ennis del Mar’s restrained affectation for his friend Jack Twist with whom he shares a steamy summer in 1963 predominantly figures in the end as tragedy.

A plethora of symbols prevails in the masterpiece. First, the sheep being tended by the two cowboys are the juxtaposition for Ennis del Mar, one whose restraint and silence seems the most deafening to all the other characters. The meekness of the sheep being tended by the two main characters delineates Ennis’ inability to articulate his own preference, living in an otherwise homophobic society. Like the sheep feasted on by the obscure [the unseen social ridicule] wolves, Ennis del Mar confines himself to avoid the stigma from his outward relationship with another man.



more..........

http://ninomanaog.blogspot.com/2009/07/beauty-of-unexpressed.html (http://ninomanaog.blogspot.com/2009/07/beauty-of-unexpressed.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on July 28, 2009, 03:56:36 PM
'The beauty of the unexpressed.'
Perfectly expressed.
Sometimes it takes a newcomer to the field to coin an absolutely gorgeous phrase.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on July 28, 2009, 05:25:01 PM
Actually it has be argued that there is quite a bit of homoerotic subtext in several of the scenes in "Red River".
The scene you mention also includes that rather bizarre "I'll show you my gun if you'll show me yours" (paraphrase) dialogue.
In addition there is all that cigarette rolling and saliva swapping.
Clifts' "eating a blade of grass" scene.
And then there is Dru's big third act "see everyone knows you love one another" line.
And finally, the "brand" is of a "D" and an "M".  The D representing Wayne's character's last name and the "M'
representing Clifts' character's first name. (Matt)
None of it adds up to much as far as I am concerned but many would disagree.

Of course, homoerotic subtext in several of Howard Hawks' films has been
discussed for years, I guess.
Everything from "Bringing Up Baby" in which Cary Grant inexplicably exclaims he is "gay",
(Legend has it this is an ad-lib on the part of Grant),
to Jane Russell's rendition of "Ain't There Anyone Here for Love" which she sings
to a chorus of rather odd "bodybuilders".  This scene is SO totally homoerotic blatant  that
for years it was cut from television broadcasts of the film.
Hawks did not "direct" any of the musical/dance segments of "Gentleman Prefer Blondes" however.
Jack Cole did and he and Gwen Verdon did the choreography.




I thought there was quite a lot of homoerotic subtext to "Red River" too. I will watch it again when I can and try a little further analysis in view of your thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: chapeaugris on July 29, 2009, 12:09:13 AM
Has Topic of the Week been discontinued?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on July 29, 2009, 03:06:38 AM
No, Topic of the week will continue, it's just that due to a lot of people being on holiday (including Chuck and myself) we thought we could let it slide for a week.  Normal service will continue when the rabble get back to their respective cubicles ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: AZ.bbm on July 29, 2009, 08:08:13 AM
No, Topic of the week will continue, it's just that due to a lot of people being on holiday (including Chuck and myself) we thought we could let it slide for a week.  Normal service will continue when the rabble get back to their respective cubicles ;D

So, after 45 weeks of TOTW, now we KNOW what "WITHDRAWAL" feels like ... ?! :P :P :P

(To: S&I folks: -- Please, "don't go there"-LOL) >:D ;D


-Az

P.S. I just noticed that I'm officially "Obsessed" ?!
Well, the beers are on me!  8) 8) 8)


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on July 29, 2009, 08:16:05 AM
Well done Az, as long as it's not 6 6 6

PS mine's a pint (of dry martini)

(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h95/naxman_photos/BBM/es.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: AZ.bbm on July 29, 2009, 08:20:26 AM
Thanks, NAX,

Just name your "poison" !!!  >:D ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nax on July 29, 2009, 10:11:58 AM
Thanks, NAX,

Just name your "poison" !!!  >:D ;D

Electric soup (as below)
Margaritas
Single malt Whisky (Isle of Islay for preference)
Beer (bitter or Belgian Trapist)
0
So many poisons ;D (getting off topic here! perhaps we should start a "What's your poison" thread...mmmm off to "Start your own threads" meet me there ::)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on July 29, 2009, 11:08:35 AM
Electric soup (as below)
Margaritas
Single malt Whisky (Isle of Islay for preference)
Beer (bitter or Belgian Trapist)
0
So many poisons ;D (getting off topic here! perhaps we should start a "What's your poison" thread...mmmm off to "Start your own threads" meet me there ::)


wow, nax is quick!

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=37046.msg1635839#new
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on August 01, 2009, 07:51:59 PM
As we know Ennis and Jack were of the same age. Jack mentioned the army on his goodbye to Ennis after coming down off Brokeback . He must have gone for his medical as he said " he was too busted up" for the army to be interested in him. In the reading of the book and the viewing of the film Ennis was A1 fit so how come he was never drafted?? ( hypothetical question)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on August 01, 2009, 08:34:10 PM
Married with children.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on August 01, 2009, 08:40:39 PM
Don't they get drafted in USA then if married with children?  Didn't know that.  Was the Vietnam War going on then? I thought they drafted as many as they could for that?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 01, 2009, 11:38:47 PM
Don't they get drafted in USA then if married with children?  Didn't know that.  Was the Vietnam War going on then? I thought they drafted as many as they could for that?

There was a deferement, III-A:  "Registrant with a child or children; registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents"

There was a deferrment for being married from 1948 thru 1956. In 1956 the deferement was changed to exclude married men without children. 

in 1963, Kennedy signed an order stating that "All fathers with a bona-fide paternity relationship " would be deferred, This included unmarried men.

Men who were married after Aug 26, 1965 lost any preferential deferment.

Nixon signed an order that eliminated the paternity deferment for fathers of children conceived after April 23, 1970

As of May 23, 1973 marital status no longer affects draft availability.


another possible deferment could have been II-C:  "Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: foreverinawe on August 03, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
another possible deferment could have been II-C:  "Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation"

And another possibility:

"Ennis, high-arched nose and narrow face, was scruffy and a little cave-chested, balanced a small torso on long, calipered legs, possessed a muscular and supple body made for the horse and for fighting. His reflexes were uncommonly quick, and he was far-sighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog."

He was far-sighted, sometimes a medical disqualifier, depending on how bad the army needs men.

Annie had that covered from the get-go.

   ~~~fia
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on August 06, 2009, 08:17:16 PM
There was a deferement, III-A:  "Registrant with a child or children; registrant deferred by reason of extreme hardship to dependents"

There was a deferrment for being married from 1948 thru 1956. In 1956 the deferement was changed to exclude married men without children. 

in 1963, Kennedy signed an order stating that "All fathers with a bona-fide paternity relationship " would be deferred, This included unmarried men.

Men who were married after Aug 26, 1965 lost any preferential deferment.

Nixon signed an order that eliminated the paternity deferment for fathers of children conceived after April 23, 1970

As of May 23, 1973 marital status no longer affects draft availability.


another possible deferment could have been II-C:  "Registrant deferred because of agricultural occupation"



wow thanks for this --

I had always wondered why Jack was worried about the army, but Ennis wasn't worried.

I don't know if they had the "lottery" draft numbers then.  Some guys knew they were more likely to be drafted.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on August 07, 2009, 05:26:13 AM
Thanks for the info BCG.Ihad forgotten I had done this post.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on August 07, 2009, 09:00:56 AM
I don't know if they had the "lottery" draft numbers then. 
They didn't yet.  First one was in '68 or '9.  The numbers were announcered over the radio, that first year.  I believe the ratings were high for that show.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on August 16, 2009, 10:10:53 AM
Hiya everyone!

There's a new poll that asks "What's The Best Movie Drama of the Decade".

Brokeback is on the list, and it's in last place.  Of course, the site hosting the poll is ESPN, a man's sports network.

:D :D :D

If you want to help boost BBM's numbers, click the link to vote!


http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/poll?event_id=3871
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fofol on August 17, 2009, 01:48:14 PM
Don't they get drafted in USA then if married with children?  Didn't know that.  Was the Vietnam War going on then? I thought they drafted as many as they could for that?

   In 1967, seven of the straight guys in my home town got married in one month (coincidentally, August) successfully avoiding the draft, staying out of Viet Nam.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 19, 2009, 02:48:12 PM
Notre Dame University

CONGRATULATIONS TO OUR 2009 GENDER STUDIES
UNDERGRADUATE WRITING AWARD RECIPIENTS

Philip L. Quinn Essay Prize

- Megan Baker ‘09
Majors: English and Film, Television and Theatre

“‘Everyone has their own Brokeback Mountain’: Negotiating the Radical and the Mainstream”


These diverse responses to Brokeback Mountain attest to the multiple meanings at work
in the film. Comments like Joe’s, Estella’s, and Larry’s are illustrative examples of how
Brokeback’s viewers can approach the various negotiations of its elements and produce their
own interpretations of its significance. To declare that the film is “not gay,” “too gay,” or
anything else in between is to completely ignore Brokeback’s work against firm and fixed
categories. By blending conventional form with an unconventional subject, mixing the generic
codes of the Western and the melodrama, and uniting the aggressiveness and tenderness of gay
male desire, Ang Lee is able make a progressive case without isolating any audience. Straight
women can weep over Brokeback like they did over Titanic. Lesbian women can relate it to their
own experiences. Straight men can identify with the cowboys’ rough masculinity. Gay men can
identify with the intensity of Jack and Ennis’ love. Brokeback speaks to universal themes;
Brokeback speaks to more specific struggles.

In its resistance to being any one thing, it becomes many different things for many different viewers.

The mainstream does not own Brokeback, for “everyone has their own.”

http://www.nd.edu/~gender/awards/documents/MBakerBrokeback.pdf (http://www.nd.edu/~gender/awards/documents/MBakerBrokeback.pdf)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on August 19, 2009, 05:46:41 PM
Does anyone know who had the idea of the iconic publicity design of the faces of Ennis and Jack that is used on everything appertaining to BBM??
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 19, 2009, 06:04:14 PM
Maybe the same people who did the Titanic poster?

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/brokeback_titanic.jpg)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on August 19, 2009, 06:27:32 PM
Funny how when I watch Titanic, I always hope the ship misses the iceberg  ... just like I hope the BBM postcard doesn't say 'DECEASED.'

Unfortunately, it never works.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 19, 2009, 06:41:15 PM
Brokeback Poster not a Titanic Accident

When it came time to design the poster for the film, [co-president of Focus Features and frequent Lee collaborator James] Schamus didn't research posters of famous Westerns for ideas. He looked at the posters of the 50 most romantic movies ever made. "If you look at our poster," he says, "you can see traces of our inspiration, 'Titanic'."

The posters, pictured above, reveal more than just "traces" of similarity; they are nearly matching sets of pretty young matinee idols in love, all long lashes pointing meaningfully to the ground and chins nuzzled longingly onto shoulders. Indeed, even the bough of the Titanic is echoed in size and shape to Heath's denim-clad, sturdy left arm.

http://defamer.gawker.com/hollywood/brokeback-mountain/jake-and-heath-their-love-will-go-on-137271.php (http://defamer.gawker.com/hollywood/brokeback-mountain/jake-and-heath-their-love-will-go-on-137271.php)

The original Newsweek article has been moved:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/51191/page/2 (http://www.newsweek.com/id/51191/page/2)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 19, 2009, 09:03:01 PM
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/Brokeback/BBMThesis0609.jpg)


Title: Visual Effects and the Test of Time

Author: Wagener, Thomas Dane Degree Bachelor of Science of Media Arts and Studies (BSC), Ohio University Honors Tutorial College, Media Arts and Studies, 2009.

Committee / Advisors: Beth Novak MFA (Advisor)
Arthur Cromwell PhD (Other)

Pages 114p.

Abstract:

This thesis discusses why certain visual effects films stand the test of time, while others do not. Some films' effects become outdated very quickly, even within a year, regardless of how critically and popularly acclaimed they were upon their release. Yet others, like Jurassic Park, remain effective over a decade later. I analyzed 10 films, covering both "good" and "bad" effects films, as well as a wide variety of different types of effects films : Jurassic Park, Forrest Gump, The Day After Tomorrow, Transformers, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, Brokeback Mountain, The Bucket List, Children of Men, and War of the Worlds. Through my analysis, I discuss the importance of matchmoving, compositing, controlled scale of effects, as well as the role of cinematography in visual effects, and most importantly, the critical role of story.
The thesis also includes a short history of special and visual effects, including the all-important Digital Revolution of effects films.


Preview


(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/Brokeback/BBMThesis0609a.jpg)


http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Wagener%20Thomas%20Dane.pdf?acc_num=ouhonors1244204910 (http://www.ohiolink.edu/etd/send-pdf.cgi/Wagener%20Thomas%20Dane.pdf?acc_num=ouhonors1244204910)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on August 20, 2009, 03:35:09 PM
Thanks BCJ for all the info. To tell you the truth I never paid too much attention to the film "Titanic" and cannot recall seeing a poster of it at all. Yea,Yea,I know.....what planet am I on!!!. Therefore never noticed the similarities.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Britney on August 20, 2009, 10:41:39 PM
I never saw Titanic when it was in the theaters, so I never saw the poster either.

Now that I see it I can really see the similarities.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 21, 2009, 04:51:17 AM
Brokeback is a much better film though!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on August 21, 2009, 01:58:05 PM
Brokeback is a much better film than any  film!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 21, 2009, 03:35:32 PM
Sonja, I think you might have a point there!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on August 22, 2009, 06:07:17 AM
 :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on August 22, 2009, 03:22:55 PM
Bets film. Best actors. Best location. What more can we say!!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on August 30, 2009, 11:43:07 PM
http://www.skibrokeback.com

I just found this with Google,
it may have existed since 2006.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 22, 2009, 12:59:02 PM
Homoeroticism’s Poet Pioneer

Daniel Mendelsohn documents the mid-life emergence of C.P. Cavafy’s modern queer voice

The simultaneous publication by Knopf of two new translations of the poetry of Constantine Cavafy is a literary event of major importance and for queer readers a particular cause for rejoicing, for these twin volumes should help solidify Cavafy’s stature as one of the great poets of the 20th century. It also provides striking confirmation that he wrote some of the greatest homoerotic poems of all time.

I say “20th century” because, even though Cavafy — who was born in 1863 and died in 1933— spent more than half his life in the 19th century, his finest poems, and those for which he is today best remembered, were all written or revised after 1900; that work represented a remarkable and still somewhat mysterious mid-life transformation of a decent, middling poet into a preeminent one. And because the influential, spare, controlled free verse that flowed from his pen after his reincarnation is so modern, it could have been written yesterday. Even the great W. H. Auden confessed his debt to Cavafy, when he wrote, “I can think of poems which, if Cavafy were unknown to me, I should have written quite differently, or perhaps not written at all.”

“C.P. Cavafy: Collected Poems” and “C.P. Cavafy: The Unfinished Poems” are both the work of the excellent Daniel Mendelsohn, who translated them and provides extensive introductions and commentaries. A Princeton-trained classicist who teaches at Bard, Mendelsohn is best known to queer readers as the author of the original and stimulating memoir-cum-cultural commentary “An Elusive Embrace: Desire and the Riddle of Identity,” which refracted his own queer experiences through the prism of Greek mythology. Although criticized by some sex-negative hetero reviewers for being replete with accounts of his own erotic adventures, “An Elusive Embrace” was a New York Times Notable Book and a Los Angeles Times Best Book of the Year.

Among his other works, last year Mendelsohn published “How Beautiful It Is and How Easily It Can Be Broken” (Harper), a collection of his scintillating literary and film essays from the New York Review of Books, including his right-on contrarian challenge to the convention that “Brokeback Mountain” was about love in general, and not just gay love. Mendelsohn argued that to believe that the “normality” of the two main characters takes them beyond their gayness is to imply that gayness makes them something other than normal.

With Cavafy’s ”Unfinished Poems,” Mendelsohn brings us the very first English translation of a cache of some 30 poems from Cavafy’s later years that remained hidden for three decades after his death, and includes such gems as the defense of same-sex love in “The Photograph” (1924):

Looking at the photograph of a chum of his,

at his beautiful youthful face

that forever more; — the photograph

was dated ‘Ninety-two,

the sadness of what passes came upon him.

But he draws comfort from the fact that at least

he didn’t let — they didn’t let any foolish shame

get in the way of their love, or make it ugly.

To the “degenerates,” “obscene” of the imbeciles

their sensual sensibility paid no heed
.

http://gaycitynews.com/articles/2009/09/21/gay_city_news/editors_latest/doc4ab287d7c0317856592549.txt (http://gaycitynews.com/articles/2009/09/21/gay_city_news/editors_latest/doc4ab287d7c0317856592549.txt)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on September 26, 2009, 03:34:00 AM
http://www.film.com/features/story/best-male-performance-00s-final/30219710

"Vote early and often, voting ends on Wednesday, September 30 at noon PST."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 05, 2009, 05:36:07 PM
Spaces of Desire: Liminality and Abjection in Brokeback Mountain

by Fran Pheasant-Kelly

Analyses of Ang Lee’s Brokeback Mountain (2005) inevitably centre on the sexuality of its two male protagonists or the relationship between the film and the Western genre. Other studies focus on the aesthetics of its cinematography, particularly that of its lush panoramic vistas. Since the mountain itself functions as metaphor for the relationship between the two central protagonists, there is also commentary on the association between the landscape and sexuality. The often-primal nature of the mountain creates obvious opportunities for psychoanalytical readings in relation to sexuality. Occasionally, such readings implicate Julia Kristeva’s (1982) work, Powers of Horror, interpreting the instinctual and visceral aspects of Brokeback Mountain as abject.

This article extends these psychoanalytical readings, but, rather than focusing on the visceral aspects of the body as other studies have done, it refers to abjection in relation to subjectivity and space. It also draws upon David Sibley’s (1995) Geographies of Exclusion, negotiating the ambiguous nature of urban, interior, and borderland spaces evident within the film. It thus correlates the various settings with aspects of sexual identity, and proposes a relationship between desire, space, and abjection.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction

Brokeback Mountain (2005) follows the relationship that develops between two men, Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) and Jack Twist (Jake Gyllenhaal). While their first sexual encounters take place in the outback area where the two men work, the film traces the ways in which they subsequently repress their mutual feelings within the homophobic small town environments in which they live; in spite of this, however, they maintain their friendship, intermittently reuniting at Brokeback Mountain.

Since this film centres on two ranch hands and is partly set in the wilderness, critical analysis inevitably tends to consider its relationship to the Western genre (Kitses, 2007; Spohrer, 2009). Often, attention focuses on the spaces of the film in relation to the binary oppositions commonly associated with the Western, such as that of civilisation and wilderness. Other studies examine representations of masculinity or homosexuality within the film (Barounis, 2009; Benshoff and Griffin, 2009; Boucher and Pinto, 2007; Harris 2007; McDonald, 2007; Perez, 2007). As the setting of Brokeback Mountain functions as metaphor for the homosexual relationship of the two protagonists, there is also commentary on the association between the landscape and their sexuality (Boyle, 2007; Todd, 2009). The primal nature of the mountain creates obvious opportunities for psychoanalytical readings in relation to sexuality. Occasionally, psychoanalytical readings implicate Kristeva’s notion of abjection (1982) in the social and cultural spaces of the film. For example, Ian Todd (2009) examines abjection in relation to the inside/outside dialectic of the homosexual ‘closet’. He further assigns Brokeback Mountain as abject because of its scenes of bodily transgression and violation. This article also textually analyses Brokeback Mountain with reference to Kristeva’s theory of abjection but extends these psychoanalytical readings. Firstly, it explores abjection in relation to subjectivity rather than focusing solely on its visceral aspects. Secondly, it draws upon Sibley’s (1995) Geographies of Exclusion (itself derived from Kristeva’s work) and his concept of ‘liminal zones’, negotiating the indeterminate nature of domestic interiors and small town space that the film presents. This re-reading of abjection within the film therefore correlates sexuality with setting, exploring the relationship between desire, space, and abjection. It suggests that Brokeback Mountain visually and narratively prioritises certain spaces, and organises them in a dialectical relationship that reflects aspects of homosexuality and its repression.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

full article...

http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22 (http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 06, 2009, 03:43:57 PM
Preserving Our Queer Legacy

The remarks below were delivered by Alan Poul upon receiving the Legacy Award at Wednesday night's (9/30) benefit for the Outfest Legacy Project at the Directors Guild of America. Outfest is Los Angeles' Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, and the Legacy Project is dedicated to the preservation and archiving of LGBT material. Poul was introduced by Laura Linney, with whom he worked on the three miniseries based on Armistead Maupin's "Tales of the City" books.


I was struck by the cover story in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine. In it, Benoit Denizet-Lewis chronicles the coming-out stories of middle school children in middle-America -- 14 and 15-year-olds in Oklahoma and Michigan -- and their fearlessness in announcing their sexual identity to parents and peers, even when many of them are not yet sexually active. Of course the Internet is the key component here: think you're a total misfit? Search and click on a link, and whoa! there's another person just like you. (I could have used that.)

But let's not underestimate the potency of complex narrative images, of LGBT lives portrayed with depth, with artistry, and with authenticity, in empowering and legitimizing young people to accept themselves.

When I was a kid, there was no such thing. My generation remembers desperately searching for images that would speak to the desires we were aware of from such an early age, and coming up with nothing -- at least, nothing that didn't end with Shirley MacLaine hanging herself. On television, we had to apply our own private decoder rings to relationships that hinted at something more than mere friendship -- to Felix and Oscar, to Laverne and Shirley, to the Skipper and Gilligan, with the Professor as an occasional third. It wasn't until I hit my teens in the seventies that genuine homoerotic images began to surface, and the first ones I saw were burned into my eyelids -- the Peter Finch/Murray Head kiss in "Sunday Bloody Sunday," at which my suburban Philadelphia audience recoiled in disgust; the careful, sweet embrace of two English boarding school students in Lindsay Anderson's "If....", the mutual groping of Barbara Hershey that Richard Thomas and Bruce Davison so enjoyed in "Last Summer."

These images were an inspiration and a life raft for me, and I want to protect them forever, even if they won't mean anything to most 13-year-olds today. There is a connection between the bravery it takes to come out, at any age, and our responsibility to preserve and restore LGBT imagery wherever we find it. It might not be direct -- it's unlikely that a self-doubting, tortured 13-year-old is going to find the strength to come out by watching "Sunday Bloody Sunday," or even "Parting Glances." But there's a link, and as we know, links are how we get our information these days. Link to link to link, we are creating a context for our visual and narrative history where until recently there was none. Somewhere there's a 13-year-old who'll appreciate these films, and I want him or her to have that access. That's why we archive.

My history with Outfest is long and happy. I joined the board in 1996, during a period when the festival was beginning its transition from a smaller, activist-oriented gathering to the huge, inclusive, industry-friendly celebration it has become. During my tenure, we saw the first great flowering of gay independent cinema, here and abroad, and Outfest films from those years include such landmarks as Lukas Moodysson's "Show Me Love," Tommy O'Haver's "Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss," David Moreton's "Edge of Seventeen," Douglas Keeve's "Unzipped," John Greyson's "Lilies," Randy Barbato and Fenton Bailey's "Party Monster," Jeff Dupre's "Out of the Past," Michael Cuesta's "L.I.E.," Sandi Dubowski's "Trembling Before G-d," Cheryl Dunye's "The Watermelon Woman," and many others that have gone on to become classics -- and not just gay classics at that. I'm so proud of that list.

Our board helped shape Outfest, but even more, Outfest shaped my consciousness of what Los Angeles can be. More than any prior event, Outfest brought together the very diverse and often segregated LGBT communities of L.A. under one roof and gave us a chance to look at each other, to enjoy the same entertainment, to laugh and cry together, and to realize our combined strength. In a city that seems custom-designed for isolation and cliquishness, that was no mean feat.

I am currently developing a pilot for HBO, together with Carolyn Strauss, Lily Tomlin, Jane Wagner, John Hoffman, and Peggy Healey, based on the famous Ann Bannon novels of the 1950's. These were lesbian pulp fiction paperbacks, surprisingly popular in their day, with titles like "Odd Girl Out" and "Women in the Shadows." In doing research for the period, we are constantly hampered by the paucity of filmed material. Every frame of what exists must be preserved, and it's part of the mission of the Legacy Project, in managing the fabled One Foundation archives and other private archives which comprise home movies and other personal materials, that is so crucial in this area. Once this stuff decomposes, it's gone, and so is our history.

The word "legacy" is fraught with self-importance, but let's consider what it really means. A legacy is, simply, that which is handed down. Our own legacy, 50 years from now, is likely to consist largely of the narrative content that we are creating now, in our time. Yes, reality TV is full of fully-drawn gay characters, but, as everyone knows, reality doesn't repeat well. 50 years from now it's unlikely people will be watching the exploits of Christian Siriano. For better or worse, narrative fiction has the edge on shelf life. It's the record of the context of our times which we consciously create. "Milk" will last forever. "Brokeback" will last forever. Richard Hatch will not.






Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-poul/preserving-our-queer-lega_b_311511.html
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 08, 2009, 11:58:29 AM
Shepherding Romance

Reviving the Politics of Romantic Love in Brokeback Mountain

By BARBARA KOZIAK

[1] The recent film, Brokeback Mountain, directed by Ang Lee and based on Annie Proulx’s short story, received an overwhelmingly admiring response from newspaper and magazine film critics, won a series of prominent film awards, and roused a large, fervent fan base.  Several large on-line discussion forums created in the months following the film’s release analyze every scene, symbol, and character, and remain to this day communities with interests that have expanded beyond the film.  Coinciding with the emergence of You Tube and a new amateur video culture, fan enthusiasm created both lyrical tributes and hilarious parodies on video websites.  A mini-Brokeback tourist industry emerged, with one website devoting itself to mapping and photographing every shooting location for every scene.  These web-based responses culminated in net-generated cultural activism and even the popular naming of a new syndrome, “Brokeback Mountain Fever.”


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[34] In the end, what has elicited so many fans is certainly the deliberately etched romance narrative, and the density of the characterization, locale, and geography, that repay extensive interpretation and analysis.  It is also that combination of longing and grief, a communal experience of grief for two characters, which has affected viewers. Many people reported being sleepless the night after first seeing the film, going back to see it again and again, with each viewing revealing different dimensions, and for weeks finding themselves tossed by waves of grief as though they themselves were unrequitedly in love. The desire to understand the experience drove many to seek out forums to share the experience.  “Brokeback got us good,” Jack’s line to Ennis, would be the byline for the forums.  The heart of the “Ultimate Brokeback Forum” community (http://davecullen.com/forum), the largest forum, with over 7,000 registered members, resides in the topic threads devoted to every imaginable aspect of the film—every significant scene has its own topic; separate threads are devoted to, for example, symbolism, music, to every actor, and to “Brokeback Mountain Fever Support” and “How Brokeback Affected Me.”   Although other forums exist, including www.ennisjack.com, with more than 4,000 members, community.livejournal.com/wranglers, principally a slash forum for posting new writing that incorporates the original characters, with more than 2,000 members, and www.bettermost.net/forum, with 1200 members.  The David Cullen forum is the largest and the most active on a variety of fronts.  The community this forum created engaged in varied actions to recognize and disseminate the power of Brokeback, first by using small donations to pay for an advertisement run in the trade newspaper, Variety, reminding readers that even after the surprise Oscar loss, it was the most honored movie of the year.  Next, a campaign was launched to have members donate copies of the DVD to U.S. public libraries, especially rural libraries.  Finally, with volunteer editors, the group recently published Beyond Brokeback, a book compilation of the best forum posts about the personal effects of the film (Ultimate Brokeback Forum).




[35] The book in particular evinces the impact of the film as a romantic love story, but also as a galvanizer of personal and political action.  While forum participants are a self-selected group and their posts were further selected by volunteer editors, the book's pieces reflect the extraordinary combination of personal, emotional, and political transformation and engagement incited by the film.  The effect crossed sexualities of gay, straight, bisexual, or ambiguous, and some were inspired to search out old friends and lovers while others were inspired to quit jobs or seek therapy.  The most common general understanding of the film viewed it as a warning to those who had lost, or never found, courage or hope in various spheres of life—a warning about the half-life Ennis tried to live—but of course the most persistently noted loss was of transcending love.

[36] Many posters emphatically write about the place of romantic love in their own lives.  Some straight posters were newly dissatisfied with their marriages or, conversely, realized they had been taking their partners for granted; others took the step to leave their straight relationships and commit to same-sex partners.  For some gay men, the movie was a revelation of the possibilities of romantic love against the constrictions experienced even with a gay male culture of multiple short-term partners or else just an unexplained emotional constriction.  A gay, thirty-six-year-old journalist, for example, realized he had understood heterosexual love stories only intellectually, but with Brokeback he could finally feel the paradigm:  "Is this what mainstream love stories . . . feel like for heterosexuals?” (93). Similarly, a sixty-one-year-old man writes, "They've allowed me to feel what real love must feel like.  I was straight and married for seven years; after I had a gay partner for fifteen years, but no love, just settling.  Now I feel that I deserve to know what real love is” (210).  A forty-three-year-old man who in his youth engaged in an intense friendship with a male roommate writes, “I thought that coming out would remove the unseen obstacles and make finding love easier, but now . . . I see that hasn't been the case.  I've found plenty of this and that, but never anything approximating the heart-binder that started it all” (81).  Another gay man, happy enough in a secure, comfortable relationship, fell into a passionate love affair, eventually ending it to avoid hurting his partner.  Now, after seeing the film, he questions whether he made the right decision (82).  Thus some men were actually introduced for the first time to the paradigm scenario of romantic love.  Previously, they had been unable to identify with heterosexual stories, and the scenario was missing from their experience of gay culture.  Others who had experienced passionate love now had the transcendent value of love affirmed by the experience of the film.  At the same time, some straight viewers were reminded of the same paradigm but were able to identify or care for same-sex characters.  Thus, that old model of romantic love was resuscitated but in a communal context; people were talking about movie, and therefore often about love, en mass.

[37] The forum participants talked about love but seemed to come to the forum through a shared emotive experience.  These discussions were incited by a complex and multi-layered communal sharing of grief, longing, and joy, a potent mix of emotion dubbed "Brokeback Mountain Fever."  One poster described leaving the theater stunned and pulling off the road to cry (10). Another wrote that she "would wake up in the middle of the night with scenes and music from the movie in my head, weeping uncontrollably" (181).  The grief seemed to be both directed at the characters themselves, as many viewers felt a maternal affection for the two young lovers, or even a vicarious state of unrequited love for a character or the film as a whole, but this was also entangled with surprise grief from their own lives.  One poster describes a broad, encompassing grief that crosses demographic lines, saying the film “opened a bottomless well of sadness in them that they didn't know existed” (54).  In fact, as the poster notes, Annie Proulx thought that because of the recent death of his father, Ang Lee could evoke the dirge-like quality of the story.  At the same time, an erotic longing was mixed into this grief and precisely set the grounds for grief.  Probably the best articulation of this fever was posted by “Valkyrie:”  "After I saw the movie for the first time, I was stunned and could barely talk.  Images and scenes flashed through my mind.  I could hardly sleep.  And then it started: waves of pleasure rolled over me, sometimes like lightning flashes sizzling through my body, again and again . . . I kept seeing the love scenes repeatedly with my inner eyes.  And I started feeling aroused most of the time.  Sometimes I cried from grief and pain, but then the pleasure waves started again” (205).  Thus the film portrays not only the hoary romantic love narrative, but through its reconfiguration of elements, particularly I believe through its reconstitution of masculinity and its challenge to the heteronormativity of love, evokes a common audience response that recaptures the vicarious emotional feel of orthodox romantic love.  A significant audience, in other words, fell in love, passionately and bodily with the film, with the characters, and with the actors.  In the early days there was a rush to see the film over and over again, and the forum posters confessed or boasted of the number of their visits to the theater, some seeing the movie ten to twenty times.  A similar upsurge in viewings and interpretative dissections came with the release of the DVD in 2006 and the added bonus of being able to stop, rewind, capture, and manipulate images from the film.  Now posters are able to delve into the question of, for example, what Ennis and Jack whispered to each other at the start of the second tent scene (consensual answer:  Ennis: “I’m sorry.”  Jack: “It’s alright, it’s alright.”).  The obsession, the grief, and the longing, all components of “Brokeback Mountain Fever,” perfectly encapsulate the emotional experience of classical romantic love.

http://www.genders.org/g50/g50_koziak.html (http://www.genders.org/g50/g50_koziak.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on October 10, 2009, 01:31:47 PM
Shepherding Romance

Reviving the Politics of Romantic Love in Brokeback Mountain

By BARBARA KOZIAK


This is a most interesting article.
The first I've seen that actually attempts to describe (and explain?) us, our reactions to the film and our forum.

Thanks for posting it John!!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 12, 2009, 12:48:52 PM
CALL FOR PAPERS

The Philosophy of Ang Lee
Edited by Robert Arp

Please send these two things to:        Robert Arp at:
robertarp...@gmail.com, by Nov. 1, 2009
(1)     A short, no more than 100 word abstract of a chapter you would
like to write for the book. In the abstract, you could simply say
something like, “In this paper I will argue X. First, I will do A…
Then, I will do B…  Finally, I will do C…”
(2)     A short CV that has your contact info (email, phone),
affiliation,
and a few publications, if you have any.
Again, send these two things to:        Robert Arp at:
robertarp...@gmail.com, by Nov. 1, 2009


Here are possible topics, but any related topic will be considered:
LOGIC
•       Fallacious Reasoning Utilized by Lee’s Characters
•       Feminist Logic and Sense Thinking vs. Sensible Thinking
•       One Last Ride and the Logic the Gambler Utilizes
METAPHYSICS
•       Eastern Philosophical Themes in Ang Lee’s Work
•       The Place of God in Lee’s Work
•       Taking Woodstock, Inadvertent Actions, and Fate/Determinism
•       Brokeback Mountain, Homosexuality, and Personhood
•       Se, Jie or Eat Drink, Man Woman and Philosophies of Love
•       Hulk, Personal Identity, and Identity over Time
•       The Ice Storm and the Distinction between Psychopathology and
a
Healthy Personality
•       Sense, Sensibility, and the Definition of Conscious States
•       The Wedding Banquet, Humor, and Cartharsis in the Human Psyche
EPISTEMOLOGY
•       Taking Woodstock’s Historical Accuracy, Conflicting Testimony,
and
Justification for Claims
•       Bruce Banner, Hulk, Sense, and Reference
•       Feminist Epistemology and “Sense-ing” Perception vs.
“Sensible” Perception
•       Perceived Alienation in Lee’s Films
•       Perceiver, Perception, and Perceived in Lee’s Work
ETHICS
•       Brokeback Mountain and the Ethics of Homosexuality
•       The Hands of Shang-Chi, Virtue Ethics, and Parental Role
Models
•       The Ice Storm, Free Love, and the Ethics of Sex
•       Taking Woodstock, and a Comparison of the Ethics of the 50s
and the
60s in the US
•       Film as a Crucial Element in Telling Morality Tales
•       Hulk, and “If Science Can Do It, Then Science Ought To Do It”
•       Hulk, Supervillains, and the Idea that Absolute Power Corrupts
Absolutely
•       Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Character, and Virtue Ethics
•       One Last Ride and Utilitarian Reasons for Gambling
•       Utilitarian vs. Deontological Approaches in Lee’s Work
POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY
•       Brokeback Mountain and Gay Rights
•       Film as an Essential medium for Public Discussion
•       Hulk and the Obsession with Superheroes
•       Ride with the Devil and the History of Slavery
•       Ride with the Devil and the Philosophical Justifications for
the US Civil War
•       The Ice Storm and the Political Philosophy of Early 70s US


http://groups.google.com/group/philosophy-updates/browse_thread/thread/ff952b25b2744993?pli=1[/url (http://groups.google.com/group/philosophy-updates/browse_thread/thread/ff952b25b2744993?pli=1)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on October 22, 2009, 06:33:04 AM
Is whoever writes the scripts for the medical series "House" a Brokie?

It certainly seems likely:

This weeks episode shown on Sky 1 in the UK:

Dr House: I quit.

Dr Foreman: You can't quit.

Dr House: Aren't you confusing me with Jake Gyllenhaal?
.............................................................................

That certainly sounds like a real Brokie comment to me :D :D :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on October 23, 2009, 10:58:05 AM
Spaces of Desire: Liminality and Abjection in Brokeback Mountain

by Fran Pheasant-Kelly
full article...

http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22 (http://www.jgcinema.org/pages/view.php?cat=articoli_dossier&id=374&id_film=164&id_dossier=22)
A  few thought-provoking thoughts therefrom --

"~Since this film centres on two ranch hands and is partly set in the wilderness, critical analysis inevitably tends to consider its relationship to the Western genre (Kitses, 2007; Spohrer, 2009). ~ "  Huh.  And, for those who don't believe her, she provides references.

"~ In Revolution in Poetic Language (1984), she explains that the maternal world, which she refers to as the semiotic chora~"  Damn!  I knew I should a stuck around till I was a sophomore, sos I could understand stuff like that.

Thank God for modern  literature departments, and those who live in them.  How much poorer our lives would be without them!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on October 25, 2009, 08:07:46 AM
happy and heartbreaking...best of


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0&feature=related)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marz on October 25, 2009, 08:29:16 AM
thanks for posting it!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on October 25, 2009, 09:25:13 AM
i can't watch it without crying, but it's so good...and i like the way she uses the original soundtrack, and doesn't rry to match it up with more modern crap...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 06, 2009, 02:36:50 PM
The 100 Best Films of the Decade

Art house or Blockbuster? Juno or Jason Bourne? Is The Bourne Supremacy really better than Brokeback Mountain? And if Finding Nemo made it, what the hell happened to Shrek? Tell us where we got it wrong, or right, and post your alternative lists below

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6902642.ece (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article6902642.ece)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Rosewood on November 18, 2009, 01:00:19 PM
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/the-most-important-films-of-the-decade/#comment-158795

Where is the mention of BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN in all this? Not a word about Ang Lee?
What on earth is this guy writing about? It can't be about the Best Films of the Decade if he failed to
include BBM. Ergo the article is jibberish.
So why did I include it?
Simply because I wanted you guys to see it and perhaps post a comment or two or three on
the NY Times website, as I have.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on November 21, 2009, 05:55:00 PM
Do you know what I feel like posting here?    Today I watched a brilliant film. It was about two young men, who against all odds found one another and fell passionately in love with each other. Everything was against them right from the start. People ,geography and promises made to others. But love endured and after a break of four years they met again and the spark was still there. Many years passed without the dreams of one of them ever coming to fruition and the other one totally lost in life. What solved the problem was one of them had got killed. Maybe accident maybe not.  The remaining man went to the others ranch to offer condolences..but was not very well received by one member of the family. He was offered the chance to go and see his "friends room. There he found hidden, two shirts,interlocked inside each other. The shirt hidden inside the blue shirt was one the visiting man thought he had lost years ago. Neither of the men realised or even admitted what they had felt for each other..just called it   "this thing"...but at that moment ...in that small bare room... it was given a name....LOVE.

This is how I view "Brokeback Mountain".  May be too simplistic but some times I feel all the beauty is being stripped away. I understand that the forum is so we can get beneath the skin of BBM and try to understand it a little better. But some times I have to step back and just "see" the film and its story.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on November 21, 2009, 06:20:39 PM
BTW, the movie's on Bravo right now.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on November 21, 2009, 06:38:25 PM
Thanks friztkep. But aready have it recorded and "kept" so I can view it at anytime. Also have the DVD.  But BBM is not showing on Bravo in UK tonight. I've checked !!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on November 21, 2009, 06:41:11 PM
Do you know what I feel like posting here?    Today I watched a brilliant film. It was about two young men, who against all odds found one another and fell passionately in love with each other. Everything was against them right from the start. People ,geography and promises made to others. But love endured and after a break of four years they met again and the spark was still there. Many years passed without the dreams of one of them ever coming to fruition and the other one totally lost in life. What solved the problem was one of them had got killed. Maybe accident maybe not.  The remaining man went to the others ranch to offer condolences..but was not very well received by one member of the family. He was offered the chance to go and see his "friends room. There he found hidden, two shirts,interlocked inside each other. The shirt hidden inside the blue shirt was one the visiting man thought he had lost years ago. Neither of the men realised or even admitted what they had felt for each other..just called it   "this thing"...but at that moment ...in that small bare room... it was given a name....LOVE.

This is how I view "Brokeback Mountain".  May be too simplistic but some times I feel all the beauty is being stripped away. I understand that the forum is so we can get beneath the skin of BBM and try to understand it a little better. But some times I have to step back and just "see" the film and its story.
That was beautiful, Sue.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on November 21, 2009, 06:50:01 PM
Thanks Donna. Just needed to say it. xx
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on November 22, 2009, 09:40:13 AM
And it needed saying. Thank you Sue.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Nikki on November 22, 2009, 09:53:39 AM
That was beautiful, Sue.
 Sue, you cut to the heart of the story, and said what it all comes down to without over analyzing: love.  Thanks for that.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on November 22, 2009, 02:07:14 PM
Do you know what I feel like posting here?    Today I watched a brilliant film. It was about two young men, who against all odds found one another and fell passionately in love with each other. Everything was against them right from the start. People ,geography and promises made to others. But love endured and after a break of four years they met again and the spark was still there. Many years passed without the dreams of one of them ever coming to fruition and the other one totally lost in life. What solved the problem was one of them had got killed. Maybe accident maybe not.  The remaining man went to the others ranch to offer condolences..but was not very well received by one member of the family. He was offered the chance to go and see his "friends room. There he found hidden, two shirts,interlocked inside each other. The shirt hidden inside the blue shirt was one the visiting man thought he had lost years ago. Neither of the men realised or even admitted what they had felt for each other..just called it   "this thing"...but at that moment ...in that small bare room... it was given a name....LOVE.

You really should post that on the website Rosewood referred to. It is very well stated.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BBM LOVER on November 26, 2009, 08:40:41 PM
thankx sue that was very nice way to look at it. actually the movie itself in terms of execution is so strong that you always want to see it again and again. All I knw is the true world inside of me is as it is in BBM. When in the very first scene when th mountains are shown at dusk and in the back ground the music starts and  as soon as my ear gets the very first pull of the string  that takes me to a different world which is my world which is much of me. This life in the end of the day is so weird I even forget that its just movie not even some real piece of history because I don't believe it or my mind cannot still accept that BBM world doesnot exist in real. ahhhhhhhhhhhhh I don't what have i been typing pardon me please if I,vie said anyfin inappropriate.

All would say is Love is still out there in our hearts and we got it from BBM

God bless u all
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on December 20, 2009, 01:31:11 AM
http://feeds.wired.com/~r/wired/index/~3/8976oZCUcUs/

The complaint calls that the Brokeback Mountain factor
Title: A Small Christmas present
Post by: foreverinawe on December 20, 2009, 08:44:46 AM
I've put this on several threads because I wanted to give it to all Brokies for Christmas, but I can't seem to find one place that gets everyone. Hope you find it here if nowhere else...

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38359.msg1741466#msg1741466 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38359.msg1741466#msg1741466)

~~~fia
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on December 20, 2009, 04:02:36 PM
Foreverinawe. Great Video. If only that could have happened. If only....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on December 21, 2009, 08:30:59 AM
The Eagles' song "Desperado" reminds me of Ennis.  The mood more than the words, though the words relate to him, too.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: deblibdir on December 21, 2009, 04:17:56 PM
Hi everyone,

I wasn't sure where to post this or if it's been mentioned, but a photo of Ennis & Jack were in a photo collage on the LA Times front page of the Calendar section on Sunday for Kenneth Turan's ( who was on the Gene Autry Museum panel two weeks ago) best pic. of films or TV for the decade. They were both leaning against a truck, so I don't think it's an actual shot from the film, but it was very cool to see them make the list for the decade.

Deb
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: inwooder on December 21, 2009, 07:26:00 PM
Hey Brokies, I need help with something I saw in the movie. When Jack first comes to visit Ennis, there is a red/white/blue plaid jacket hanging up in the hallway of E's & A's apartment. At the end, its hanging up in JAck's closet. Am I crazy? Does that mean something? Or just that no one paid attention when "wardrobing" the sets? I can't imagine it pasted Ang Lee's notice so I thought it must mean something.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 21, 2009, 07:38:05 PM
Are you sure they are the same jackets? Or just similar color & style?

I'm looking at pics of both shots and they look like different jackets to me.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 21, 2009, 07:58:16 PM
Even if the jackets are different, they are similar.

I don't think it was a mistake.

Closets are in several scenes in the film for good reason, and I doubt that anything in those closets would be an accident.

Marit Allen was very aware of the costuming and what the clothes represented.

This is from an L.A. Times article from Jan 2006:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Everything worn by cowboys and ranchers has a meaning and a cultural reference," says Allen. "It would be very easy for an outsider unfamiliar with the code to make a mistake. For instance, cowboys wear Wrangler jeans [they're much tighter] and ranchers wear looser Levi's. Even the shape and heel height on a cowboy boot tells a tale. So does the height, color, brim and shape of a hat, which also varies from state to state. For instance, Jack's broader Texas hat is different than the one Ennis wears in Wyoming. And all of this is unspoken but rigorously observed."

--------------------------------------------------------
full article here:

http://blog.zap2it.com/thedishrag/2006/01/brokeback-cloth.html
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 21, 2009, 08:03:39 PM
Hey Brokies, I need help with something I saw in the movie. When Jack first comes to visit Ennis, there is a red/white/blue plaid jacket hanging up in the hallway of E's & A's apartment. At the end, its hanging up in JAck's closet. Am I crazy? Does that mean something? Or just that no one paid attention when "wardrobing" the sets? I can't imagine it pasted Ang Lee's notice so I thought it must mean something.

No you're not crazy. You're very observant.

I don't remember anyone mentioning the 2 jackets before. I think it's definitely a mirrored scene.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on December 22, 2009, 10:00:44 AM
My goodness and silly me, I thought after four years we'd noticed everything there is to be noticed.  This is a good one.

I liked to think that sometimes Jack would go to sleep wearing Ennis's shirt.  Yes, it's slightly icky to wear a shirt stained w/ someone else's blood, but being asleep in your lover's embrace trumps that.  I bet Jack didn't wash it as long as it smelled of Ennis.

And the matching jacket goes nicely with that image.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on December 25, 2009, 10:19:11 AM
Even if the jackets are different, they are similar.

I don't think it was a mistake.

Closets are in several scenes in the film for good reason, and I doubt that anything in those closets would be an accident.

Marit Allen was very aware of the costuming and what the clothes represented.

This is from an L.A. Times article from Jan 2006:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Everything worn by cowboys and ranchers has a meaning and a cultural reference," says Allen. "It would be very easy for an outsider unfamiliar with the code to make a mistake. For instance, cowboys wear Wrangler jeans [they're much tighter] and ranchers wear looser Levi's. Even the shape and heel height on a cowboy boot tells a tale. So does the height, color, brim and shape of a hat, which also varies from state to state. For instance, Jack's broader Texas hat is different than the one Ennis wears in Wyoming. And all of this is unspoken but rigorously observed."

--------------------------------------------------------
full article here:

http://blog.zap2it.com/thedishrag/2006/01/brokeback-cloth.html

That's a most interesting article John!

I haven't read it before.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: inwooder on December 25, 2009, 04:10:35 PM
Are you sure they are the same jackets? Or just similar color & style?

I'm looking at pics of both shots and they look like different jackets to me.


I guess I'll have to watch it again and see. I thought they were very smiliar and maybe the same. Can you post the pics you are looking at?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: inwooder on December 25, 2009, 04:37:35 PM
ok, looked at the pics as well, they are not the same but very similar. So did Ang put them there as forshadowing of the shirts?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 26, 2009, 05:47:25 PM
ok, looked at the pics as well, they are not the same but very similar. So did Ang put them there as forshadowing of the shirts?

I haven't found anything that tells me about these specific shots. I can only try to guess by reading what is out there.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marit Allen: Ang Lee understands characters' emotions completely. Nothing escapes his notice, and he uses every piece of the frame to tell his story.

Michael Costigan: Marit Allen has worked with Ang [before], and had a great time finding what these people would have been wearing and how they would look in Wyoming and Texas then.


Marit Allen: I always work with the actors; we find things together. We used earth tones almost entirely for Ennis. Heath was deeply involved with his character. He worked with his clothes, using everything he wears to convey Ennis' repression - the jackets, done up; the cowboy hats, to hide behind

Jake Gyllenhaal: This is the first time I've ever played a character spanning a long period of time. Ang said, it's not only the makeup and the wardrobe but also the voice and the movement and the behaviour - everything combined into one. He made me feel empowered.

Diana Ossana: When Marit showed me photographs of Heath and Jake in wardrobe, they looked so real, so much like the characters we had envisioned, that I had to go outside and compose myself. I was that moved

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brokeback Mountain - Production notes

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/b/images/brokeback-mountain-production-notes.rtf (http://thecia.com.au/reviews/b/images/brokeback-mountain-production-notes.rtf)



So yes I think Ang Lee and Marit Allen took the wardrobe very seriously and nothing was an accident.

 It was a subtle foreshadowing.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: john john on December 27, 2009, 02:41:09 PM
Hi Brokies!

Just thought I'd stop by and tell you that Brokeback Mountain made the list of the  ten best movies of the decade by two respected film critcs here in Montreal. It's the very first on one list and the fifth on the other.

To be expected of course...!!!!

Hugs

JJ 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 27, 2009, 02:44:00 PM
Hello JohnJohn!  It's good to see ya, and thanks for the info!!
Title: Wind River Range and Basin, Wyoming
Post by: foreverinawe on December 30, 2009, 10:19:03 AM
The recent posts on TOTW concerning sites visited by Ennis and Jack really interested me, since I've been an inveterate traveler all my life. In particular, the Wind River Mountain Range intrigued me, and I began searching the Internet for whatever information I could find.

Holy Mackerel, I found a bunch!  I should add that once I got into online searching, it quickly led to Google Earth and Google Maps.  I also own a program called Topo USA which provides exquisite detailing of topography, trails, creeks, streams, etc.

Many of the ranges Annie mentioned can be seen here; a few are a bit outside the field shown (the Gallatins are mostly in Montana, but spill south a  little way into Yellowstone Natl Park.)

(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv93/tinytruck/WyomingBasinsandUpliftsA.jpg)

Google Maps, in particular, offers several different presentations; one may view roads, or terrain, or satellite views, or combinations. What's more, it's loaded with on-site photographs of the local scenery, pictures taken and uploaded by ordinary people, locals and visitors alike. There are dozens of photos of Riverton, the Wind River Basin (Riverton is in the WRB) and the Wind River Range.

Here is an image from Google Maps, showing the satellite image of the Wind River Basin, the surrounding gorgeous mountain ranges, the rivers, roads and towns.  (If you need it bigger, tap Ctrl + several times.)

(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv93/tinytruck/GoogleMapsWindRiverBasinB.jpg)

For Brokies, you'll discover that Dubois (where they ate after getting paid by Aguirre) is about 75 miles from Riverton, both in the Wind River basin, both on the same highway (US26). The southwest side of the basin is formed by the Wind River Range, the opposite side by the Washakie Range and Owl Creek mountains. The basin is quite narrow at Dubois. Our beloved, fictional mountain could be on either side of the basin; one only has to go a few miles from Dubois to get into the big mountains.
 
Maybe I'm not much of a cartographer, but I did not realize that Wind River Basin is only 55 miles from the iconic Grand Tetons; just drive west from Dubois on US26 and you run right into it. (Ennis told Junior he thought he'd be on a roundup at the Tetons on her wedding date, but he likely meant the Teton National Forest, not the Grand Teton Natl Park.)

It was while I was exploring the Gros Ventre (pronounced GROW-van) range that I followed a link to this site:

http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html (http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html)

What a wonderful description of Wyoming, from pioneers to present, told with old and new photos, and a wry and loving perspective written by a Wyomian named G. B. Dobson. I spent a half hour reading it, didn't even get half way. Among other things it talks about the Wind River Basin, but it spans two centuries of people and millions of years of geology. I can't wait to finish it.

(I sincerely recommend a quiet evening alone, in front of your computer, accompanied by a glass of your favorite wine, reading this beautiful retrospective. It may inspire you to visit Wyoming; on the other hand, it may make a visit unnecessary, since you will have come to know it so well a visit would be superfluous.)

I am humbled that such beauty is delivered to me free, in my own house, at my demand. And in my case, it was sparked by the magnificent story written by Annie Proulx.

With all of the shortcomings of mankind, we still have amazing abilities and the potential for love and hope. With a lump in my throat, I am forever in awe.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on December 30, 2009, 10:21:30 AM
Or you can always backpack the CDT  ::)

http://www.cdtrail.org/page.php
Title: Re: Wind River Range and Basin, Wyoming
Post by: Buffymon on January 13, 2010, 03:06:11 PM
The recent posts on TOTW concerning sites visited by Ennis and Jack really interested me, since I've been an inveterate traveler all my life. In particular, the Wind River Mountain Range intrigued me, and I began searching the Internet for whatever information I could find.

Holy Mackerel, I found a bunch!  I should add that once I got into online searching, it quickly led to Google Earth and Google Maps.  I also own a program called Topo USA which provides exquisite detailing of topography, trails, creeks, streams, etc.

Many of the ranges Annie mentioned can be seen here; a few are a bit outside the field shown (the Gallatins are mostly in Montana, but spill south a  little way into Yellowstone Natl Park.)

(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv93/tinytruck/WyomingBasinsandUpliftsA.jpg)

Google Maps, in particular, offers several different presentations; one may view roads, or terrain, or satellite views, or combinations. What's more, it's loaded with on-site photographs of the local scenery, pictures taken and uploaded by ordinary people, locals and visitors alike. There are dozens of photos of Riverton, the Wind River Basin (Riverton is in the WRB) and the Wind River Range.

Here is an image from Google Maps, showing the satellite image of the Wind River Basin, the surrounding gorgeous mountain ranges, the rivers, roads and towns.  (If you need it bigger, tap Ctrl + several times.)

(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv93/tinytruck/GoogleMapsWindRiverBasinB.jpg)

For Brokies, you'll discover that Dubois (where they ate after getting paid by Aguirre) is about 75 miles from Riverton, both in the Wind River basin, both on the same highway (US26). The southwest side of the basin is formed by the Wind River Range, the opposite side by the Washakie Range and Owl Creek mountains. The basin is quite narrow at Dubois. Our beloved, fictional mountain could be on either side of the basin; one only has to go a few miles from Dubois to get into the big mountains.
 
Maybe I'm not much of a cartographer, but I did not realize that Wind River Basin is only 55 miles from the iconic Grand Tetons; just drive west from Dubois on US26 and you run right into it. (Ennis told Junior he thought he'd be on a roundup at the Tetons on her wedding date, but he likely meant the Teton National Forest, not the Grand Teton Natl Park.)

It was while I was exploring the Gros Ventre (pronounced GROW-van) range that I followed a link to this site:

http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html (http://www.wyomingtalesandtrails.com/index.html)

What a wonderful description of Wyoming, from pioneers to present, told with old and new photos, and a wry and loving perspective written by a Wyomian named G. B. Dobson. I spent a half hour reading it, didn't even get half way. Among other things it talks about the Wind River Basin, but it spans two centuries of people and millions of years of geology. I can't wait to finish it.

(I sincerely recommend a quiet evening alone, in front of your computer, accompanied by a glass of your favorite wine, reading this beautiful retrospective. It may inspire you to visit Wyoming; on the other hand, it may make a visit unnecessary, since you will have come to know it so well a visit would be superfluous.)

I am humbled that such beauty is delivered to me free, in my own house, at my demand. And in my case, it was sparked by the magnificent story written by Annie Proulx.

With all of the shortcomings of mankind, we still have amazing abilities and the potential for love and hope. With a lump in my throat, I am forever in awe.

thank you for that information Very helpful!
I´ve been able to locate every mountain range except for two; the Freezeouts and the Ferrises. I´m not sure if they exist at all. Does anyone knoe?
Title: Re: Wind River Range and Basin, Wyoming
Post by: foreverinawe on January 14, 2010, 06:37:29 AM
thank you for that information Very helpful!
I´ve been able to locate every mountain range except for two; the Freezeouts and the Ferrises. I´m not sure if they exist at all. Does anyone knoe?
Hi Monika,

I know!

(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv93/tinytruck/FerrisFreezeoutsA.jpg)

Here's what I found about the Ferrises:

A trail-less, virtually unknown mountain range in the Ferris Mountains Wilderness Study Area, located approximately 45 miles north of Rawlins, near a high desert pass and small settlement called Muddy Gap. [About 75 miles southeast of Riverton.] The area offers unpopulated hiking; unknown deep canyons; high mountain ridges and peaks and all of it is untrailed.

Apparently the Freezeouts are much smaller and not worth mentioning, except that they virtually define "out in the middle a nowhere."

FWIW, I am hot on the trail of Lightning Flat. As soon as I confirm a longitude, I think I will have it positively located. Everyone knows "about where it is," but I have discovered it plotted on two old legal plats. Stay tuned.

~~~fia








Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on January 21, 2010, 11:37:40 AM
“ACCORDING TO THEIR WILLS AND PLEASURES”: THE SEXUAL STEREOTYPING
OF MORMON MEN IN AMERICAN FILM AND TELEVISION

Travis Sutton, B.A.
Thesis Prepared for the Degree of
MASTER OF ARTS
UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS
May 2009

------------------------------------------------------------

Mormons and their views on sexuality received national attention during the
theatrical release of Brokeback Mountain (2005), a critically-acclaimed film about two
cowboys who maintain a closeted homosexual relationship throughout their lives. The
Jordan Commons, a popular megaplex south of Salt Lake City, Utah, scheduled showings
for the gay-themed film; however, hours before the first showing of Brokeback Mountain,
Larry H. Miller, a prominent Latter-day Saint and owner of the megaplex, publicly
refused his support for the film by canceling the scheduled screenings. His decision
played out as controversial since Hostel (2005) and The Producers (2005) remained open
the same day for exhibition at Miller’s megaplex. Miller’s decision appeared, to some, to
communicate that the representation of a monstrous homosexual man performing
gruesome human torture in Hostel was to be excused over the serious examination of
male sexuality found in Brokeback Mountain, an examination that reached beyond the
stereotypical effeminate gay men on display for audience laughter in The Producers.
Miller, one Mormon man with heavy corporate power and influence in the Utah
community, acted upon a value judgment that appeared to communicate that he preferred
to mock or fear homosexual relationships rather than to seriously consider the reality of
such relationships and the cultural climate that pressures such relationships to remain in
the closet.

As can be interpreted from his decision, Miller is not comfortable with the way
Brokeback Mountain presents male sexuality and American masculinity as having a
potential for malleability, unpredictability, and nonconformity. Although Brokeback
Mountain is commonly labeled as a “gay cowboy” movie, some critics resist and
challenge the labeling of the main characters as “gay” because the two male characters do
not self-identify as “gay” and their sexual activity within the narrative is predominantly
heterosexual. In his reception study of the film, Harry Benshoff describes Brokeback
Mountain as “an exemplary queer film, exploring diverse sexualities that cannot be easily
labeled or described” (“Brokering Brokeback Mountain”). Benshoff’s use of the word
“queer” to describe this particular film is significant because the main characters in the
film challenge other popular labels such as “gay” and “straight.” The term “queer”
recognizes a peculiarity that transcends known identity categories. Benshoff’s study
acknowledges that “the film’s reception affirms, denies, and/or otherwise complicates the
social constructions and popular understandings of male (homo)sexual desire”
(“Brokering Brokeback Mountain”). Therefore, Benshoff’s study reveals that an inability
for audiences to neatly categorize the two main characters in Brokeback Mountain within
such binary social models as gay/straight or masculine/feminine potentially generates
anxiety for both conservative and liberal communities who may respond to the film.
Benshoff also identifies several theater owners in Texas who, like Miller, chose not to
exhibit Brokeback Mountain at their particular venue, including one theater in Childress,
Texas, where a portion of the story of Brokeback Mountain takes place. For social
conservative Larry H. Miller, his decision to cancel the scheduled screenings of the film
reached a level of publicity to the extent that Heath Ledger, a star of the film, commented
in an Australian newspaper about the “Mormons in Utah” and “their problem” with
regarding the film as controversial (“Ledger Blasts”).

Ultimately, Miller’s choice and its subsequent news coverage reveal the
complexities behind such issues as representation and advocacy, values and tolerance,
and Mormons and sexuality. This project will examine such complexities and their
relationships to social systems of power; therefore, this project will examine Mormon
representation in film and television and interpret what such representations communicate
about Mormons, sexuality, values, tolerance, and their interplay with cultural power
systems. As these chapters will examine, there is a curious negotiation in the way
cultural texts, specifically movies and television shows, present Mormons and their
sexuality; that is, texts produced for Mormon audiences generally present a specific,
idealized, and purposeful (hetero)sexuality, and this representation opposes texts that are
produced for non-Mormon audiences that present Mormons and their sexuality as queer,
monstrous, and/or self-destructive. Some cultural theorists explain “that since queer is a
positionality [… it] can be taken up by anyone who feels marginalized as a result of their
sexual practices” (Sullivan 44). In the nineteenth century, Mormons were marginalized
for their queer sexual practice of marrying multiple partners. Since that time, the
development of film and television has allowed for the display of Mormon characters,
and the uniqueness of these characters is in many ways attached to their approach to
sexuality. Accordingly, sexuality in the Mormon experience remains in a position of
queerness as perceived by Western culture.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PDF file, 192 pages

full article here:

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc9825/m1/1/high_res_d/ (http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc9825/m1/1/high_res_d/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on January 21, 2010, 06:02:12 PM
I find the discussion about the nature of sexuality here interesting.
I am not sure it is a subject it is possible to be too objective about whilst there is still so much shame and opprobrium attached to being homosexual.
There is not a level playing field from which to make observations.
Ennis married and had sex with women to prove to himself and to society that he wasn't "queer," because it wasn't acceptable at that time and in that place to be "queer."
How many real people does this apply to?
When being homosexual carries no stigma then it will be possible to observe and understand just how fluid sexuality really is and how much bisexual behaviour is the result of societal pressures.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on January 21, 2010, 06:50:14 PM
Thanks, John, I downloaded the thesis because I want to read it at leisure sometime.

(I did my Master's thesis on the attitude of the Government of Louisiana toward Acadian French from early statehood to the election of Edwin Edwards, the first governor of Cajun ancestry, as governor. I expect this should be livelier!)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on February 04, 2010, 11:07:04 AM
Read and weep: Our Top 10 movie tearjerkers

  By Kat Angus and Miranda Furtado, Canwest News Service

Brokeback Mountain (2005) — In 1963, ranch hand Ennis (Heath Ledger) and cowboy Jack (Jake Gyllenhaal) spend an isolated summer together, herding sheep in Wyoming. They also discover that their feelings for each other are more than platonic, and though they spend the rest of their lives trying to ignore their love, Jack and Ennis are drawn back together again and again. When Jack is killed by a mob of gay-bashers, Ennis realizes that he's spent his whole life ignoring who he is, and vows not to waste his remaining years keeping his loved ones at arm's length.

http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Read+weep+movie+tearjerkers/2522233/story.html (http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/Read+weep+movie+tearjerkers/2522233/story.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on February 08, 2010, 09:19:11 AM
Yesterday I saw Gone with the Wind at the Castro Theatre.  (They spell it "re," which I do only under duress.)

When Ashley leaves his home in Atlanta at Christmas 1863, Scarlett watches him through the window walk through the front gate and into the fog.  When I saw that, I remembered the almost-final scene where Rhett leaves Scarlett and walks off into the fog.  I was wondering if he also went through the front gate.  I should have remembered that, at the Butlers' house, the front gate was much further away from the front door than it was at the Wilkeses' house, and so couldn't be in the shot.  (How's that for correct use of apostrophes?)

And I wondered if Victor Fleming was having an Ang Lee moment, and making those two departures as similar to each other as he could.

Similiarities:

-- the man Scarlett loves is leaving (though she only thinks she loves Ashley)
-- he's going off into the fog

Differences:

-- gate v. no gate
-- Scarlett watches Ashley through the window, and watches Rhett through the open front door

It's not easy to fiddle w/ the Butlers' front gate.  But Scarlett could have watched Ashley through the door instead of the window.

Maybe we're all starting to watch movies w/ what we fancy is Ang Lee's eye.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on February 08, 2010, 12:25:58 PM
Theatre................. Mark...........  from old French.  I don't know, all this phonetic spelling you Americans favour.......................................... :D :D :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on February 08, 2010, 12:56:04 PM
 But Scarlett could have watched Ashley through the door instead of the window.
Not really.
Symbolically speaking, Ashley had to "close the door" on any possibility of a relationship with Scarlett leaving
her with only a "window" of opportunity to secure his affections.
"After the war, Ashley, after the war". 

Whereas, in the final scene it is symbolically important for
the "door" to a future for Scarlett and Rhett be left open.

Quote
Maybe we're all starting to watch movies w/ what we fancy is Ang Lee's eye.

I fear Victor Fleming would be tempted to strangle Ang Lee.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on February 08, 2010, 01:42:26 PM
Theatre................. Mark...........  from old French.  I don't know, all this phonetic spelling you Americans favour.......................................... :D :D :D

well -- we know that.  :)

but it is viewed as an affectation.  especially if an editor has ever gone through an entire manuscript and made a person change the spelling.

This is a true story, it didn't happen to me, but I heed the warning.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on February 08, 2010, 02:18:32 PM
An affectation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) Not here its not.

I spend all day trying to get students to write UK English and not US English. Most computers seem to revert to this as a default position at the drop of a hat and then "correct" their spelling to US standard, which here is just regarded as wrong.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on February 08, 2010, 08:27:06 PM
Hi Marc:  Since my all-time co-favorite films are GWTW & Lawrence of Arabia (pre-BBM of course), I'll try to add my thoughts.  I've have read everything and seen then so many times I've lost count. 

Remember when Scarlett wakes up screaming on her honeymoon and tells Rhett the recurrent dream she always has - walking through fog and finding nothing?  Towards the end of the film, she leaves the Wilkes' home (after Melanie's death), walking and running through dense fog and runs to her home, all the while calling for Rhett.  She finds him upstairs.  It is RHETT she has been seeking in her dreams at the end of the fog; the person she has always, always loved.  But he's leaving.  He walks out the front door of the Butler home into dense fog - fog again.  Too late, just too late.  (Sound familiar)??

Mr. Fleming was a very fine director, one of the many, many fine directors taken for granted in his day.  And perhaps he did have an Ang Lee moment...

Strange - GWTW and BBM are such sad love stories (very sad ones) that can and never will be surpassed. 
And I have always thought to myself they had a lot in common in emotions.  I'm glad to read all of the comments!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on February 14, 2010, 12:31:48 AM
http://www.eagletribune.com/pulife/local_story_044160048.html?keyword=topstory

"Reel love: 10 films to watch on Valentine's Day"

"4. "Brokeback Mountain" — It doesn't matter what the gender of the two people
falling in love is, all that matters is that they are in love."

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on February 14, 2010, 01:38:30 AM
If the gender doesn't matter, why do they mention it?  And why don't they mention it for the other films? 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on February 23, 2010, 09:45:49 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=9922410

"Wyoming Lawmakers Eye 'Cowboy Ethics' Code"

"...and saying more by talking less."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on February 25, 2010, 04:44:33 PM
Originally posted by Bay City John


I (BCJ) found this in the Vancouver Sun today.

I guess the Sun hasn't heard of this forum  ;D


Academy Awards buzz: Great flicks that earned Oscar's nod, then snub



Quote
In the past 20 to 30 years or so of nominations for best picture, Oscar's usual bread and butter are sumptuous, well-made epics (Ghandi, The Godfather, Amadeus, The Last Emperor, The Right Stuff), well-made genre flicks (Silence of the Lambs, The Fugitive, Fatal Attraction), and cute indie films (Juno, Little Miss Sunshine). Even the films that did break cinematic ground, such as Unforgiven, Brokeback Mountain or Goodfellas, were hardly the type that kept you up at night trying to unravel. But, every now and then, the rare oddball did break through. Like A Serious Man, these were films that seemed to owe nothing to the Oscar-baiting norm of their fellow nominees.

full article:

http://tinyurl.com/ye4hcp4 (http://tinyurl.com/ye4hcp4)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on February 25, 2010, 08:19:07 PM
Hello --

Just read in one of the forums (can't remember which one, unfortunately) that a recent article printed in the Vancouver Sun stated that, after Jack's death and at the end of BBM, "Ennis VOWS that he'll never again keep his loved ones at arm's length". !?!   ???

I can't remember the author of this article, but this is way off track.  Ennis never vowed anything.  He is so devastated by Jack's murder and the loss of Jack's love, director Ang Lee shows the bleakness and emptiness of his prior/present/future lousy "life" from that trailer window.  It is so so sad...  :'(

Can't believe that a columnist would write such a statement!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on February 25, 2010, 08:21:36 PM
I guess that is his interpretation of "Jack, I swear..."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on February 26, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
Hi, Ellen.  Yes, I thought of that too. 

I'm influenced by the thought that if I said what Ennis said with all those tears in his eyes, ("Jack, I swear"), it means to me as something in the line of "If I/we could go back all those years, everything would be different..." regarding their relationship, being together, etc.  And I thought this was what Ennis may have been feeling in the diner scene after the last time being w/Jack.  Seriously thinking of how sad & miserable he was w/o Jack, how much they missed (even loved) each other, etc.   :(

But I have to say, Ellen, that I don't get the feeling (ever) of Ennis vowing he'd never keep loved ones at arms' length in future.  This just doesn't seem like Ennis.  

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on March 11, 2010, 04:03:20 PM
Bulga boy recognised at Academy Awards for movie technology

THE red carpet has been mothballed for another year, the flashes faded and the gold statues packed away, but Bulga is still celebrating its first Academy Award winner.

Martin Tlaskal and his company FilmLight were recognised at the Academy's Scientific and Technical Awards for pioneering post-production technology used in films from Brokeback Mountain to The Hangover.


http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/bulga-boy-recognised-at-academy-awards-for-movie-technology/1774214.aspx (http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/bulga-boy-recognised-at-academy-awards-for-movie-technology/1774214.aspx)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on March 25, 2010, 12:58:14 AM
Brokeback Mountain - Revision of the Western Genre or Homage to the Great West

By Rani Singh

The film Brokeback Mountain is constructed in such a way as to be considered both a revision of and an homage to the western genre. It incorporates traditional western motifs and iconography, and adheres to a common plot structure of the genre, but it also omits other traditions familiar to Western literature and cinema and introduces new concepts, making it refreshingly subversive as a Western film.

The Western genre has always been one that encompasses many other genres – romance, war, epics, melodrama, action and comedy. “Experiment seems always to have been varied and development dynamic, the pendulum swinging back and forth between opposing poles of emphasis on drama and history, plots and spectacle, romance and ‘realism’, seriousness and comedy” (Kitses, J. 1969, p.17). Given the flexibility of the genre it is no wonder Brokeback Mountain was able to so successfully introduce new ideas into its plot, while still being clearly recognisable as a Western.

The most obvious revision prominent in Brokeback Mountain is the introduction of homosexuality. The two main characters of the film, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, are gay lovers – a concept not commonly explored in Western texts. While some might argue that there has always been an underlying homoerotic element in Westerns, it is not something readily explored in Western literature or cinema, least of all made the central theme of such. Commonly the romantic interest of the hero is the glamorous femme fatale, desired for her feminine charm and sensuality. Brokeback Mountain subverts this concept by positioning another male as the hero’s love interest, but it is also problematic as it merely inserts Jack into the role of the female temptress, attaching all of the ideologies associated with femininity onto him. For instance, it is Jack who makes the first move when seducing Ennis, using his allure and sexuality to tempt Ennis when he calls him into the tent. He is worldly and uninhibited and leads Ennis down a risky path. On the other hand, Ennis is portrayed as the saint, being much more repressed and restrained by social standards. “You may be a sinner but I ain’t yet had the opportunity,” he says to Jack.  So while exploring the romance between the two men, Brokeback Mountain can be considered a critique of the Western genre, but at the same time could also be said to adhere to the motif of the femme fatale, depicting Jack Twist as the temptress to hero Ennis.



full article...

http://hubpages.com/hub/Brokeback-Mountain-revision-or-homage (http://hubpages.com/hub/Brokeback-Mountain-revision-or-homage)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: chapeaugris on March 25, 2010, 01:08:06 AM
Brokeback Mountain - Revision of the Western Genre or Homage to the Great West

By Rani Singh

The most obvious revision prominent in Brokeback Mountain is the introduction of homosexuality. The two main characters of the film, Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, are gay lovers – a concept not commonly explored in Western texts. While some might argue that there has always been an underlying homoerotic element in Westerns, it is not something readily explored in Western literature or cinema, least of all made the central theme of such. Commonly the romantic interest of the hero is the glamorous femme fatale, desired for her feminine charm and sensuality. Brokeback Mountain subverts this concept by positioning another male as the hero’s love interest, but it is also problematic as it merely inserts Jack into the role of the female temptress, attaching all of the ideologies associated with femininity onto him. For instance, it is Jack who makes the first move when seducing Ennis, using his allure and sexuality to tempt Ennis when he calls him into the tent. He is worldly and uninhibited and leads Ennis down a risky path. On the other hand, Ennis is portrayed as the saint, being much more repressed and restrained by social standards. “You may be a sinner but I ain’t yet had the opportunity,” he says to Jack.  So while exploring the romance between the two men, Brokeback Mountain can be considered a critique of the Western genre, but at the same time could also be said to adhere to the motif of the femme fatale, depicting Jack Twist as the temptress to hero Ennis.
You mean, "quit yer hammering and get in here!"  ::) ???
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on March 25, 2010, 02:47:49 AM
You mean, "quit yer hammering and get in here!"  ::) ???
Well, allure and sexuality by a male femme fatale might well be different in Wyoming.  We ought to remember that Lureen, as the seductive temptress said: "Whatcha waitin' for cowboy, a matin' call?"
  I propose that the heterosexual members of the forum attempt these phrases and report back to us whether any immediate results ensued. Their significant others might just be tired of the same-old same-old and be perched and ready for something different.  Volunteers?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 25, 2010, 04:40:08 AM
Very interesting piece. He or she, (Rani ? Maya, help us here), would be a good forum member with lots of intersting things to say. I am so glad that the author bought the whole paradise, Eden thing that I am always banging on about!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on March 25, 2010, 06:41:08 AM
Well, allure and sexuality by a male femme fatale might well be different in Wyoming.  We ought to remember that Lureen, as the seductive temptress said: "Whatcha waitin' for cowboy, a matin' call?"
  I propose that the heterosexual members of the forum attempt these phrases and report back to us whether any immediate results ensued. Their significant others might just be tired of the same-old same-old and be perched and ready for something different.  Volunteers?

I'll let you know how it goes, Tony  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on March 25, 2010, 02:12:08 PM
I'll let you know how it goes, Tony  :D
   I guess you're the only one with anthropological interests around here, Donna, so, it's all up to you!  Either phrase will do; pup tent on the bed optional.  No need for details  ::), just....can a Wyoming dialect be employed in a femme fatale manner, thus buttressing the article given by BCJ?  Good luck  :D!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on March 25, 2010, 07:24:12 PM
Who the hell is Rani Singh anyway?   ???  Is this column or his conclusions supposed to be gospel or something?   Like it's the final say on the beautiful film that is BBM??  No wonder I could never stand critics.  >:D   Haven't we had enough of sarcastic/rotten things said about BBM?
 
For heaven's sake, femme fatale, seducing, temptress Jack??  I've got to tell you - I don't like this guy or this column, not one bit.  >:D   This is certainly not the impression AP, Dianna and Larry give to their audience.  Nor the superb actors or director.
Perhaps I love Ennis & Jack too much to see their love for each other described in this way in a lousy  column.  This person puts the characters of Ennis and Jack in a bad light and that's certainly not the story.

I don't like it one bit.  Am I being too sensitive here, Baycityjohn?





Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on March 26, 2010, 05:08:47 AM
I don't know who he or she is either Kathy, but some of his / her views are interesting, even though there are some I disagree with.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on March 26, 2010, 06:01:34 AM
Who the hell is Rani Singh anyway?   ???  Is this column or his conclusions supposed to be gospel or something?   Like it's the final say on the beautiful film that is BBM??  No wonder I could never stand critics.  >:D   Haven't we had enough of sarcastic/rotten things said about BBM?
 
For heaven's sake, femme fatale, seducing, temptress Jack??  I've got to tell you - I don't like this guy or this column, not one bit.  >:D   This is certainly not the impression AP, Dianna and Larry give to their audience.  Nor the superb actors or director.
Perhaps I love Ennis & Jack too much to see their love for each other described in this way in a lousy  column.  This person puts the characters of Ennis and Jack in a bad light and that's certainly not the story.

I don't like it one bit.  Am I being too sensitive here, Baycityjohn?




No, no final says, Kathy.  John just presents articles he's seen, for interest/discussion. :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on March 26, 2010, 03:50:18 PM
 :)  Hi Cally  --

You're correct.  I know that's what BaycityJohn does too; I don't want anyone to think otherwise.   :)

I suppose I really took offense to the "tone" of that column; seems like he/she is drawing it all down like luring someone to sex or something, with words like "femme fatale", "temptress", "subverting of the western genre" (?) stuff, etc.  ???  Or suggesting the love Ennis & Jack always had for each other meant only one thing - sex.  This is not the ss or the film. 
And to picture Jack as the "temptress" and Ennis as the "hero"  ???  They're two young men practically cut  from the same cloth in their childhood!  On BBM, Jack wants to speak to Ennis right away; Ennis doesn't speak much 'til he gets closer & closer to Jack. 

BBM is a beautiful and tragic love story spanning many years; can't he/she even get that?  Ennis & Jack loved each other; and it effects their entire lives. 

Guess that person doesn't get it at all (my opinion, I know). 
(I wonder - did he/she even see it at all, like those ampas "members")?   >:(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on March 26, 2010, 06:06:50 PM

I don't like it one bit.  Am I being too sensitive here, Baycityjohn?


Not at all.

I just post articles as I find them, good or bad.

Never enough sensitivity, never enough.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on March 26, 2010, 06:26:53 PM
 :)  Hi John --

True.  Never enough sensitivity, never enough.   >:(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on March 30, 2010, 12:32:48 AM
This editorial is from Malaysia


THE BIG PICTURE:  Selective evils get the cut

Quote
ARIDUL ANWAR FARINORDIN has mixed feelings over the ruling concerning rempit scenes and those involving homosexuals in local films

WE all die in the end and whether we repent before we breathe our last is knowledge exclusive to the Higher Power. All we can do is to live life to the fullest, do good and pray that we are spared the wrath of our Creator when the time finally comes.


So it’s with mixed feelings that I view the recent ruling that rempit (illegal racing) scenes and those involving homosexuals are allowed only if the characters repent at the end of the film or meet a fate that will repel viewers from emulating them.



Quote
If that’s the case, we’re likely to see the dawn of a new cinematic era: The age of repentance. This would be so exciting — I can already tell how the story is going to end if it deals with any of the subjects mentioned. Why bother going to the cinema to see a local film? And why should we focus on the wrongs and not the rights — elements of love, compassion, kindness, forgiveness and humility in the films? Remember the late Yasmin Ahmad’s Muallaf? We kicked ourselves when Sharifah Amani Syed Yahya shaved her head to play her character but we overlooked the film’s central theme on love and forgiveness.


Muallaf is an example of a good film where noble intentions were lost in the flurry of overblown controversy. Rabun, Sepet and Gubra received the same fate, too, all because the moral police in our society felt displays of affection between a middle-aged couple, intercultural romance and love between two schoolchildren were just too much.


Paranoia also took the better of Brokeback Mountain, a love story between two men, which was given a no-go by some cinemas in the Midwest. The film by Ang Lee was never released in Malaysia, although I now wonder if it would receive the green light under the current board ruling.


After all, didn’t the cowboy Jack Twist (played by Jake Gyllenhaal) die a horrible death while his lover Ennis Del Mar (the late Heath Ledger) was left with such a horrible feeling of despair and loss? Surely, this isn’t something that viewers would want to “emulate”.

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/articles/20100329232729/Article/index_html (http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/articles/20100329232729/Article/index_html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sandy on March 30, 2010, 12:06:45 PM
BTW,

Rani is a woman's name; it means "queen."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on March 30, 2010, 12:30:04 PM
I would love to see a lavish Bollywood singing/dancing number, depicting Hell.  Really I would!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on March 30, 2010, 02:05:48 PM
Hi John - re the editorial from Malaysia:   ???    >:D
Glad that wasn't my birthplace.
kathy
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on April 22, 2010, 11:28:25 PM
Pulitzer-Prize-winning author attends awards banquet

Fans of the book-turned-movie “Brokeback Mountain” had several chances Thursday to meet the brains behind the story, Pulitzer-Prize-winning author Annie Proulx.

Proulx appeared at a public interview session in Hicks Undergraduate Library in the afternoon, then spoke at Purdue’s 79th annual Literary Awards banquet before giving a reading of her latest work at Fowler Hall. Proulx read from her memoir, “Bird Cloud,” a recollection of her travels and experiences growing up. At the interview she gave insight into her methods and thought processes as a writer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proulx read an hour’s worth of her memoir at Fowler Hall and answered questions from students afterward. She explained her reasoning behind making the protagonists of “Brokeback Mountain” cowboys.

“If you live in the West, you know the most revered occupation is the cowboy ... it is the symbol of refined masculinity,” Proulx said. “What a lot of readers don’t understand is the characters in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ – the story, not the movie – are not cowboys, they are wanna-be cowboys. Just because you wear a big hat and ride a horse, it does not make you a cowboy.”


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

full article:

http://purdueexponent.org/?module=article&story_id=21197 (http://purdueexponent.org/?module=article&story_id=21197)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on May 04, 2010, 03:20:18 AM
http://goldderby.latimes.com/awards_goldderby/2010/05/winners-announced-gold-derby-film-decade-awards.html

BEST MOTION PICTURE
1. "The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King"
2. "Brokeback Mountain"
3. "Moulin Rouge"

BEST LEAD ACTOR
1. Daniel Day-Lewis as Daniel Plainview in "There Will Be Blood"
2. Heath Ledger as Ennis Del Mar in "Brokeback Mountain"
3. Adrien Brody as Wladyslaw Szpilman in "The Pianist"

BEST ADAPTED SCREENPLAY
1. Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossana for "Brokeback Mountain"
2. Tina Fey for "Mean Girls"
3. Charlie Kaufman & Donald Kaufman for "Adaptation"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 04, 2010, 07:31:23 PM
 :)  Oh, I 'm so glad!!  

Got to say though - #1 in Best Picture should be Brokeback Mountain.    
                            #1 in Best Actor should Heath as Ennis Del Mar in BBM.
And they certainly got Larry & Diana correct for best adapted screenplay for BBM.

It makes my heart smile to see things like this.  Every time I think of those cursed "ampas" members  >:D  and what was deliberately done in Feb. 2006 to BBM, my blood boils.  
HA!!  Those "heffalumps" are NEVER going to live this one down.

p.s.  Heath, again, should be #1 Best Supporting Actor in The Dark Knight.  
And of course Jake should be there too for Best Supporting Actor in BBM.  
How about co-wins for #1 - the two of them certainly deserve it.  

Wonderful, deserved praise and recognition for such a truly great film!  Everything about it is unforgettable.
Our beloved Heath...if only you were here...sweetheart :-*    :'(

kathy    
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 08, 2010, 11:49:00 AM
Question about shopping at Amazon through the forum link...
I was limited to certain categories and wonder if it is because the entire site is not available via the link. (I wanted to buy a couple movies but could not get to anything besides Jake/Heath/Ang/etc films. Same for books and cds.)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 13, 2010, 08:05:49 PM
Class Acting Scene: Brokeback Mountain

http://www.twitvid.com/5NRKC (http://www.twitvid.com/5NRKC)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on May 14, 2010, 04:19:05 AM
Don't know about you John, but I thought they were pretty good!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 14, 2010, 09:52:47 AM
Don't know about you John, but I thought they were pretty good!

I've seen a few of these acting class videos, and I agree they were pretty good.

I did not like the addition of the kiss. It doesn't belong in that scene.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Oregondoggie on May 14, 2010, 04:29:36 PM

Powerful.

This is exactly why there needs to be a stage version.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 14, 2010, 08:28:39 PM
I've seen a few of these acting class videos, and I agree they were pretty good.

I did not like the addition of the kiss. It doesn't belong in that scene.

John -- I did not like the addition of the kiss either.  >:(    It does NOT belong in this pivotal scene where Ennis breaks down and sobs in Jack's arms.  
And - if I may - they didn't even know the correct lines/words.  But, I admit the actor who portrays "Jack" tries harder than the other one.  That one really didn't know the correct lines or words.

kathy  
p.s.  OK, I know I'm prejudiced.
p.s. p.s.  And the way the "audience" responded just wasn't "right" to me.  This scene is just too sad and emotional.
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 14, 2010, 09:27:41 PM
The actor playing Jack is like 10 times better than the other guy for sure.

His name is Craig Deering, and he's one of the stars of the Allen & Craig show on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/user/EvilIguanaProduction (http://www.youtube.com/user/EvilIguanaProduction)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 14, 2010, 09:34:44 PM
and Craig also plays one of Heath Ledger's role's in this spoof:


(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/CDDK.jpg)


The Dark Knight Trailer Spoof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sYBqhOEdRQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sYBqhOEdRQ)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 16, 2010, 07:02:06 PM
Question about shopping at Amazon through the forum link...
I was limited to certain categories and wonder if it is because the entire site is not available via the link. (I wanted to buy a couple movies but could not get to anything besides Jake/Heath/Ang/etc films. Same for books and cds.)

For the time being, the Forum's Amazon store is not generating any commissions for the forum. They have closed the accounts for associates based in Colorado which includes the Forum.

If the problem gets resolved, I can go in and fix it, but I'm not going to spend any time on it right now.


Amazon.com: Fighting for Free Speech? Or Against Sales Tax?

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on May 17, 2010, 09:33:25 AM
For the time being, the Forum's Amazon store is not generating any commissions for the forum. They have closed the accounts for associates based in Colorado which includes the Forum.

If the problem gets resolved, I can go in and fix it, but I'm not going to spend any time on it right now.


Amazon.com: Fighting for Free Speech? Or Against Sales Tax?

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597 (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/amazoncom-fighting-free-speech-sales-tax/story?id=10607597)

Our local news programs have been running a story about people from Tennessee going to Virginia to shop because the sales tax is less in VA. I've lived in TN 10 years and don't know a single person who does that... most can't tell you what the sales tax IS in TN much less in VA. However, the town of Bristol (think NASCAR) is built right on the state line... half of it is in TN and half in VA. Citizens on the TN side are now getting tax bills for what they purchase on the VA side even if those stores are the closest to them. Every penny counts.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 28, 2010, 07:44:37 PM
 :)  Hello --
I've been sitting and thinking about one of my favorite photos and quote, one that is on the forums but I can't remember which one.
It's a subscript saying "The eyes are the window of the soul".  There is a shot of Heath's eyes on the left and a shot of Jake's on the right of the quote.
I think it's beautiful; just wanted to post that.

Also, on the forum (can't remember which) at the bottom there is a subscript with a beautiful photo of Jack & Ennis from the SNIT.  There are the words "The first time ever I kissed your lips, etc...." beneath it.   
I think this is beautiful too.

They are so touching.   :-*

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 29, 2010, 08:25:02 PM
 :)  Thanks, jess, for sending me the photo and verse.  I love it.

And - I was sitting here just thinking of another fact -

Remember when Diana Ossana put on a tape of Heath in Monster's Ball to show to Larry McMurtry?  Larry said to her: "I don't need to see anymore.  That's our Ennis".  Fate...

kathy 

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 29, 2010, 10:52:44 PM
I just sent an email to the Government of Alberta, Canada:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your website at  http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)

Has incorrect information:

"Though set in Montana, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film. "

Brokeback Mountain was set in Wyoming, not Montana


John Trudell
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on May 30, 2010, 11:47:16 AM

Brokeback Mountain - Best Bits


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 30, 2010, 12:58:44 PM
I just sent an email to the Government of Alberta, Canada:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your website at  http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)

Has incorrect information:

"Though set in Montana, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film. "

Brokeback Mountain was set in Wyoming, not Montana


John Trudell
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php


Way to go, John!

Please let us know if you get an answer.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 30, 2010, 01:00:12 PM
Brokeback Mountain - Best Bits


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0)

I thought I was immune by now.

The last scene made me cry -- again.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 30, 2010, 05:53:07 PM
I just sent an email to the Government of Alberta, Canada:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Your website at  http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)

Has incorrect information:

"Though set in Montana, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film. "

Brokeback Mountain was set in Wyoming, not Montana


John Trudell
The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php


Hi John - I am so happy you sent this piece of truth!  I truly hope you get a response from them.
kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 30, 2010, 06:13:40 PM
Brokeback Mountain - Best Bits


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytZnnMNo1r0)

I love this so much. I always cry.  Always.   :-*

p.s.  (Is there some way that homophobic and disrespectful slurs can be deleted from the sites?  I hate seeing them, with their ranting and raving and disrepect for Heath and Jake, also BBM in general).
Can we do anything to stop these crazies - it makes me furious.

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on May 30, 2010, 06:33:24 PM
Can we do anything to stop these crazies - it makes me furious.

Unfortunately, I don't think so.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 31, 2010, 12:57:39 PM
Forum Member Inspires Canadian Government to Tell the Truth About Brokeback Mountain

Hi John - I am so happy you sent this piece of truth!  I truly hope you get a response from them.
kathy  

I got a reply today  :)


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi John,

 

Thank you for the information, I have looked into your enquiry and you are correct. The change has been made on the website.

 

Leanne Meters

Web Analyst
Information Management & Technology Services
Culture and Community Spirit
Tourism, Parks and Recreation
5th. Floor, 10055 - 106 Street
Edmonton, AB T5J 1G3

----------------------------------------------------------------------



Though set in Wyoming, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film.

http://culture.alberta.ca/ (http://culture.alberta.ca/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 31, 2010, 01:00:56 PM
Great job John!

So now all is good and well.  :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 31, 2010, 01:12:06 PM
Great job John!

So now all is good and well.  :)

Not all good and well.

What about all the websites that have the famous mis-quote:  "I wish I could quit you" ?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on May 31, 2010, 01:47:39 PM
Not all good and well.

What about all the websites that have the famous mis-quote:  "I wish I could quit you" ?


Don't know. I guess there's nothing to be done about most of them.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on May 31, 2010, 02:23:33 PM
Geaux John!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on May 31, 2010, 04:39:28 PM
Not all good and well.

What about all the websites that have the famous mis-quote:  "I wish I could quit you" ?


Can't you sleep just a little easier now, John?  

I hope so!  Congrats.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on May 31, 2010, 04:56:38 PM
Can't you sleep just a little easier now, John?  

I hope so!  Congrats.

Nope. Just getting started.

The Alberta website is still wrong!!

Quote
Though set in Wyoming, Brokeback Mountain was filmed all in Alberta, featuring more than 20 different locations including Kananaskis, Fort MacLeod and Canmore. Learn more about Alberta's film, television and digital media industry at Alberta Film.


Now I have to convince them that one of the filming locations was in New Mexico  ;D


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on May 31, 2010, 10:31:46 PM
 :)  Hi john - you got it changed to Wyoming - this is great!  I wish you could change all other errors out there...

Now, what do you (we) do about including New Mexico?

kathy   ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 01, 2010, 09:56:14 AM
In George-Michel Sarotte's Like a Lover, Like a Brother: Male Homosexuality in the American Novel and Theatre From Herman Melville to James Baldwin, he hits on a theme Sarotte says he finds often in books when there is to be gay love. That theme is a yellow ribbon. It is also seen in Proulx's Brokeback. Proulx describes their camp fire as "Yellow ribbons," and it carries over to the movie when their camp fire certainly does resemble yellow ribbons. Has anyone else read of this theme? Please let me know. If you are interested I will find Sarotte's reference.

If you believe you are burnt out on Brokeback, listen to the audio-book. It is seldom that a good story and a good reader are brought together.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 01, 2010, 10:03:32 AM
Welcome to the forum unanimous

I don't remember ever reading about yellow 'ribbons' in the s/s, but I think you're referring to this line:

The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the
fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on June 01, 2010, 11:06:29 AM
In George-Michel Sarotte's Like a Lover, Like a Brother: Male Homosexuality in the American Novel and Theatre From Herman Melville to James Baldwin, he hits on a theme Sarotte says he finds often in books when there is to be gay love. That theme is a yellow ribbon. It is also seen in Proulx's Brokeback. Proulx describes their camp fire as "Yellow ribbons," and it carries over to the movie when their camp fire certainly does resemble yellow ribbons. Has anyone else read of this theme? Please let me know. If you are interested I will find Sarotte's reference.

If you believe you are burnt out on Brokeback, listen to the audio-book. It is seldom that a good story and a good reader are brought together.

I'm afraid I can't agree.  There are a few lines left out (I know, picky, picky...but I want every word)  And I think he reads Jack like a whiny girl.

The quoted line above (...yellow silk sashes) is one that is not on the audio book...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 01, 2010, 11:28:13 AM
I haven't listened to the audio book in years now, but I did enjoy it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 01, 2010, 11:32:16 AM
I had not realized those important lines were missing. It's funny what we miss. Yellow silk sashes. That's it.

And, what role did Jack play in that relationship? He was the whinny one.

At one point I was listening to the audio-book and reading the story. I believed the reader's voice extremely sexy.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on June 01, 2010, 12:53:21 PM
Good to see you here, unanimous :).  I've listened to the audiobook a couple of times and liked it, and yes, it did in a strange way highlight different phrases and themes - using different pathways in the brain, I suppose.....

I didn't know of the idea of the yellow ribbon image.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on June 01, 2010, 05:06:16 PM
I had not realized those important lines were missing. It's funny what we miss. Yellow silk sashes. That's it.

And, what role did Jack play in that relationship? He was the whinny one.
At one point I was listening to the audio-book and reading the story. I believed the reader's voice extremely sexy.

don't get me started...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 06:42:22 AM
Can someone tell me if this s/s (Novella) subject has been discussed: It was not Jack Twist's first time on the mountain. With all the hardships of the mountain he lists in the first bar scene, including the need for plenty whiskey, what caused Jack's return to Brokeback?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 03, 2010, 07:47:06 AM
unanimous, I think --Basically, he needed a job!    :)

Here are links to where the subject has been discussed (and can be discussed again):

Opening Scenes (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=166.840)

or possibly --

All other scenes including Truck Scenes, Thanksgiving Scenes, Alley Scenes, etc.  (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=1054.1920)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 09:36:27 AM
"Years on years they worked their way through
the high meadows and mountain drainages,
Horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows,
South end of the Gallatins,
Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks,
The Bridger-Teton Range,
the Freezeouts and the Shirleys,
Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes,
Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again,
the Sierra Madres,
Gros Ventres,
The Washakies, Laramies,
But never returning to Brokeback.

I believe the last line says a bit more than one might see at first glance. It reminds me of Wordsworth's sad line "Though nothing can return the hour of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower."
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 03, 2010, 10:07:38 AM
Quote
But never returning to Brokeback.


Life imitates art.

Jake recently said that he can't watch Brokeback Mountain, and he said Michelle feels the same way.

At the AMPAS screening in L.A. 2 years ago, Diana Ossana treated us to an on stage interview and Q&A. She was there at the theater before the film started, but she couldn't watch it.

I invited Diana to the December event at the Autry, and she told me that she still can't bring herself to watch the movie because the whole experience was so personal.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 10:22:27 AM
Truly poignant. I do not watch as much as I'd like. The audio-book I listen to often because of the crispy clean writing.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 03, 2010, 10:30:36 AM
I haven't watched the movie since the AMPAS screening, and I won't see it again until December at the Autry.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 03, 2010, 10:35:50 AM
FindingBrokeback has the transcript of the August 2008 interview/Q&A with Diana.


http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Ossana/Ossana1.html (http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Ossana/Ossana1.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 03, 2010, 03:43:29 PM
"Years on years they worked their way through
the high meadows and mountain drainages,
Horse-packing into the Big Horns, Medicine Bows,
South end of the Gallatins,
Absarokas, Granites, Owl Creeks,
The Bridger-Teton Range,
the Freezeouts and the Shirleys,
Ferrises and the Rattlesnakes,
Salt River Range, into the Wind Rivers over and again,
the Sierra Madres,
Gros Ventres,
The Washakies, Laramies,
But never returning to Brokeback.

I believe the last line says a bit more than one might see at first glance. It reminds me of Wordsworth's sad line "Though nothing can return the hour of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower."


This was a Topic of the Week discussion back in December 2009:


http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38436.msg1742643#msg1742643 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=38436.msg1742643#msg1742643)

The topic is closed and archived, but feel free to post replies here.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 03, 2010, 03:56:52 PM
What an emotional whallop of an impact BBM had on my heart andmind - it doesn't end.
But I don't believe I want it to end; I love it, and the impact does not leave me. 

kathy    :(
p.s.  I don't think words spoken could ever be better than Heath and Jack.  That beautiful screenplay...acting.................
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on June 03, 2010, 06:09:46 PM
A recording (in segments) of Rodney Giles reading the short story can be found here, at the bottom/beginning of the list of uploads. These were taped while he was reading the story at the gathering in Estes Park, Colorado in 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/user/fritzkep#p/u

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 06:21:08 PM
In all seriousness, when one writes a short story every word counts. As I pointed out in an earlier post, when Proulx says that it was Jack's second summer on the mountain, it was something other than the sheep and hardships that brought his return, not even the need of a job. I believe those words tell us that Jack had at least some same sex experience. In the beginning of the movie, when Jack is checking-out Ennis in the mirror, he was gauging the availability or willingness of Ennis to fill the role of that person he shared the mountain with the summer before.

I believe it is the same with the phrase "But never returning to Brokeback." Proulx did not write, "But they didn't go back to Brokeback. Here, I believe,  she lets us know that no matter how hard they tried, "Years on years," the experience they shared on Brokeback Mountain could never be duplicated and Ennis and Jack understood it could never be again. That is why they did not go back.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 06:35:49 PM
I am sure that guy reading on YouTube is good, but the commercially released version is read by a professional named Campbell Scott. Truly great.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on June 03, 2010, 06:37:52 PM
Well, for what it's worth, Rodney Giles is a professional actor, too.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 06:51:07 PM
Oh yes, the "Yellow silk sashes" are there in the audio-book.

Has the "With the help of a clear slick and a little spit . . ." been discussed?

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 07:09:41 PM
Shall I say to the moment, "Abide, you are so beautiful..."

"You ever been with another man? Jack?"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on June 03, 2010, 07:12:24 PM
Shall I say to the moment, "Abide, you are so beautiful..."


Genau.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 03, 2010, 07:50:19 PM
I am listening to the music from Brokeback Mountain, Emmylou Harris singing "A Love That Will Never Grow Old."

There are few loves that I know of like that, except the love of Ennis and Jack. I know I will forever love their love.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 03, 2010, 07:56:57 PM
Well, for what it's worth, Rodney Giles is a professional actor, too.



I like both readings.

Rodney does better on a lot of the passages, and CS does better on some.

There is also an audio only recording by Rodney, but I don't know if it's online anymore. Brokeback Mountain Radio played it a few times.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 03, 2010, 08:02:29 PM
Oh yes, the "Yellow silk sashes" are there in the audio-book.

Has the "With the help of a clear slick and a little spit . . ." been discussed?



Well, the line has been quoted several times, but I don't remember either the slick or the spit being analyzed.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 03, 2010, 08:49:38 PM

Has the "With the help of a clear slick and a little spit . . ." been discussed?



unanimous, yes!

But it can be discussed again.

Specific elements of the story have their own threads for discussion.  You can go to the thread for discussing First Night in the Tent  (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=192.3960)

Look at the board "Scene by Scene."  That is generally where we discuss in depth aspects of the story, even if they are from the Short Story, as they compare with the movie.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 04, 2010, 07:44:43 AM
As you know, I am the new guy. Please, be gentle. Being the FNG to this discussion I see Ennis' use of a condom as a new aspect of the story, never really thought-out by me.

Their first summer on the mountain was 1963. While most of you guys were not born, I was already grown and in the full swing of things. Not many "slicks" were being used. (Forgive our ignorance. We had no clue.)

But Proulx is no ignorant. She writes with purpose.

Having Ennis put on a condom was well thought out and deliberate. But it raises two questions. Why did Ennis carry a condom to the mountain, and since he brought a condom, why did he not also bring lube? Well, his spit can be contributed to field expediency. One cannot carry everything in such a situation, so use what's on hand. (Pun)

I cannot find humor in this story, but there are lessons. Annie, thank you for the lesson.

"The spit has not been analyzed." Now, that is funny. I am thankful for that, also.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on June 04, 2010, 09:13:46 AM
Proulx read an hour’s worth of her memoir at Fowler Hall and answered questions from students afterward. She explained her reasoning behind making the protagonists of “Brokeback Mountain” cowboys.

“If you live in the West, you know the most revered occupation is the cowboy ... it is the symbol of refined masculinity,” Proulx said. “What a lot of readers don’t understand is the characters in ‘Brokeback Mountain’ – the story, not the movie – are not cowboys, they are wanna-be cowboys. Just because you wear a big hat and ride a horse, it does not make you a cowboy.” [boliding added]

Interesting distinction -- IMO the movie didn't add any faux glamour to the characters' lives, other than the good looks of Heath and Jake. I'd be interested to hear how she thought the movie depicted them as "real" cowboys.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on June 04, 2010, 09:17:06 AM
Well, for what it's worth, Rodney Giles is a professional actor, too.

Rodney read BBM aloud right before the memorial service for Heath and Jackie two years ago.  Though I still prefer the film, it was a memorable experience for all of us present.

BTW, I'm not sure if this has already made the rounds, but Rodney was in the hospital recently. He's now at home, which is currently in Overland Park, Kansas (metro KC area).

Sorry about the OT notice.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 04, 2010, 10:37:20 AM
Just saw Keith in Lords of Dogtown. He did a couple of jigs in that movie that sure resembles the dance that Jake does in Jarhead, except Keith had his clothes on.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: August7th on June 04, 2010, 12:24:56 PM
As you know, I am the new guy. Please, be gentle. Being the FNG to this discussion I see Ennis' use of a condom as a new aspect of the story, never really thought-out by me.

Their first summer on the mountain was 1963. While most of you guys were not born, I was already grown and in the full swing of things. Not many "slicks" were being used. (Forgive our ignorance. We had no clue.)

But Proulx is no ignorant. She writes with purpose.

Having Ennis put on a condom was well thought out and deliberate. But it raises two questions. Why did Ennis carry a condom to the mountain, and since he brought a condom, why did he not also bring lube? Well, his spit can be contributed to field expediency. One cannot carry everything in such a situation, so use what's on hand. (Pun)

I cannot find humor in this story, but there are lessons. Annie, thank you for the lesson.

"The spit has not been analyzed." Now, that is funny. I am thankful for that, also.

Actually, I'm pretty sure "clear slick" doesn't refer to a condom, but rather to pre-cum. So she's saying the only lube Ennis had to use was pre-cum and spit.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 04, 2010, 07:31:31 PM
Dat makes more sense. Boy, am I getting old.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 04, 2010, 08:12:13 PM
Disciplining Desire: the Fluid Textuality of Annie
Proulx’s “Brokeback Mountain”


Mark John Isola, Wentworth Institute of Technology

Quote

The metaphor of the clear slick socializes the sexual telling by veiling the contents of the sexual tale. The narrative focus remains on the
metonymically rendered penis, and the location of penetration, which via a hermeneutic of suspicion is quite present, is subordinated to an
anthropomorphic direct object: “entered him.” This obscures the rectum by refusing to specifically mention it. Accordingly, the narrative
negotiates the reader’s homo/sexual anxiety, which was expectedly feverishly high just one year after the development of protease
inhibitors.

 First published in 1997, “Brokeback Mountain” may be chronologically set before the emergence of the AIDS epidemic, thereby
sparing it the contentious charge of eroticizing unsafe sex; however, Proulx’s narrative is inevitably delimited, if not deformed, by the
epidemic. As such, it risks invoking the contemporary specters surrounding homo/sexuality, particularly as they were detected by Lo
Bersani’s questioning the burgeoning status of the rectum as a grave in the Age of AIDS

There may be no condom in the tent scene, but there  is plenty of lube, for its protagonist is as transgressive in the world of the narrative as he is in the world of the narration, and this bi-directional writing and reading complication is negotiated in the narrative’s structure and content with a fluid motif.

As Ennis’ wife Alma obliquely notes, a transgressive nonprocreative recreational sexuality lies at the heart of Ennis’ character:



“And under that, thought, anyway, what you [Ennis] like to do don’t make too many babies” (31). Alma’s understanding is symbolically
echoed in Ennis’ name, which can be interpreted as a wet metaphor. The name “Ennis,” which is nearly a homonym for the word anus, invokes an
island in the Celtic naming tradition, and the surname “del Mar” translates readily in several romantic languages to mean “of the sea.”
This naming, which simultaneously invokes the location of the anus as well as an island, suggestively symbolizes Ennis’ sexually transgressive
character. The narration of similar characters has been historically marginalized in the history of American publishing, especially when it
comes to describing the sex act behind the sexual subjectivity, and such writing has often been labeled pornographic and has often been charged
with obscenity. Proulx’s deployment of a fluid textuality, as in the tent sex scene, spares the narrative the contentious charge of prurience to
which it would be prey, if not prone, if the act of anal penetration was narrated using more revealing quotidian sexual language like erection,
penis, cock, asshole, etc. On the level of the narrative’s content and structure, the metaphor of the “clear slick” negotiates a controversial sex
act, a proscribed sexuality, and the location of the rectum, particularly as this thorny trio holds the potential to invoke the specters of passive
recreational anal sex in the Age of AIDS.

http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122 (http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Dal on June 05, 2010, 03:21:03 PM
^^^^^^
I think the reason Jack and Ennis kept going to the mountains, was to get away from queer theory.  If they'd had the dinero, they'd have gone to the South pole.  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 06, 2010, 12:42:41 PM

Brokeback Mountain: The Celluloid Closet Case



Quote
In adapting literature, even short stories, the audience knows that there are sacrifices to be made. Since literature is a medium that primarily consists of words and film is one where the visual is crucial, there are obvious changes to be made to make the text more accessible to film-goers. Over the years, it would seem that by now studio executives would be getting something right. Sadly, this is not always the case. Stakes need to be heightened for film and the exposition and occasionally internal thought need to be cut down, but largely the end result remains the same. However, on occasion there are films that bear nothing more than a passing resemblance to their source material, even instances where the only similarity is that the two share the same title. However, it is particularly offensive when a beautiful short story is turned into a film for reasons other than its exceptional story. The particular atrocity I’m referring to is that of Brokeback Mountain, originally written by Annie E. Proulx for The New Yorker in 1997 and directed for the screen by Ang Lee in 2005. The original short story is a compassionate account of two men’s love affair which plays out through the course of their lives. Ang Lee’s account of the story stays faithful to the events of the short story, but being that it is a film, loses most of the emotional complexity of the characters. Although Proulx felt that her source material was done justice, it is my personal belief that Brokeback Mountain should be understood merely as a product of its time and not as some great beacon of hope for the gay community.



Quote
Brokeback Mountain is a complex movie. While it is true that it was one of the first high-grossing films with two mainstream actors willing to play gay, it also must be understood as a political and almost exploitative look at homosexuality. Its origins, in writing, are filled with good intentions, but its pathway to being made forces me to question the motives of the studios and the filmmakers themselves. Meanwhile, when it finally was made it capitalized on the political attitudes of the time to make money, something that I still wish didn’t shock me as much as it did. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this film is often praised for breaking boundaries, which it certainly did. However, it also played it safe in many regards, particularly the marketing and the illustration of Jack and Ennis’s relationship. While the film certainly does have its finer attributes, I feel it’s important to understand it as a pawn in a larger game that still has yet to be played out.



The full blog post can be found here:
http://selfproclaimedmegalomaniac.blogspot.com/2010/06/brokeback-mountain-celluloid-closet.html?zx=90c9e3502ed454fa (http://selfproclaimedmegalomaniac.blogspot.com/2010/06/brokeback-mountain-celluloid-closet.html?zx=90c9e3502ed454fa)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 06, 2010, 04:55:23 PM
 :)  Hi bcj - RE your replies #784 and #786 today --

Heavens, I can't believe what these bastards  >:D  printed.  
Whoever these "columnists" or "authors" are that wrote these two disgusting pieces of bunk certainly do not now and never will see or understand the beautiful and superb fim Brokeback Mountain is.  It clearly is an agenda and purpose of theirs to put it down.  
They are a couple of bastards and as such should be ignored and noted as clearly anti-BBM.   What's their agenda anyway?
Reminds me of the disgusting anti-BBM campaign waged deliberately by ampas  >:D and their stooges about three weeks before their "awards" in Feb. 2006.
 
How I wish these pieces of trash could be stopped before publication.  If I had the power to do it, I would.

kathy   >:(     >:(
p.s.  You notice one of them is such a coward he does not sign his(?) name and goes to a blog??  Cowardly jackass. 
And the other one - Isola (Wentworth Inst. of Technology - what does technology have to do w/BBM anyway??) - is as much as a jackass as the unnamed one.
 
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 07, 2010, 11:31:27 AM
Alternative views and diverse opinions and, certainly, just plain stupidity, should be nipped in the bud at all costs.

It is so sad.  :'(
G
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 07, 2010, 04:20:56 PM
Well, I don't think it is bad to disagree with something that has been printed or written by know-it-all, so-called "journalists".  I thought it was understood that we could.  Let's face it, "journalists" and "writers" are never right all of the time.  In my local paper, there are complaints every day about almost all of them. 

I truly do not think these two "columns" or whatever you call them are worth the paper they are printed on.  And I certainly believe they are truly anti-BBM in their snide and rather insulting remarks.

kathy
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 07, 2010, 04:35:32 PM
Well, I don't think it is bad to disagree with something that has been printed
 
Agreed.  However disagreement might be construed as being a bit different from "stopped before publication".

Anyway, the name of the author of the blog pretty much sums up the content and tone of the article.
As for Mr. or Dr. Isola, I fear only he and his thesaurus know for sure what in the world he is talking about.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 07, 2010, 04:50:33 PM
As for Mr. or Dr. Isola, I fear only he and his thesaurus know for sure what in the world he is talking about.

thank you!

I'm almost afraid to search for his essay “Blood, Urine, and Pre-cum: the Polemical Poetics of Annie Proulx’s ‘Brokeback Mountain’”
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 07, 2010, 04:51:34 PM
Agreed.  However disagreement might be construed as being a bit different from "stopped before publication".

Anyway, the name of the author of the blog pretty much sums up the content and tone of the article.
As for Mr. or Dr. Isola, I fear only he and his thesaurus know for sure what in the world he is talking about.

Yes - we certainly do agree on this.  I've got to admit that when I read both so-called "articles", my immediate reaction was truly   ???   ??? 
kathy  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 07, 2010, 04:56:57 PM
thank you!

I'm almost afraid to search for his essay “Blood, Urine, and Pre-cum: the Polemical Poetics of Annie Proulx’s ‘Brokeback Mountain’”


Bwaaa! :D :D :D

I know, I know.  Good lord John, did you try to read that drivel?
"After all, a writer does not necessarily have to be gay—or
male—or American—to attempt the expression of a gay male American
subjectivity. Success here depends on the pen, not the penis or the
passport."
huh?
I am afraid the poor guy is choking on his own "aquatic trope".  ;)

(I could  swear someone else has invoked this Isola dude?  Does anyone remember?)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 07, 2010, 04:59:33 PM
Bwaaa! :D :D :D

I know, I know.  Good lord John, did you try to read that drivel?

yes I tried.

I just assumed it was a joke, that he was making fun of BBM fans who tend to over-analyze the story.  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 07, 2010, 08:42:06 PM
I really should not have tried to read those jackasses'  >:D  "articles".  I became so angry & upset.   
But - I never thought it (they) was a joke.  I knew immediately they were idiot anti-BBM jackasses - one a complete idiot and the other a complete coward idiot who has to blog. 
It's hard to know that there is still such trash being put online.  Maybe I'm too sensitive when it comes to our beloved BBM, but I must say this: Curse them both. >:D   They deserve it. 
   
kathy    >:(      >:(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 08, 2010, 04:37:38 AM
Alternative views and diverse opinions and, certainly, just plain stupidity, should be nipped in the bud at all costs.

It is so sad.  :'(
G
Well said, Gary.  :)
We can't have counter-opinions, can we?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 08, 2010, 04:51:54 AM
...nevertheless, I want to thank BCJ for posting those two links.

(a) Brokeback Mountain: The Celluloid Closet Case

I was intrigued about the amount of what could becalled bile this article seemed to have provoked, so took the time to read it in its entirety, and found it to be worthy of comment.

According to the US First Amendment, unless I'm mistaken, the author is not only entitled to his opinion but free to publicise it wherever, and whenever, he wants.
 
That said, I didn’t find anything in the article (leaving aside the political references, with which I’m unfamiliar) about which I’d raise an eyebrow, with two possible exceptions:

• his use of the word “atrocity”—a less emotive word could have been a more suitable choice for his otherwise rational thesis; and,

• perhaps, in his final sentence—“...it’s important to understand [the film] as a pawn in a larger game that still has yet to be played out.”
 
But I particularly liked his question (regarding conservatives’ protests forcing “average Americans to ask themselves”): “What are they getting so worked up about?”   :)

I found that many of the writer’s points, overall, had merit.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 08, 2010, 04:59:41 AM
(b) http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122

An illuminating and thought provoking essay, touching on several points which were, no doubt, and if my memory is correct, discussed by Mini-A, et al,  some time ago.

A few quibbles, though:
 
The author states, on page 42, that  “Earl is found in a waterless irrigation ditch;” and, on page 43, that the ditch is “dessicated.”
I recall some discussion with CSI on this point and our eventual agreement was that, as I recall,  that as Proulx doesn’t mention the presence of water (“... they found Earl dead in a [sic] irrigation ditch”) her choice of “irrigation” presupposes the ditch as actually containing water; otherwise it would be a mere “ditch.”
A moot point, perhaps.

The other issue is on page 38: Ennis’s “refusal to embrace Jack face-to-face by hugging him behind during their final parting...”
Clearly an error, not only as both men continued to meet after they’d left the mountain, but also, as they eventually descended the mountain together, the embrace could have only occurred earlier than the time of that joint descent.
 
Nevertheless (and admitting I became a little befuddled when Freud and Lacan appeared), the writer’s points generally struck a chord.
His references to the narrative’s two kitchen scenes, and to the Twist’s bathroom, raised issues which are worth further consideration here (if they haven't already).

Finally, I liked the points he raised about Proulx’s handling[?] of Ennis and Jack’s first sexual encounter, and of their time at the Motel Siesta.

I’ve always found her avoidance of overt reference to the mechanics and byproducts of (unsafe) male-to-male anal sex to be not a little intriguing.  >:D   ;)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 10:36:02 AM

I found that many of the writer’s points, overall, had merit.


I did not. 
I also did not find anything "snide or insulting" regarding either the film or the SS. As a matter of fact, it is rather obvious that "megalomaniac" is rather fond of both.

He is basically attacking the "business" end of show business, however and his arguments do not hold up.  The film follows the SS in terms of mood, style, and thematic intent in every aspect.  The fact that the "marketing' of the film did not embrace the homosexual content as explicitly as the author might have liked perhaps has some merit though the same can be said for many mainstream film marketing campaigns. 
The fact that the script was not produced for several years is hardly cause for the alarm that "megalomaniac" attempts to sound.  Hollywood is not in the business of producing product for the sole purpose of advancing social agendas or enlightening the great unwashed. 
Yes, the American lunatic religious right wing-nuts attacked the film.  Well, duh!

There is nothing new in "megalomaniac's" comments but there is certainly nothing anywhere near an attack on either the film or the SS. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 10:56:16 AM
(b) http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/118/122

An illuminating and thought provoking essay, touching on several points which were, no doubt, and if my memory is correct, discussed by Mini-A, et al,  some time ago.

Ah yes, thank you Paul.  I knew Isola rang a distant and discordant bell. 
The "water trope" as a staple of homosexual literature remains peripherally interesting but even Isola, as I have discovered, has abandoned the topic as a subject for
his dissertation. 
Wise decision, in my opinion. ("Academic Whores and Publishing Pimps..." sounds much more fun.)
Again, certainly nothing snide or insulting regarding either the film or the SS in his remarks and I will refrain from castigating him for teaching at a school that has the word "technology" in its moniker.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 11:13:03 AM

Finally, I liked the points he raised about Proulx’s handling[?] of Ennis and Jack’s first sexual encounter, and of their time at the Motel Siesta.

I’ve always found her avoidance of overt reference to the mechanics and byproducts of (unsafe) male-to-male anal sex to be not a little intriguing.  >:D   ;)



quote from that essay:

-----------------------------------

Proulx’s deployment of a fluid textuality, as in the tent sex scene, spares the narrative the contentious charge of prurience to
which it would be prey, if not prone, if the act of anal penetration was narrated using more revealing quotidian sexual language like erection,
penis, cock, asshole, etc.


----------------------------------

Which makes no sense when you consider what A.P. actually wrote:

Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 11:51:02 AM
Quote
Which makes no sense when you consider what A.P. actually wrote:

Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.

Yes, exactly, John.
And I am not sure how much more quotidian one can get than the following:

got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down,
hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered
him,


It is certainly not porn but it ain't Jane Austen either.  ;)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 01:37:33 PM
Something that really bugs me is when people misquote the most famous line in the movie.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Recent movie quotes that rank with the best in history





I wish I could quit you.

-Brokeback Mountain (2005)

Related quote from movie history: “We’ll always have Paris.”

What made Brokeback Mountain work wasn’t so much the conflict of western/gay storylines was the fact that it was a pure love story, regardless of context. Star-crossed lovers is an internal story, but delivered with the casual yet devastating drawl of the now deceased Heath Ledger, it will last forever.



Read more: http://www.tynansanger.com/#ixzz0qI9FpXtU (http://www.tynansanger.com/#ixzz0qI9FpXtU)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 02:30:53 PM

Recent movie quotes that rank with the best in history

LOL, good heavens, John.
HOW do you find this stuff?

As a side note, my two sons,both film freaks, have developed a language of their own which consists mainly of dialogue from movies.
There are times when they might as well be speaking Akkadian.   :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 02:48:45 PM
LOL, good heavens, John.
HOW do you find this stuff?

I have a secret application on my computer called 'Google'.  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 03:05:15 PM
Ethan Stanislawski commented on the article with this:


Quote
Not sure whether this will be a “Play it again, Sam,” situation, because I feel that every time I hear it quoted it’s “I wish I could quit you.” I could be wrong though; purely anecdotal.

Read more: http://www.tynansanger.com/2010/06/recent-movie-quotes-that-rank-with-the-best-in-history#comments#ixzz0qIX646oh (http://www.tynansanger.com/2010/06/recent-movie-quotes-that-rank-with-the-best-in-history#comments#ixzz0qIX646oh)

which is perfect because the author (Ethan Stanislawski) uses another related quote from Casablanca
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 03:29:34 PM
which is perfect because the author (Ethan Stanislawski) uses another related quote from Casablanca

Poor Ethan, he's two for two.
One more and well, you know.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 03:35:43 PM
so maybe I shouldn't point out the misquote from Milk ?  :D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 03:55:59 PM
so maybe I shouldn't point out the misquote from Milk ?  :D

No, leave the poor guy alone. 
Casino Royale is wrong as is There Will Be Blood.

This argues for some sort of entrance exam prior to be allowed to start a blog!  ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 04:00:03 PM
No, leave the poor guy alone. 

Ok. I'll stick with beans fixin' BBM misquotes.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on June 08, 2010, 05:33:09 PM
i've been looking for this everywhere...

some special effects done in the movie, backed by the Shawshank soundtrack...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 08, 2010, 06:57:59 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks!
I found this a couple of years ago, I think on the website of the company that did the FX and have been unable to locate it since.
I didn't now it was up on youtube.
G
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 07:00:59 PM
The company website is still online, but the videos on the site are too small and hard to find.

http://www.buzzimage.com/ (http://www.buzzimage.com/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 08, 2010, 10:16:45 PM
Quote from bcj today (partial):
"What made Brokeback Mountain work wasn’t so much the conflict of western/gay storylines was the fact that it was a pure love story, regardless of context. Star-crossed lovers is an internal story, but delivered with the casual yet devastating drawl of the now deceased Heath Ledger, it will last forever."

Wow - I couldn't agree with you more on this!!  Thx, john, for posting these things.  
And - how could anyone not remember "I wish I knew how to quit you"?  
kathy   :)

p.s.  And - I will always believe that those two "authors" (??) - Isola and the no-name coward blogger - are jackasses. >:D  
What they wrote is pure trash and anti-BBM all the way.   >:(

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 08, 2010, 10:20:09 PM

And - how could anyone not remember "I wish I knew how to quit you"? 


The same way they remember "Play it again, Sam".  They never saw the movie.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 08, 2010, 10:33:05 PM
The same way they remember "Play it again, Sam".  They never saw the movie.

John - That is exactly what I thought (never saw it) from the beginning! 
kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 09, 2010, 12:44:25 AM
I found that many of the writer’s points, overall, had merit.
I did not. 
Perhaps I should have been less generous...  ::)

Quote from: garyd
I also did not find anything "snide or insulting" regarding either the film or the SS. ~
Neither did I.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 09, 2010, 01:30:07 AM
quote from that essay:
-----------------------------------
Proulx’s deployment of a fluid textuality, as in the tent sex scene, spares the narrative the contentious charge of prurience to
which it would be prey, if not prone, if the act of anal penetration was narrated using more revealing quotidian sexual language like erection,
penis, cock, asshole, etc.

----------------------------------

Which makes no sense when you consider what A.P. actually wrote:

Ennis ran full throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he
wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock.
His statement still stands up, though.

Proulx provides only the barest of necessary information about what's actually going on.
"He wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his limp member" would have been, as the initiating event, a nonsense. :D
And she doesn't tell us with what part of his body Ennis “entered him,” either.
I guess she just wanted to get the entire thing out of the way as quickly as possible, and move on.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 09, 2010, 12:04:54 PM

And she doesn't tell us with what part of his body Ennis “entered him,” either.

Indeed, and as we often remind ourselves, AP provides us with the “long bones” of the story and we, the reader, are expected to supply the appropriate “soft tissue”.  Quite apt in this case.

Taking into consideration Ennis’ implied homosexual inexperience (not to mention his shared patriarchal heteronormative privilege),  in conjunction with the absence of any sort of instruction manual, it is still possible, I believe, for the reader to eliminate certain apertures (aural and olfactory for example) as the locus of penetration  

Furthermore, Jack’s exclamation of the distinctly non-quotidian  “guns goin’ off” at a rather climactic moment in the scene negates the assumption that the exclamation is either nugatory or in compliance with “Isolan” aquatic trope deployment (much less  fluviographic poetics) though the latter is, perhaps, best addressed separately.  
Indeed, Jack’s apparent oral communication facilities imply, (in the absence of any evidence that he is a student of Demosthenean elocution techniques,) his oral aperture to be free from obstruction.  
By process of apertural elimination, this leaves the reader with scant choice but to settle upon the decidedly prurient prone “asshole”.  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 10, 2010, 04:50:29 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Indeed, and as we often remind ourselves, AP provides us with the “long bones” of the story and we, the reader, are expected to supply the appropriate “soft tissue”.  Quite apt in this case.
Agreed. But she does, even with the long bones, provide room for lots of possible interpretations.

Quote from: garyd
Taking into consideration Ennis’ implied homosexual inexperience (not to mention his shared patriarchal heteronormative privilege),  in conjunction with the absence of any sort of instruction manual, it is still possible, I believe, for the reader to eliminate certain apertures (aural and olfactory for example) as the locus of penetration.
While she doesn’t specify apertures, she does leave sufficient space for a reader to work out for him/herself into what part of Jack Ennis is entering.
You suggest that the reader could possibly eliminate the aural and olfactory apertures (to which I’ll refer in a moment), but omitted the visual.

Although it’s new to me, me being who I am (I really must get out more), I do believe that the phrase “fucked in the eye” is used, according to the Urban Dictionary, to describe “the feeling that someone has literally removed your eyeball, and inserted their genitalia into your gaping socket for their own enjoyment, with minimal concern for yourself.”
Well, that sort of “fits” with what’s, presumably, going on.

As far as ear or nasal penetration are concerned (I mention penetration because that describes what happens when someone enters something [e.g. He entered the room; he entered Jack]), there are, apparently, some who actually indulge in such antics.
(I refrain from going into details, for obvious reasons.)
And I doubt an instruction manual is needed, human nature being what it is. *
Who would have thought Proulx was covering all bases with her skeletonic writing...  :D

Quote from: garyd
Furthermore, Jack’s exclamation of the distinctly non-quotidian  “guns goin’ off” at a rather climactic moment in the scene negates the assumption that the exclamation is either nugatory or in compliance with “Isolan” aquatic trope deployment (much less fluviographic poetics) though the latter is, perhaps, best addressed separately.  
I don't think anyone would assume his exclamation was “nugatory.”
But considering what’s (presumably) being fired (unless the chamber was empty, of course) from Jack’s “gun” (and we’re not told if anything was fired anyway), it could be any number of possible liquids and/or semi-liquids (tears, nasal discharge, saliva, earwax and so forth...) or solids (where was the rifle at this moment?).

Quote from: garyd
Indeed, Jack’s apparent oral communication facilities imply, (in the absence of any evidence that he is a student of Demosthenean elocution techniques,) his oral aperture to be free from obstruction.  
I detect a setup, here.  :o
Proulx clearly writes that Jack’s “gun’s goin off” was “choked.”
 :D :D :D

Quote from: garyd
By process of apertural elimination, this leaves the reader with scant choice but to settle upon the decidedly prurient prone “asshole”.  
I tend to disagree; it seems that there’s more to Proulx’s writing than meets the “eye.”
She’s just too, too vague and elusive to provide her readers with an accurate picture of what’s actually going on.  ;)
------------
* I recall a rather unorthodox method of entering someone in Warhol's Flesh for Frankenstein.   ::)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 10, 2010, 11:20:56 AM
In the s/s, after Ennis nails the postcard above his beloved shirts:

"He stepped back and looked at the ensemble through a few stinging tears."
"'Jack, I swear-' he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."

What would Ennis want to swear, except his undying love for Jack Twist.

It wrenches the heart right out of my chest.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 10, 2010, 11:35:03 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^Agreed. But she does, even with the long bones, provide room for lots of possible interpretations.
Apparently.
Quote
Although it’s new to me, me being who I am (I really must get out more), I do believe that the phrase “fucked in the eye” is used,
This is what I love about the DC forum.  There is always something new to be learned.
While I am intimately familiar with the concept of the "mind fuck", its visual cousin is, heretofore, foreign to me.
I am assuming, however, that the "eye fuck" is similar in effect to being forced to view hidden video footage of
Larry King and Betty While copulating.
Quote

I detect a setup, here.  :o
Proulx clearly writes that Jack’s “gun’s goin off” was “choked.”
Good catch.
Just when one is confident that AP, and the mystery that is BBM,  has finally been deciphered, the woman
inserts another bit of quicksilver.
Quote

* I recall a rather unorthodox method of entering someone in Warhol's Flesh for Frankenstein.   ::)

Oh dear, I thought the WHO had declared this scurge eradicated and now I find that it
has popped up down under.
The horror.
G
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 10, 2010, 11:45:41 AM
In the s/s, after Ennis nails the postcard above his beloved shirts:

"He stepped back and looked at the ensemble through a few stinging tears."
"'Jack, I swear-' he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind."

What would Ennis want to swear, except his undying love for Jack Twist.

It wrenches the heart right out of my chest.


Unanimous, your posts really fit much better in the "Scenes" section of the forum, there has been quite a bit of discussion about what Ennis means by "I swear."

I have given you several links, it's really easy to navigate "Scenes."

You would find a lot more discission of your posts there.

Another alternative might be "favorite quotes" (which can be found here in the "film and book" neighborhood.)

Now that your feet are wet, it's the perfect time to branch out to the specific threads.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: unanimous on June 10, 2010, 04:48:56 PM
My apology. This board seemed so friendly.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 10, 2010, 05:17:58 PM
My apology. This board seemed so friendly.

The board is friendly, unanimous.  There are topics and I am trying to help you get more responses by telling you the best place to post with your specific topics.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on June 10, 2010, 06:52:21 PM
My apology. This board seemed so friendly.

Unanimous, this board is friendly.

Ellen is not trying to stop you from posting.  She is simply directing you to other threads where they are having similar conversations, so that perhaps you may get more replies to your posts.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 10, 2010, 08:43:57 PM
It's obvious that many of you have never observed domesticated animals, well, doing it.  A real Ennis and a real Jack would have seen this all of their lives.  When Annie Proulx writes that no instructions were needed, all she was doing was acknowledging this fact.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 10, 2010, 09:23:02 PM
Constant reader, do you mean domesticated animals have anal sex?

Silly question - never mind, I know what you mean.

I think we all understand Ennis didn't need an instruction manual, and if there was any doubt, Annie makes it clear in the short story.

:)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 11, 2010, 06:48:03 AM
Wasn't it also pure instinct? We do tend to know what to do feed our emotional needs.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 11, 2010, 11:56:57 AM
Proulx clearly writes that Jack’s “gun’s goin off” was “choked.”
Good catch.
Thank you.
Now I’ll bounce the ball back....  ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 11, 2010, 12:05:52 PM
Just when one is confident that AP, and the mystery that is BBM, has finally been deciphered, the woman inserts another bit of quicksilver.
I wonder though, whether Proulx’s minimalist prose doesn’t actually drive readers to conclusions which she may not intend (I refer here specifically to the story’s sex-in-the tent scene).
Her somewhat cryptic description of what actually occurs opens the way to more than one interpretation.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that she tends to have what could be called a rather puritan approach (or words to that effect) as regards male/male sexual activities;
and so she shies clear of being too nosy (or well-informed?) about what men can actually get up to.

The sex in the Motel Siesta scene occurs literally “offstage.”
She devotes two sentences to a description of the room’s atmosphere and the location and arrangement of her protagonists’ bodies, leaving it to "the perceptive reader" to join the dots.

If anal intercourse has occurred there’s not much evidence to go by, just one word, and that's really nothing to go by.
Prior to this we have a reference to Ennis rolling Alma over and doing “quickly what she hated.”
(Which could be just about anything, although she later whines to herself about the fact that, whatever it is, “it doesn’t make too many babies.”
Proulx yet again avoids outlining what “this thing” actually is.)

There’s similarly no direct evidence in the story’s tent scene (the first time in the story that anything of a sexual nature is referred to, if I’m correct) that what most readers assume, so I gather, did actually occur.

“Ennis jerked his hand away as though he’d touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him.
They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack’s choked “gun’s goin off,” then out, down and asleep.”


Isolating these two sentences to consider them solely as a description of a physical activity is interesting.
What are they actually doing?
The only things we can be unequivocally sure about in the first sentence is that Ennis “jerked his hand away, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours...(and) entered him.”

Their physical positioning, however, is unclear—is Jack facing toward, or away, from Ennis?

Similarly ambiguous is who produced “the clear slick” and “a little spit.”

Also unclear is with what Ennis entered Jack, although “shoved his pants down” could be a clue.  :D

But into what part of Jack did Ennis enter him; and why are Jack’s three words “choked?”

I wonder...   ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 11, 2010, 12:07:20 PM
I recall a rather unorthodox method of entering someone in Warhol's Flesh for Frankenstein.   ::)
Oh dear, I thought the WHO had declared this scurge eradicated and now I find that it
has popped up down under.
The horror.
That great little movie popped up circa mid-70s, here.  :)

The Baron: “To know death, Otto, you have to fuck life in the gallbladder.”

(Or is it the other way around?  ;D)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on June 11, 2010, 12:36:03 PM
Constant reader, do you mean domesticated animals have anal sex?

Actually, it is not unheard of. When breeding a larger male dog to a smaller female, it happens that Part A sometimes fits into Part B rather than the intended Part C. The guys don't ever seem to mind but the gals are NEVER happy about it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 11, 2010, 03:53:24 PM
I wonder though, whether Proulx’s minimalist prose doesn’t actually drive readers to conclusions which she may not intend (I refer here specifically to the story’s sex-in-the tent scene).
Her somewhat cryptic description of what actually occurs opens the way to more than one interpretation.
I’ve mentioned elsewhere that she tends to have what could be called a rather puritan approach (or words to that effect) as regards male/male sexual activities;
and so she shies clear of being too nosy (or well-informed?) about what men can actually get up to.
While I think it is true that AP does not even allude, in any part of the SS, to oral sex, I am not sure to what this can be attributed.  
I admit it does seem odd.

Quote

The sex in the Motel Siesta scene occurs literally “offstage.”
She devotes two sentences to a description of the room’s atmosphere and the location and arrangement of her protagonists’ bodies, leaving it to "the perceptive reader" to join the dots.
In my opinion it is fairly easy to connect the dots, however.  She does have Jack compliment Ennis on his performance by concluding that it must be due to his riding skills.  This is certainly a strong implication of intercourse.

Quote

If anal intercourse has occurred there’s not much evidence to go by, just one word, and that's really nothing to go by.
Prior to this we have a reference to Ennis rolling Alma over and doing “quickly what she hated.”
(Which could be just about anything, although she later whines to herself about the fact that, whatever it is, “it doesn’t make too many babies.”
Proulx yet again avoids outlining what “this thing” actually is.)
Rolling Alma over and "doesn't make too many babies" is pretty clear.  Actually one would have to stretch what little information we have to conclude anything other than anal intercourse.  
Quote

There’s similarly no direct evidence in the story’s tent scene (the first time in the story that anything of a sexual nature is referred to, if I’m correct) that what most readers assume, so I gather, did actually occur.

“Ennis jerked his hand away as though he’d touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him.
They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack’s choked “gun’s goin off,” then out, down and asleep.”


Isolating these two sentences to consider them solely as a description of a physical activity is interesting.
What are they actually doing?
The only things we can be unequivocally sure about in the first sentence is that Ennis “jerked his hand away, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours...(and) entered him.”

Their physical positioning, however, is unclear—is Jack facing toward, or away, from Ennis?

Similarly ambiguous is who produced “the clear slick” and “a little spit.”
Again, what information we are given most closely fits with anal intercourse than with any other explanation.
In addition, they do wake up the following morning genital to buttock.  Nothing conclusive in that but still...
Finally,and correct me if I am wrong, "clear slick and spit" are not as important a prerequisite to oral sex as they might be to anal intercourse
and we are told that Ennis enters Jack, a description that is not really normative for describing oral sex.
Quote

Also unclear is with what Ennis entered Jack, although “shoved his pants down” could be a clue.  :D
A very clear clue in my opinion.  Certainly not graphic but hardly ambiguous unless one simply insists on making it so.

Quote

But into what part of Jack did Ennis enter him; and why are Jack’s three words “choked?”

I wonder...   ??? ??? ???

I don't wonder.  I really don't.
When all the elements are viewed as a whole, they all add up to anal intercourse.
To belabor the point, I think, is to miss the point.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 11, 2010, 04:21:58 PM
 ???    ???  I just don't "get" what the previous posts are meant to say.  What is the point in even arguing this (paul029)? 
For heaven's sake, of course it's anal intercourse in the FNIT. 

And as I said before, anyway, E&J during that glorious BBM summer, during the reunion, and anywhere else during all those years they met each other, would do it any which way they can as all lovers do.  Just an example - Ennis would want to be inside of Jack as much as Jack would want Ennis to be inside of him.  (Mods: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just couldn't let this one  ??? go). 

"To belabor the point is I think to miss the point".  (courtesy of garyd). 

kathy 
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 11, 2010, 04:51:18 PM
Oh dear, I thought the WHO had declared this scurge eradicated and now I find that it
has popped up down under.
The horror.
That great little movie popped up circa mid-70s, here.  :)

The Baron: “To know death, Otto, you have to fuck life in the gallbladder.”

(Or is it the other way around?  ;D)

No, as frightening as I find it, you have it in the correct order.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 11, 2010, 06:17:17 PM
???    ???  I just don't "get" what the previous posts are meant to say.  What is the point in even arguing this (paul029)? 
For heaven's sake, of course it's anal intercourse in the FNIT. 

And as I said before, anyway, E&J during that glorious BBM summer, during the reunion, and anywhere else during all those years they met each other, would do it any which way they can as all lovers do.  Just an example - Ennis would want to be inside of Jack as much as Jack would want Ennis to be inside of him.  (Mods: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just couldn't let this one  ??? go). 

"To belabor the point is I think to miss the point".  (courtesy of garyd). 

kathy 
 

You know, Kathy, here is the thing.
There are many who adore Stephen Schwartz but there are others who prefer Stephen Sondheim.
There are even a few who appreciate both.
In other words, while it is fun to be "POP-u-lar", it is also
 "not talk of God or the decade ahead,
that allows you to get through the worst.
It's I do and you don't and nobody said that and
who brought the subject up first."

Ya know what I mean?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 11, 2010, 06:31:00 PM
I don't know; is it that each person has his/her own opinion?  Well, that is true.

But, honestly, this subject - is it necessary at all to debate it so?  Maybe it's better that I just keep my mouth shut and my feelings for the beautiful BBM to myself.

kathy

 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on June 12, 2010, 02:27:42 AM
Certainly not graphic but hardly ambiguous unless one simply insists on making it so.


And doesn't he just love to >:D. 

(Dear (((Paul))), consider yourself hugged :-*)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:11:24 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dear ((((Sara))), hugs are always welcomed.
Much nicer than brickbats.  :) :) :)

But, back to the grindstone...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:13:21 AM
No, as frightening as I find it, you have it in the correct order.
Thanks.
But it also, rather perversely, works the other way: “To know life, Otto, you have to fuck death in the gallbladder.”
 ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:15:56 AM
While I think it is true that AP does not even allude, in any part of the SS, to oral sex, I am not sure to what this can be attributed.  ~
Tact?
Quote from: garyd
I admit it does seem odd.
Sorry—unsure of your meaning here.

In my opinion it is fairly easy to connect the dots, however.  She does have Jack compliment Ennis on his performance by concluding that it must be due to his riding skills.  This is certainly a strong implication of intercourse.
Agreed. But that’s not in the tent, it's in the Motel, where Proulx's first (and only?) use of the word “shit” indicates that something anal has occurred.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:20:23 AM
Again, what information we are given most closely fits with anal intercourse than with any other explanation.
In addition, they do wake up the following morning genital to buttock.  Nothing conclusive in that but still...
Finally,and correct me if I am wrong, "clear slick and spit" are not as important a prerequisite to oral sex as they might be to anal intercourse and we are told that Ennis enters Jack, a description that is not really normative for describing oral sex.
Despite my penchant for the Urban Dictionary, gary, I’m unfamiliar with “normative” descriptions of quite a few types of human sexual acts.
But Jack’s oral aperture could have been dry.  :D

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:20:58 AM
A very clear clue in my opinion.  Certainly not graphic but hardly ambiguous unless one simply insists on making it so.
‘Twas not meant seriously, of course.
(Hence the smiley.)

~ When all the elements are viewed as a whole, they all add up to anal intercourse.
To belabor the point, I think, is to miss the point.
No belabouring was intended.
Just some pondering some alternatives.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:34:19 AM
???    ???  I just don't "get" what the previous posts are meant to say.  What is the point in even arguing this (paul029)? 
I was unaware of any argument; I thought it was a discussion between gary and myself, an airing of our views.

Quote from: kathy
For heaven's sake, of course it's anal intercourse in the FNIT. 
Oh dear. The last thing I want to do is to exasperate anyone.
I stand rebuked.  :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:35:10 AM
And as I said before, anyway, E&J during that glorious BBM summer, during the reunion, and anywhere else during all those years they met each other, would do it any which way they can as all lovers do.  Just an example - Ennis would want to be inside of Jack as much as Jack would want Ennis to be inside of him.  (Mods: I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just couldn't let this one  ??? go).~
If I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that (by “any which way they can”) Ennis and Jack didn’t restrict themselves to only one way of doing “it?”

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 12, 2010, 03:47:38 AM
Rolling Alma over and "doesn't make too many babies" is pretty clear.  Actually one would have to stretch what little information we have to conclude anything other than anal intercourse.
Well, it could be the female version of a “rusty trombone.” 
(Thank goodness for the Urban Dictionary.)

;D ;D ;D





Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 12, 2010, 08:42:02 AM
I was unaware of any argument; I thought it was a discussion between gary and myself, an airing of our views.
Oh dear. The last thing I want to do is to exasperate anyone.
I stand rebuked.  :'( :'( :'(




a discussion between gary and yourself would be in PMs.

and kathy is right, of course it is anal sex in FNIT. 

Even tho' I'm mod I understand the joy of a good romp through the clover of possibilities and word play, but it's true this kind of discussion is confusing to others who may be visiting our site with the desire to discuss Brokeback Mountain.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 12, 2010, 07:00:26 PM
If I understand you correctly, you’re suggesting that (by “any which way they can”) Ennis and Jack didn’t restrict themselves to only one way of doing “it?”


Of course.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 12, 2010, 09:43:31 PM
Have any of you ever seen a bull entering a cow or a boar entering a sow?  Or more appropriately in this case a ram entering a ewe?   It's part A into part B and I'm sure that was Annie Proulx's mental image (male on male version) when she wrote that passage.     
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 13, 2010, 07:04:13 PM
yes Constant Reader but I'm still not sure why that is illuminating here?

We know Ennis is aware of horse-sex and bovine-sex and sheep-sex, but presumably he knows the difference between a vagina and an anus. 

Men and women can have straight sex from behind, so I'm not sure what you're saying.  Not possible for Ennis and Jack, right? 

The first time with Jack was a new experience for Ennis, I think that's the point.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 14, 2010, 08:49:51 PM
Two Thoughts: the first is that I think I am a pretty good judge of what naive 19-year-old, ill-educated males might be thinking in such a situation and secondly, I would love to know the thought process that went into Annie Proulx's writing on this subject.  As a gay male reading the words,  I find them both so right and so wrong.   But can you imagine anyone ever asking her to explain what she was thinking?  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on June 15, 2010, 01:10:47 AM
Two Thoughts: the first is that I think I am a pretty good judge of what naive 19-year-old, ill-educated males might be thinking in such a situation and secondly, I would love to know the thought process that went into Annie Proulx's writing on this subject.  As a gay male reading the words,  I find them both so right and so wrong.   But can you imagine anyone ever asking her to explain what she was thinking?  

So what is it that you find 'so wrong', CS?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 15, 2010, 10:59:08 AM
The mechanics: it ain't that easy...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on June 15, 2010, 11:10:21 AM
The mechanics: it ain't that easy...

and what do you find right?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 15, 2010, 02:13:28 PM
The setting and the circumstances.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: FoS on June 20, 2010, 08:55:42 AM
I don't know if this is the right place to post, but I can't find a better one. Please redirect me if I'm wrong.

Last night I watched the classic movie "From Here to Eternity" on cable TV.
To die for handsome Monty Clift falls in love with Donna Reed's character Loreen - who later admits that her real name is Alma!!
Is this a coincidence - or a nod from Annie to an important movie from our youth?

I know that Loreen and Lureen is not exactly the same, but as far as I could tell pronounced the same way.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on June 22, 2010, 05:30:26 AM
^^^^^^^^^
I like the idea of Loreen/Lureen and Alma being interchangeable, with the names indicating different aspects of the same personality.
Proulx could have been familiar (subconsciously if not consciously) with the film, or even the book.  :)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 22, 2010, 09:48:04 AM
It is an important film, and possibly an even more important American novel, I would be very surprised if Annie Proulx didn't take it into account, even as you say, Paul, subconsciously.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 22, 2010, 11:16:31 AM
It is an important film, and possibly an even more important American novel, I would be very surprised if Annie Proulx didn't take it into account, even as you say, Paul, subconsciously.

It might be interesting to see how, or even IF, AP would answer this question.
Loreen, Lureen, and Alma are all very common names and James Jones incorporates the names for rather obvious reasons
in his sketch of the Donna Reed  character.

Prior to the onset of WWII, many men who served in the military did so out of economic necessity.  They were victims of the Depression and the military provided, at least, food and shelter.  They were, however, not treated at all well by their superiors.  According to Jones, many who were stationed in Honolulu would "supplement' their incomes by engaging in sexual activity with older homosexual civilian men.  Maggio, the character portrayed by Frank Sinatra, is meant to represent this element.  These men did not consider themselves to be homosexual.
On the other hand, there existed a significant number of homosexuals in the military and their story is represented by the character of Bloom. Bloom recognizes his sexuality, is horrified and ashamed, not so much by his homosexual activity, but by the fact that he realizes he enjoys the sex. 
In the original manuscript of the book, which still exists, Jones goes into extended detail regarding homosexuality.  He was forced to abridge much of this information prior to publication. 


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: FoS on June 22, 2010, 02:46:00 PM
Being a European, I hope you'll forgive, that I didn't know the movie was based on a novel by James Jones.
The literary aspect makes a closer link to AP in my opinion.
But, if there is a link, then why?
I guess we'll never know ? ???

Thanks for your replies

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 22, 2010, 03:52:41 PM
It might be interesting to see how, or even IF, AP would answer this question.
Loreen, Lureen, and Alma are all very common names and James Jones incorporates the names for rather obvious reasons
in his sketch of the Donna Reed  character.

Prior to the onset of WWII, many men who served in the military did so out of economic necessity.  They were victims of the Depression and the military provided, at least, food and shelter.  They were, however, not treated at all well by their superiors.  According to Jones, many who were stationed in Honolulu would "supplement' their incomes by engaging in sexual activity with older homosexual civilian men.  Maggio, the character portrayed by Frank Sinatra, is meant to represent this element.  These men did not consider themselves to be homosexual.
On the other hand, there existed a significant number of homosexuals in the military and their story is represented by the character of Bloom. Bloom recognizes his sexuality, is horrified and ashamed, not so much by his homosexual activity, but by the fact that he realizes he enjoys the sex. 
In the original manuscript of the book, which still exists, Jones goes into extended detail regarding homosexuality.  He was forced to abridge much of this information prior to publication. 




I remember being very impressed with the book when I read it many, many years ago. I have broken up for the summer from college today, I might just see if I can get hold of a copy and have a re read. It would be interesting to see what impression it makes after a life time of experiences,
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on June 22, 2010, 05:24:51 PM
I remember being very impressed with the book when I read it many, many years ago. I have broken up for the summer from college today, I might just see if I can get hold of a copy and have a re read. It would be interesting to see what impression it makes after a life time of experiences,
Interesting idea, Jess.  I may do the same.
g
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: FoS on June 23, 2010, 11:45:54 AM

Come to think of it - Loreen is a pretty colorfull name compaired to plain old Alma - sorry all you Almas out there (my name is Peter, pretty plain itself).

When Prewitt (Monty) meets Loreen she is a hostess in a nightclub. Even in a bl/w movie thats colorful too.
When Monty by the end seeks her help because he is  badly wounded, it is in her apartment where she is not a flamboyant cocktail waitress, but herself....plain old Alma, and tells him so.

All this could fit the BBM movies two female characters. Problem is that A. Proulx did not directly describe Lureen as colorful or Alma as plain.

Bloom? No Bloom in the movie I think.
Must get the book....too.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 26, 2010, 02:56:09 PM
Just to set the record straight, Lorene in Jones's novel is a prostitute at the New Congress Hotel.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2010, 10:20:27 AM
A question was posted on Yahoo this week:

In Brokeback Mountain, one of the guys says 'Heres a stick, you might want to bite down on it'. What is the meaning behind this line?

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR (http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2010, 01:07:59 PM
Random blog found today:

---------------------------------------------

There’s very little that comes close to the wondrous, disorienting feeling we experience when emerging from a darkened movie theatre into the brutal light of a sunny day, our bodies fooled into nocturnal reflexes by the artificial darkness and, perhaps, the dream-like nature of film projection. We advance half-blind into a dangerous world rich with demands – gone is the passive anonymity of the cinema - and possibility. We adjust, feeling our way cautiously, to an environment where narrative is not pre-determined, and begin again the difficult process of writing our own life story.

Exiting a movie theatre in the morning – more so than late at night when the responsibility of debrief can be surrendered to sleep, delegated to the subconscious - is an invitation to take a cold hard look at one’s life (in light perhaps of the lives freshly depicted on screen) and remind oneself that unlike a character in a film, the screenwriter's puppet, one is largely responsible for one’s destiny.




more...

http://www.mattriviera.net/2010/06/life-in-100-films-brokeback-mountain.html (http://www.mattriviera.net/2010/06/life-in-100-films-brokeback-mountain.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: chapeaugris on June 28, 2010, 01:44:16 PM
Stepping out of the cinema that morning felt like stepping out into a new world, a world, put simply, with Brokeback Mountain in it.

This line from his article really resonated with me. I can't count the number of times I've thought of an event from my life in the past decade and tried to recall which year it occurred by asking myself, "Was that pre- or post-Brokeback?"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2010, 01:59:17 PM
I like this line:

Whatever the myths we (and the zeitgeist) create around the game-changing films we see, It can be useful to transport oneself back to that purest of moments, when we first stepped out of the theatre squinting into the sun-bleached street, and to recall these original, unadulterated feelings, the sense perhaps in which the world was rich with possibility and – inspired by a film, why not? – we could walk out into it and write our own rules.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2010, 02:48:25 PM
This is the thought that I totally agree with. I've posted about this a few times over the years, and i know not everyone agrees, but this is the way I felt and still do:


Quote
The press – the well-intentioned, liberal press – rallied around this message, appropriating Brokeback Mountain as a universal love story and rejecting notions of gay specificity. Many reviewers hastened to deride the “gay cowboys movie” description as reductive, offering, in erroneously praising the universal nature of the protagonists’ tragedy of repressed love, an even more reductive reading of the film. Reading those reviews I felt robbed of the elation I’d experienced leaving the cinema that first morning. I was deprived of the immense relief I’d felt, that finally this unique story had been gotten right without compromise or populist attempts at oversimplification.

Matt Riviera who wrote the article also posted in one of his responses:

Quote
The self-loathing of the queer closet is not common to doomed loves/lives. Saying of Ennis and Jack's that theirs is a universal tragedy ("they just happen to be men") is sending them right back inside the cinematic closet.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 28, 2010, 03:38:04 PM
Brokeback Mountain was both specific and general. Of course it was about two gay men, of course it was an overdue story that had been waiting to be told. A revelation of the truth to all people gay and straight. But it was also about mortality and love, denial and emotion, and that affected all of us.
It was not just gay people who emerged blinking back into real life with tear streaked faces wondering what had hit them.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on June 28, 2010, 04:18:44 PM
A question was posted on Yahoo this week:

In Brokeback Mountain, one of the guys says 'Heres a stick, you might want to bite down on it'. What is the meaning behind this line?

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR (http://uk.swers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100628082116AArjrTR)

**But - this line is not in the ss or film. What is  Yahoo doing by posting this "line" anyway - it's a made up line.  Are they trying to be funny or something -  or worse - derogatory about BBM?   >:( 
I just don't get it at all**.  ???   
kathy   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 28, 2010, 04:20:55 PM
**But - this line is not in the ss or film. What is  Yahoo doing by posting this "line" anyway - it's a made up line.  Are they trying to be funny or something -  or worse - derogatory about BBM?   >:( 

Yes, I think that was the intention of the person who posted the question.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on June 28, 2010, 04:45:33 PM
Stepping out of the cinema that morning felt like stepping out into a new world, a world, put simply, with Brokeback Mountain in it.

This line from his article really resonated with me. I can't count the number of times I've thought of an event from my life in the past decade and tried to recall which year it occurred by asking myself, "Was that pre- or post-Brokeback?"

I do the same. Brokeback is my frame of reference timewise nowadays.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on June 28, 2010, 04:50:15 PM
Brokeback Mountain was both specific and general. Of course it was about two gay men, of course it was an overdue story that had been waiting to be told. A revelation of the truth to all people gay and straight. But it was also about mortality and love, denial and emotion, and that affected all of us.
It was not just gay people who emerged blinking back into real life with tear streaked faces wondering what had hit them.

Well said, Jess!

Yes, specific and general, that's the unique greatness of Brokeback Mountain.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 29, 2010, 04:23:05 AM
I do so understand why our gay friends here think that finally their story had been told, and why they need to own that. But........... I'm not gay, and Brokeback Mountain hit me like a train.
It certainly opened my eyes to the lives and contribution to society made by our gay friends, and just how many gay people there were/are in all walks of life, but also there are many features of the story and the film which are universal and affect all humanity.
Maybe the ultimate legacy of the whole experience is that it brought us all together in love, friendship and support of each other.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 29, 2010, 09:59:23 AM
I do so understand why our gay friends here think that finally their story had been told, and why they need to own that. But........... I'm not gay, and Brokeback Mountain hit me like a train.
It certainly opened my eyes to the lives and contribution to society made by our gay friends, and just how many gay people there were/are in all walks of life, but also there are many features of the story and the film which are universal and affect all humanity.
Maybe the ultimate legacy of the whole experience is that it brought us all together in love, friendship and support of each other.

You Bet!

But what upsets me is when I read reviews and forum posts where people say something like "It's not a gay story, it's a love story". As if the two are mutually exclusive.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on June 29, 2010, 12:36:59 PM
I agree, and it certainly showed us straight people that love between two people of the same sex is no differerent in its essentials from love between people of different sexes. It seems to me now that I must have been incredibly stupid not to have grasped that in its entirety before, but despite knowing it, it took Brokeback to make me feel it!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: ConstantReader on June 29, 2010, 07:47:03 PM
Setting the record straight:

The word bite does not appear in the short story.

The word stick appears once: ...poking the flame with a stick...

Stick shows up in the plural once: ...tossing sticks on the fire...

Other references are:

...dirty spoon sticking out of the can..."

...checked with a horn dipstick...
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on June 29, 2010, 07:57:58 PM
Screenplay:


"I'll stick with beans"  

"We got a stick this out"

"stick close to them sheep"  (Deleted Scenes - Truck Scene)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on June 30, 2010, 03:33:42 PM
You Bet!

But what upsets me is when I read reviews and forum posts where people say something like "It's not a gay story, it's a love story". As if the two are mutually exclusive.



IMO it's a gay love story. Some of the elements in it can be generalized, some can't. Internalized homophobia e g, can not be generalized. But the result of it, in this case, can be true for other people/situations too.

That's the greatness of BBM, that despite it's specific subject matter, there are so many levels and aspects of it that the movie affects also straight people, just as hard.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 02, 2010, 01:25:55 PM
Pride Films and Plays Chicago

We are looknig for performers of all kinds to perform scenes or monologues from great gay screenplays for our benefit at Halsted/Hydrate on August 22. If you have ever wanted to perform a great movie monologue, or have a great scene up your sleeve, send an email to PrideActor@gmail.com with August in the subject line. Thanks!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 04, 2010, 08:52:16 PM
Reunion Steps in Disrepair...

Today Mouk, royandronnie and Oregondoggie made it up onto Brokeback/Moose Mountain.  they stayed awhile at the I Ain't Queer Site.  Rebuilt the cairn with the faded Ennis/Jack written on the top slab.  Someone had left a small bouquet of Alpine flowers.  Sure more than a one-shot thing we got goin here....

On a serious note, there is the matter of the deterioration of the Reunion Steps at Ft. Macleod.
Peeling paint.  Steps beginning to rot.  WHAT is happening? Seems strange given the owners' acknowledgement that there are frequent Brokeback visitors..  Could Brokeback tourists
be possibly annoying?  The owner did say they mostly don't come into his shop... not that there is a lot of photo merchandise.

Since the town of Ft. McLeod has made an obvious effort to make the streets look attractive (flowers hanging... re-adjusted curbs) perhaps they might be interested in asking him to keep the stairs presentable.  The stairs will last about one more year, in our opinion.

Perhaps the Brokeback fans could make him an offer he wouldn't refuse.  It will be a tragedy to lose the stairs.

On another note: weeds now grow where Jack first got out of his truck.  Posters are gone from both Ranchman's in Calgary and the beef jerky place in Cowley.  And of course the bus depot in Ft. McLeod is closed....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gnash on July 04, 2010, 09:22:30 PM
Screenplay:


"I'll stick with beans"  

"We got a stick this out"

"stick close to them sheep"  (Deleted Scenes - Truck Scene)

and didn't jack order sticky rice in the deleted thai restaurant scenes?  ;)



that's sad about the state of the reunion stairs. and i wonder if the locals are getting annoyed with the brokeback tourists. you never know. you'd think they'd like the legacy of the film, but seeing as it's a 'gay' story, maybe they're over it now and want to move on. they should have filmed the scene in the castro. we wouldn't have to worry about it none. i'm just glad they never filmed twilight in my neighborhood and don't have to dodge rabid team cullen fans.........  >:D

perhaps the stairs could be moved somewhere. an interior location in a movie memorabilia museum. there's a recreation of roddy mcdowell's studio city bathroom at the max factor in hollywood. there's a photo of bette davis on top of his toilet tank. she signed it, "what a dump!"

and it's too bad they can't reopen the bus station cafe... they might get famous for their apple pies, they could offer the "cassie burger" and the original "carl dog".

regarding the BBM posters being taken down (were they signed? maybe they were stolen by fans!)... i wonder how many people complained about them. you know how those vocal homophobes can be, unafraid to say what pisses them off... i understand that on the word cloud making www.wordle.net website, people (teachers) email to ask the site owner to remove the "SEXSMITH" font, because "children" use the website. ::)




Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 04, 2010, 09:45:33 PM


regarding the BBM posters being taken down (were they signed? maybe they were stolen by fans!)... i wonder how many people complained about them. you know how those vocal homophobes can be, unafraid to say what pisses them off... i understand that on the word cloud making www.wordle.net website, people (teachers) email to ask the site owner to remove the "SEXSMITH" font, because "children" use the website. ::)


A couple of years ago there was a problem with internet filters blocking sites like "Essexville, Michigan" and "Middlesex", etc.

There's a unique BBM poster in the Different Light Bookstore on Castro Street, I've never seen one like it anywhere else. It's still hanging up. You can see it as soon as you walk in the door.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 05, 2010, 03:13:53 PM
What does the poster look like?  Is it real different...I would love to see it. 
kathy   

(I'm sad to hear that any BBM posters have been taken down.  Damn!!)   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 05, 2010, 03:18:34 PM
I don't know where to post this, but I'll try here in the general discussion:

There was a post a week or two ago that stated "even AP had changed her views on the (BBM) story".
I never heard this - could someone enlighten me or direct me to the correct forum?  It must have been a misunderstanding on my part; just can't believe she would ever change her views on BBM.

kathy   ???
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on July 07, 2010, 03:46:33 PM
John, that's sad news about the stairs in Fort McLeod, and the posters.

I guess as time goes by, more and more of the movie sites will change and/or deteriorate.
I wish there was a way we could preserve them for present and future brokies.
It's such an extraordinary experience to actually be there and see them with your own eyes.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 07, 2010, 06:21:58 PM
I understand what you're saying Sonja, but realistically, what can be done?

I'm sure there are many many films who have had the locations and sets disappear.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 07, 2010, 09:38:38 PM
Maybe someone at Travel Alberta would be interested in this.


Quote
Travel Alberta is the official destination marketing organization for the province of Alberta. Funded by the Government of Alberta through the four per cent Tourism Levy on visitor accommodation,  we promote Alberta as a tourist destination regionally, nationally, and internationally to increase the number of visitors to and within Alberta


Quote
Fort Macleod, 30 minutes west of Lethbridge, provided settings for Brokeback Mountain and the new film Passchendaele, to be released in late 2008. The town of 3,000 has maintained its historic Main Street, most of which dates back to the early 20th century to complement the replica of its namesake, the 1880s-era North West Mounted Police fort.

As you drive into town, follow the signs that lead you to Main Street. You can park near the Red Coat Inn, where casts and crews for the two movies stayed, between 3rd and 4th Avenues across from IGA. We’ll start the walking tour here.

    * Walk down Main Street, turn right on Third Avenue (AKA Archie McLean Avenue), where you’ll find the Photo Plus/The Source Apartment Building. From the street, you’ll see the staircase leading to Ennis and Alma’s apartment. A poster commemorates the controversial Brokeback smooch scene.

http://www.travelalberta.com/en/ConsumerContent/Pages/Reel-Adventures-Saddles-and-Sidetrips.aspx (http://www.travelalberta.com/en/ConsumerContent/Pages/Reel-Adventures-Saddles-and-Sidetrips.aspx)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 07, 2010, 11:03:50 PM
THE IMPACT OF THE COLD WAR ON THE REPRESENTATION OF WHITE MASCULINITY IN HOLLYWOOD FILM

By
WILLIAM MICHAEL KIRKLAND

A Dissertation submitted to the Program in Interdisciplinary Humanities in partial fulfillment of the
requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy

Quote
Though many post-Cold War films such as The Manchurian Candidate challenge the traditional representation of heterosexual, white masculinity, there are two in particular that ably conclude this study. The first example is Brokeback Mountain (2005). The West and the frontier had such a great impact on American culture and had enabled Hollywood to co-opt the western genre for political purposes. It also served as the ideal place where heterosexual, white masculinity could be idealized. That masculinity, though often violent and racist, served as the model masculinity for decades. Brokeback Mountain contests the notion of how that ideal white masculinity had to also mean heterosexual masculinity. By using the western genre to contest heterosexual, white masculinity, the film artistically challenges the norm much like how Midnight Cowboy and The Electric Horseman did.


http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-12172009-214822/unrestricted/Kirkland_W_Dissertation_2010.pdf (http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-12172009-214822/unrestricted/Kirkland_W_Dissertation_2010.pdf)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 08, 2010, 12:55:43 AM

(http://taxine.com/fullerspicer/bbm0850.jpg)

alma (thinking): oh dear... i better get the
landlord out here to have a look at those stairs.


Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gnash on July 08, 2010, 01:18:26 AM
I don't know where to post this, but I'll try here in the general discussion:

There was a post a week or two ago that stated "even AP had changed her views on the (BBM) story".
I never heard this - could someone enlighten me or direct me to the correct forum?  It must have been a misunderstanding on my part; just can't believe she would ever change her views on BBM.

kathy   ???

i might be able to help you if you could direct me to your original source. i *think* i saw that post too. i think annie was just kvetching about all the madness surrounding bbm. people rewriting the story, sending her stuff, obsessing over it, plus all the references to BBM as if it's the only work she's done that counts. i think when she goes anywhere, the questions always turn to brokeback... you know, usual stuff that happens when you write something and it really stands out. in this case, it probably stood out mostly because the movie that followed her story was so fucking good. :D not saying that the short story isn't amazing, but you know how it goes. it "blows up"...

maybe it's like this: if i were a gay artist and spent years painting male nudes, and i did a female nude, and that single painting catapulted me to fame, and the image wound up on calendars and playing cards everywhere, and there were spin offs and spoofs.... and then, model that made it famous died.......  i would probably be a bit irked. ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gnash on July 08, 2010, 01:24:09 AM
I understand what you're saying Sonja, but realistically, what can be done?

I'm sure there are many many films who have had the locations and sets disappear.


most sets disappear for sure.... but not mt. rushmore, in north by northwest. ;)

what can be done? treat the stairs like the london bridge.

but the damn stairs off the owner and have them rebuilt somewhere else, like hello.... at the autry. or other movie museum. :D  i'm sure the stairs would be cheaper than the shirts!

or just build a replica? nawww..  that's alike a stuffed tiger in a museum vs. a real tiger in a zoo. :P

i can't help but think that the reunion stairs are being ruined because rabid brokie fans go there and jump up and down for joy once they realize they're in the spot where ennis and jack stood. i bet that stairway's seen 6 tons of traffic since 2006, shoooooooooo. ::)

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: AZ.bbm on July 08, 2010, 12:06:48 PM
i might be able to help you if you could direct me to your original source. i *think* i saw that post too. i think annie was just kvetching about all the madness surrounding bbm. people rewriting the story, sending her stuff, obsessing over it, plus all the references to BBM as if it's the only work she's done that counts. i think when she goes anywhere, the questions always turn to brokeback... you know, usual stuff that happens when you write something and it really stands out. in this case, it probably stood out mostly because the movie that followed her story was so fucking good. :D not saying that the short story isn't amazing, but you know how it goes. it "blows up"...


Moreover,
1)  AP expressed other regrets over writing BBM, had in fact become fed up with the resentment/slights/gratuitous condemnation that she received from some groups of Wyoming-ites, e.g., the  'upright citizens brigades,' regarding the tortured picture her work painted  about the state's denizens, particularly its ranchers... I believe she cited their 'abysmal behavior towards her as one of the factors in her decision to leave her beloved Wyoming... 

-Seems ironic to me that the person who brought the poison of  DRH to the forefront managed to get a taste of it, herself (?!)



2) Another change for AP was her attitude toward fiction writers who fall in love with their characters, which she originally thought was disgusting (don't recall the exact term she used)..  AP later recanted, admitting in an interview that she had indeed fallen hopelessly in love her own characters, with, not one, but  both BBM leads...


3)  AP never regretted writing the story, or so she says,  but later she came to regard it as a completely-closed chapter in her career, and wouldn't even consider writing a sequel/screenplay, not for love or money.. -She told Charlie Rose (?) that the whole process was just too hard on her and she felt she needed to leave BBM and move on... She wasn't a screenplay artist or a director (-what if she was? -- would that have made any difference?)...


4) There were other factors, too, I can't recall them at the moment...


Quote
maybe it's like this: if i were a gay artist and spent years painting male nudes, and i did a female nude, and that single painting catapulted me to fame, and the image wound up on calendars and playing cards everywhere, and there were spin offs and spoofs.... and then, model that made it famous died.......  i would probably be a bit irked. ;D

-Good analogy!   8)



Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on July 08, 2010, 01:28:31 PM
  There should be a "Save the Stairs" campaign amongst Brokies.  I mean, how much could this cost, especially if some volunteered to salvage and store them, until there was a rightful permanent home?
  I think it should be two-fold:  cart off the original stairs, dis-assembled, and then treated for wood rot and stored; rebuild with replacement stairs, free of charge to the owner, for later tourists.
  There are more than a few Brokies who live within 500 miles of that site, from the different forums, and, unless am totally witless, a project of that kind could be under $3,000, if care were taken to keep costs down.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: atticusdad on July 08, 2010, 02:21:57 PM
  There should be a "Save the Stairs" campaign amongst Brokies. 

I ran across a campaign to save the stairs in another website:

http://bbmfoundation.org/forum/index.php?topic=174.msg2772#msg2772 (http://bbmfoundation.org/forum/index.php?topic=174.msg2772#msg2772)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on July 08, 2010, 02:54:46 PM
I understand what you're saying Sonja, but realistically, what can be done?

I'm sure there are many many films who have had the locations and sets disappear.

I know.....

But to us, BBM is not like any other film, so I still wish something could be done.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on July 08, 2010, 03:21:26 PM
I don't think the stairs should be taken somewhere else and replaced.

They should be preserved for damage to the wood, and stay right where they are!

The experience of seeing them where they belong, both sets of stairs, the laundromat wall, the door, the parking lot, can never be the same in a different place. It's not just the stairs, it's the whole building and its surroundings!!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 08, 2010, 07:58:21 PM
 :) Hello to gnash (reply #83 today) and AZ (reply #85 today):

Thank you both for your answers to my question/post on July 5th regarding whether AP had "changed" her views on BBM.   Your replies are so enlightening and informative, and I agree with both of them wholeheartedly.  As a matter of fact, you brought back to me statements that I remember Annie saying.   

(No matter how hard I try, I cannot remember where I saw the "original source" post).

Thx again,
kathy   :)   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: AZ.bbm on July 09, 2010, 01:54:43 PM
^^^
You're welcome, kathy, and 'Thank you,' too...!

If you have the time you'll find some really fascinating insights about AP posted here on the Forum on her namesake thread: "ARTS & ENTERTAINMENT/Books, Periodicals & Literature/Annie Proulx (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=629.msg214#msg214)."


<XXX!!>
-Stan
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 09, 2010, 08:35:54 PM
 :)  Hi Stan --
Thank you and you are very welcome too!  It's so kind of you. 
I think I did read the link you posted re AP, but I'm going to look it up again.

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 11, 2010, 10:11:20 AM
Re: the stairs and other filming sites.
We're talking about other people's property here....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on July 11, 2010, 11:35:12 AM
  Doodler, that is understood.  Any projects or plans would have to be accepted by the owners, and the way to make that more likely would be to offer a good deal.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 11, 2010, 12:08:01 PM
The 'Somewhere In Time" fans put up a plaque on Mackinaw Island years ago.

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/6c80cf4d-13a2-4351-9254-2b7e131d12d.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 11, 2010, 12:09:07 PM
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/DSC00465.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on July 11, 2010, 12:55:38 PM
Neat! Next time I'm on Mackinac Island, I'll have to look that up!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 11, 2010, 01:03:18 PM
Neat! Next time I'm on Mackinac Island, I'll have to look that up!



You should check with the concierge at the Grand Hotel for the exact location.


Time and Tenderness - an article about the Somewhere in Time Weekend
Reprinted from "Traverse" Magazine, October 2002

Quote
Ever since the movie Somewhere in Time was filmed here 23 years ago, Grand Hotel and Mackinac Island have become a destination for fans of the movie—they come like pilgrims to relive the story of a man who falls in love with a woman in an old photo and travels back in time to find her. And for the past 12 years, the last weekend of the Grand's season has been reserved as a peculiar kind of homecoming for hundreds—cast, crew and fans alike—to gather and pay homage to the film that made them believe in the kind of love that has no boundaries.

Old friends reconnect; new attendees gawk. Finally, with a buzz of excitement, the guests leave the dining room and head to the hotel theater. We file in toward the seats past a collection of movie posters that read "Beyond fantasy. Beyond Obsession. Beyond Time itself...He will find her." It’s a film these people know by heart, and one Grand Hotel has been showing once or twice a week for the last two decades, but that doesn't lessen the thrill of tonight's screening, and especially tonight, for the movie will be illuminated on a bigger screen than most have ever viewed the object of their appreciation. The whispered greetings and rustling dresses quiet, and as the opening credits roll, spontaneous applause breaks out.

http://www.somewhereintime.tv/article1.htm (http://www.somewhereintime.tv/article1.htm)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 11, 2010, 01:41:16 PM
Maybe Larry or someone could approach the Browns to see if something could be done about the stairs. It's possible that they just can't afford it right now. Cindy Brown has said that they don't mind the fans visiting all the time.

There might also be a way to partner up with other organizations.

The building is the J.C. Edgar Building in Fort MacLeod.



Fort Macleod has preserved its many historic buildings

Quote
A walk through the community reveals a look at the architecture and character of Fort Macleod, and Alberta, at the turn of the century. The historic buildings in Fort Macleod were restored and preserved through the Main Street Program, an initiative funded by the provincial government in 1984.

   “The people in the community over the generations were wise enough to realize what they have, and they have taken care of it,” Mayor Shawn Patience said. “We take more pride in the restoration of an old building than we do in the construction of a new one.”

Quote
 At the corner of Main Street and Third Avenue, you can see two other historic buildings. To the north on Third Avenue is the J.C. Edgar Building, built in 1906 and now home to Photo Plus

http://www.fortmacleodgazette.com/Visitors%20Guide/visitors_guide7.htm (http://www.fortmacleodgazette.com/Visitors%20Guide/visitors_guide7.htm)

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/Brown02.jpg)
picture stolen from FindingBrokeback.com  ;D

http://findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Brown/Brown.html (http://findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Brown/Brown.html)


As always, for Brokeback production and travel information, visit FindingBrokeback.com (http://FindingBrokeback.com)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 11, 2010, 02:07:12 PM
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/P010028fL.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 11, 2010, 05:18:03 PM
Here's a pic of the front of the building in 1985.

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/ChineseLaundry.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on July 12, 2010, 05:42:41 AM
It would be in the interest of the whole town to repair the stairs, if people come from far and wide to see them, then they are probably using hotel rooms, buying food and drink, etc. in other words bringing in business and increasing the prosperity of the town.
Has anyone from the forum contacted the town council about this?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 15, 2010, 02:21:49 PM
A Conversation with Rodrigo Prieto

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls)

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs)

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk)

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8)

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ)

Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on July 16, 2010, 04:57:54 PM
A Conversation with Rodrigo Prieto

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2ADjFEjls)

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_685YKIBRxs)

Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQpjSL0NCk)

Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCmIU47iJB8)

Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWKuEhOEHhQ)

Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGEJF0dkbI)


I'm too lazy tired to watch them all.

Can someone tell me in which one he talks about Brokeback?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 16, 2010, 05:21:42 PM
Watch the end of # 1, all of #2, and the beginning of #3  ^^^

Or just watch 1,2, and 3
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on July 17, 2010, 05:36:50 PM
^^^^^^^^^

Ok. Thanks.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on July 25, 2010, 02:57:03 AM
http://www.altfg.com/blog/movie/splice-brokeback-mountain-audience-reactions/
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 26, 2010, 10:42:47 PM
I found an interesting comment about Brokeback in a review of another movie:

Quote
In the final scene of the much-praised Brokeback Mountain, Ennis Del Mar (Heath Ledger) visits the parents of the man he loved, who has recently died. To emphasize how poor they are, the film shows a home with completely bare walls.

I understand what the author is trying to say, but I seem to remember several items hanging on the walls of the Twist home.

http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624 (http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on July 27, 2010, 09:54:45 AM
And, honestly, that doesn't reflect poverty. The only thing on MY walls are calendars in the kitchen and bathroom. Oh, and smoke detectors.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 27, 2010, 03:28:34 PM
I found an interesting comment about Brokeback in a review of another movie:

I understand what the author is trying to say, but I seem to remember several items hanging on the walls of the Twist home.

http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624 (http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=8624)

**I don't remember the walls of the Twist home being completely bare either.  There are a few things on them.**
How dare this Vineberg say "this is nonsense"?   Who the devil is he? 
So-called critics and/or journalists (?) just go further & further down in my book, which they have been doing for a very long, long time.

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on July 28, 2010, 09:58:43 AM
I've watched the film about 105 times, but only once or twice in the past year.

It's so easy to stop after SNIT or the reunion trip.

And as SNIT fades out, I always close my eyes.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 28, 2010, 10:05:27 AM
I haven't seen the film since August 2008, but I have it memorized.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on July 28, 2010, 11:17:15 AM
Good point.  It was the third film I'd memorized.  First was Wizard of Oz, second was Music Man.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on July 28, 2010, 07:12:37 PM
I last saw it in Boston with Brokies.  I suspect I'll see it again in December with Brokies.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 28, 2010, 10:17:36 PM
I am thinking so much of our wonderful film BBM.  How beautifully done, Heath, Jake, E&J - everything.    
It is the 3rd film I've memorized.  The first is Gone With the Wind; the second is Lawrence of Arabia.  I love them.

They all effected me very much, but I have never been effected so completely by a film as I was by BBM.   Like being hit on the head with a wallop.  That beautiful, lovely, sad film.  I watched it again about a month ago; I love watching it.  

kathy  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on July 29, 2010, 06:06:45 AM
I last saw it in Boston with Brokies.  I suspect I'll see it again in December with Brokies.

The last time I saw the film was at Andy's last year. I would love to see it again at the cinema with Brokies.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on July 29, 2010, 04:04:22 PM
I last saw it this May in Seattle with Brokies.

And before that last July in Alberta, also with Brokies.

I have no idea when the next time will be. Would love to go to LA in December.... :(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on July 30, 2010, 07:13:59 PM
Library of Inspiration: Brokeback Mountain


Quote
Annie Proulx knew exactly what she was doing in setting this story of forbidden love amidst the embrace of nature, far away from the eyes. Here, in a place not yet stained by the commotion and smog of city streets or the regurgitation of consumption, right or wrong has a way of defining itself. Everything is truth. The truth of the sun and stars and the miles of uninterrupted green. The thump of a lonely heart.



Quote
Ennis: If you can’t fix it, Jack, you gotta stand it.

To live with the knowledge that life is precious and short is a tricky enough proposal. But to then be reduced to just trying to endure it, to just stand it….

Regrets are in the ashes that are raining down forever; Forever, a fresh blanket of sadness that is always beyond words.

Full article here:



http://www.libraryofinspiration.com/film_2000s_brokebackmountain.htm (http://www.libraryofinspiration.com/film_2000s_brokebackmountain.htm)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on July 30, 2010, 09:20:11 PM
To bcj  --

**Thank you for reporting this article about BBM.  Library of Inspiration.  It is wonderful, and truly had me in tears. A short article containing so much truth and insight.  
 
"Forever: A fresh blanket of sadness that is always beyond words".
Ennis & Jack.  Such a tragedy.**

kathy  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 03, 2010, 06:39:01 PM
Article in the Trinity English Review

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/Trinity.jpg)


(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/Image1-2.jpg)


http://www.trinity-school.org/_files/misc/100C1A77BC3600E79A3D380E30275D38.pdf (http://www.trinity-school.org/_files/misc/100C1A77BC3600E79A3D380E30275D38.pdf)


Trinity School is part of the Whitgift Foundation, founded in 1596 by John Whitgift, Archbishop of Canterbury. His legacy provides the School with outstanding facilities and an exceptionally extensive range of bursaries and scholarships, allowing pupils from a wide variety of backgrounds to benefit from an education at Trinity. It also established the Christian foundation on which the School is built.Today,Trinity warmly welcomes those of all faiths and none, although Christian values still inform and underpin all we do.

We value each pupil as a unique individual and work to ensure that all relationships in the School are based on mutual respect. We expect high standards of behaviour, founded on personal responsibility and self-discipline combined with genuine concern and compassion for others.

The outstanding pastoral care offered at Trinity means all pupils will receive carefully considered advice at every stage of their school career, tailored to their individual needs and circumstances. All students have a Tutor who they will see at least twice a day, who will listen, advise and help them to make and understand their own choice

http://www.trinity-school.org/page/?title=About+Us&pid=11 (http://www.trinity-school.org/page/?title=About+Us&pid=11)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on August 04, 2010, 07:51:20 AM
Not only is that an interesting article, John, it also allows me to tell you that the house my youngest daughter and her fiance are renting at present, backs onto the Whitgift School. I imagine it is quite expensive to attend, but it does look very good.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on August 06, 2010, 02:36:47 AM
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-rutten-20100805,0,5567199.story

His description of walking Hollywood Boulevard alone after winning the Oscar for "Brokeback Mountain" is the book's climax and highlight.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: modern on August 06, 2010, 03:48:19 AM
i like to bbm better then text. if every one had bbm the world would be a better place. :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Lyle (Mooska) on August 06, 2010, 02:53:24 PM
i like to bbm better then text. if every one had bbm the world would be a better place. :)

    :)

Welcome "modern"!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on August 06, 2010, 08:13:22 PM
 :)  Hi - I really don't know the proper forum to post this, so I'll try BBM general discussion 2. 

Is anyone aware of how one could obtain the original BBM screenplay?  Or drafts of the BBM screenplay?  I've read that there are several leading up to the final draft by the writers, even the one the director uses, and a version showing any changes while filming, by the actors.

Can any member lead me in the right direction? 

Thank you,
kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on August 06, 2010, 08:40:10 PM
Please check your PM's, Kathy.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on August 07, 2010, 04:56:50 PM
Will do!!

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on August 07, 2010, 05:02:21 PM
CONGRATS BBM-M, KATHY!!!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on August 07, 2010, 05:05:53 PM

Oh, thank you so much, fritzkep!!  I'm so pleased.

kathy   ;D 

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on August 07, 2010, 05:41:35 PM
You're welcome! And just plain old Fritz will be fine!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on August 07, 2010, 06:29:57 PM
You bet, Fritz!  (I was wondering if I could call you this myself...oh, well, great minds...)

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 16, 2010, 04:43:49 PM
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/BBMito.jpg)


The American Society for Cell Biology, based in Bethesda, Md., is using this postcard to entice scientists to send in cell-biology-related videos to its annual convention this winter, as well as to encourage journalists to cover it.



http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-08/mass-mailer-day (http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-08/mass-mailer-day)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on August 16, 2010, 05:38:54 PM
Cytologists are such a zany bunch.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 16, 2010, 06:03:05 PM
Jack Twist... Jack Asty! (amplified spermatogenic transcripts Y-encoded)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on August 18, 2010, 04:20:27 PM
That's way cool John!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 25, 2010, 11:36:06 PM
August 24 was Diana Ossana's birthday.

I sent her a little greeting card

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/39909_429484933902_800268902_4849461_8258077_n.jpg)
Happy Birthday Diana from your Brokeback Forum Fans!!

Diana sent a reply to us:



Diana Ossana :
You're the reason we made this film...thank you, thank you, thank you.
All good things,
Diana
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 26, 2010, 01:00:23 PM
Call for Papers
“Queer Love”
2010 Film & History Conference: Representations of Love in Film and Television
November 11–14, 2010
Hyatt Regency Milwaukee
www.uwosh.edu/filmandhistory

Final Deadline: September 15, 2010

AREA: Queer Love

Not so many years ago, a kiss between two men or two women on television or in a Hollywood movie was shocking, but images of two people of the same sex loving each other—in groundbreaking television shows such as Queer as Folk and The L Word and movies such as Brokeback Mountain and Milk—are gradually becoming a more visible part of the cinematic landscape. The real life love stories of same-sex couples are also becoming more visible. And with same-sex marriage now legal or being actively debated in many states within the U.S. and in many countries around the world, now seems a good moment to take a critical look at how gay and lesbian love has been represented in film and television history.

This area, comprising multiple panels, welcomes papers that investigate the idea of “queer love,” broadly speaking. How have representations of homosexual romantic and sexual relationships changed over the years? What is the relationship between representation of gay and lesbian romantic and sexual stories in popular film and television, and attitudes toward gay and lesbian individuals and the LGBT community in general? In other words, is there a relationship between representation and social change?  What is the relationship between same-sex love stories and heterosexual love stories? Has the broader acceptance of gay and lesbian stories in all forms of media and society altered the nature of the love story more generally? In other words, what would it mean to say that the love story has been “queered”?

Papers might take any of a number of approaches—aesthetic or textual, historical, philosophical, cultural, psychoanalytic, semiotic, post-structural, post-colonial, gender or—of course—queer. Topics might include, but are not limited to the following:

•   The legacy of Brokeback Mountain
•   The representation of same-sex love and romance in film and/or television history
•   The representation of gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender sex in film and/or television history
•   Homosexual love in world cinema traditions
•   Love, sex, and romance in television shows featuring gay or lesbian characters (e.g., Queer as Folk, The L Word, Will and Grace)
•   Same-sex romantic subplots in television shows not primarily focused on gay or lesbian characters (e.g., Ugly Betty, Glee)
•   Gay and lesbian love, sex, and romance in reality television
•   Queer theory, love, and film
•   Queer love, television, and politics
•   Homoerotic subtexts in heterosexual love stories
•   Queer love and genre: comedy, drama, sci fi, and more
•   Fan love – audience response to television and movie characters/actors
•   Straight viewers who love queer characters
•   TV and film characters in fanfiction – gay and lesbian romance and slash fiction

Please send 200-word paper proposals to the area chair:
Pamela Demory, Ph.D.
University Writing Program
University of California, Davis
Davis, CA 95616
Email: phdemory@ucdavis.edu (email submissions preferred)

Panel proposals for up to four presenters are also welcome, but each presenter must submit his or her own paper proposal. For updates and registration information about the upcoming meeting, see the Film & History website (www.uwosh.edu/filmandhistory).



Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on August 26, 2010, 08:51:26 PM
I think Diana's reply to her birthday card is wonderful.

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: lislis on August 27, 2010, 01:56:10 AM
http://www.courierpostonline.com/article/20100827/NEWS01/8270344/Real-life-cowboys-offered-hope-to-young-man-growing-up-gay-in-America

Bud owned a cattle ranch. Manuel was his foreman.
They built barbed-wire fences and rode the range together on horseback.
They also shared a bed.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on August 30, 2010, 04:47:30 PM
Ask the Flying Monkey

Q: My dad blew me away five minutes ago telling me that Undertow is now in movie theaters and that we should go watch it next week. We are talking very conservative parents here. In fact, I don't know if he's planning to bring my mom along or if he's planning to sneak away. Believe it or not, my mom has a bigger problem with my being gay than my dad. I've read the review of the film at AfterElton.com, so I want to watch it. The problem is, I don't want to take my parents to a movie that may portray gay men in a negative way in the eyes of conservative people. I don't want any spoilers, but should I take my parents to this movie? Is the movie so moving that they will see past the infidelity issue? And yes, I totally had an unforseen "Kurt Hummel's dad" moment with my very own father. I still can't believe it! – Carlos, Lima, Peru

A: That’s fantastic! I’m so happy for you. (But my mom also had a much more difficult time with my being gay than my dad. Sometimes I wonder how accurate those parental stereotypes are.)

The characters in Undertow are definitely not perfect: one character does have a wife, and he willfully lies to her, despite the fact that they have a small child together (FYI, there’s also a semi-explicit sex scene).


But that’s precisely the point of the movie: anti-gay prejudice makes people act in terrible, hurtful ways. We see the consequences of the closet, not just from the main character’s point-of-view, but also from his wife’s.

I found the movie incredibly moving, and it’s hard for me to understand how anyone could judge this character too harshly, giving the pressure he’s under. That said, plenty of people judged the characters in Brokeback Mountain harshly for “cheating” on their wives, so I guess people see what they want to see. I have a feeling I know what Dr. Laura thought.


Comments:

Quote
Posted by T (1814 points) (368 posts)on August 30, 2010 at 01:33pm
I disagree very VERY strongly about Brokeback Mountain. The two male characters ARE cheating on their wives, why the quote mark? Just because they were cheating with another man does not mean it was not cheating. And they SHOULD be judged very harshly by that. The movie to me was not just about Ennis and Jack`s "love" story, also very much about the horrible things they put their wives through. What they did was NOT right.



Quote
Posted by
Brent Hartinger (345 points) (1867 posts)on August 30, 2010 at 01:56pm
I'm not trying to give a cliched "blame society" answer here, but when you put those characters in the context of their lives -- where, the movie says very clearly they may very well be KILLED if they're openly gay -- it's not as simple as saying, "They're cheating on their wives." It's much more complicated than that. I'm not saying, "Yes! Go cheat! There's nothing wrong with cheating!" But I'm saying that it is impossible to single out those actions without providing the context of a society that was literally making them insane criminals. I'm sure there were African Americans who did "inappropriate" things to survive in the times of slavery and Jim Crow, and Jewish people did similar things during the Holocaust. But given the historical context, it's impossible for me to make a moral judgment about those actions.
 

Basically, Jack and Ennis wives got screwed, but I put most of the blame on an incredibly -- I mean, INCREDIBLY -- bigoted society. And I think that's the point of the movie: not that Jack and Ennis were bad, immoral people, but that bigotry screws up everyone's life


Quote
Posted by DaisyViolet (1058 points) (212 posts)on August 30, 2010 at 02:15pm
This is why I feel that Brokeback Mountain is important and also useful in the fight against bigotry. I had more than one person say 'What they did to their families was terrible!' which I agreed, but then went on to point out that they hurt their wives and kids not because they were gay, but because the bigots made the world such a place that they, or at least Ennis, felt they couldn't just be honest and be together. So basically you, homophobe, are the villain of this piece.  This is what your hatred does. Destroys families and kills people. It was eye-opening, at least to the people I spoke with.  It's like when one of the arguments about gay people having children is 'They'll be bullied and teased!" to which I have to say 'Then teach your kid not to be such a bully!"  It's good for these people to see what their actions do (if they're willing to see, that is).   


http://www.afterelton.com/askmonkey/08-30-2010?page=0,2 (http://www.afterelton.com/askmonkey/08-30-2010?page=0,2)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on August 30, 2010, 09:07:53 PM
**Well, I have just a couple of comments re the above three quotes, bcj.

In the three "quotes" section -- Brent's and Daisy's posts are very good.

But the first quote from "T" I angers me immensely.  Isn't is so obvious when someone like this, who never saw BBM, actually "judges" the characters?  "THE HORRIBLE THINGS THEY DID TO THEIR WIVES" he shouts in such anti-BBM rhetoric.  
Well, whoever you are, "T", you know absolutely nothing of this great film, the sad story of Ennis & Jack, the fact Ennis eventually divorced, the unhappiness of their being apart - you know nothing .  

p.s.  Why don't you just keep your anti-BBM homophobic comments to yourself?  They don't have to be posted.  Don't use the wives or a very high moral tone (so evident here) as an excuse for your views; they come through loud and clear.  Whew, I pity anyone judged by you - or is this reserved just for strident BBM dislike?**

kathy   >:(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on August 30, 2010, 10:18:31 PM
Kathy:
I do not know "T" and I am probably not missing much.  However, there is no evidence in the quoted response that "T" has not seen BBM. 
Furthermore, it is true that both Jack and Ennis "cheat" on their wives.  There may be extenuating circumstances which contribute to that "cheating" but it is  "cheating" none the less.
The tragedy of the story, in my opinion, touches not just Jack and Ennis but also their wives and children. 
BBM is an excellent piece of writing and a very fine film and it is also much more than just a "sad" story about two guys who are unable to construct a life with one another. 
Neither Jack nor Ennis are saints and free of sin.  They are simply two human beings caught in a situation they are not equipped to either understand or control.  This, however, does not abate their responsibility to refuse to live a lie.  What would the world be like if we all acquiesced to that which we felt could not be changed?
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on August 31, 2010, 10:07:00 AM
I don't think it's homophobic to recognise that the wives were badly done to.  I think it's part of the story. 

In Ennis's case, I think he was genuinely unaware that he was cheating - partly because he avoided thinking too much about what exactly his relationship with Jack was.  Surprisingly, when Alma divorces him, he feels "short-changed", as if she didn't give him enough, rather than the other way around.    We know that's not the case, but Ennis seems to think of himself as the wronged party.  He doesn't have a clue.  From Alma's point of view though, she must have felt cheated on.  Ennis also refused to get a better job (he needed jobs he could drop to be with Jack), refused to go on family vacations, etc.    I do think she got a raw deal.

For Lureen, it must have been worse. 

I don't think they should be judged harshly, because we're given the reasons why they cheated in the story.   They didn't really have a lot of choices open to them.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 13, 2010, 03:08:25 PM
Box Office History for Distributor - Focus Features


RankMovieRelease DateTotal GrossInflation-Adjusted Gross
1Brokeback Mountain (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/BRKMT.php)12/9/2005$83,043,761 $95,445,465
2Coraline (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/CORLN.php)2/6/2009$75,286,229 $75,286,230
3Burn After Reading (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/BAFRD.php)9/12/2008$60,355,347 $63,045,278
4Lost in Translation (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2003/LSTNT.php)9/12/2003$44,585,453 $54,962,423
5The Strangers (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/STRNG.php)5/30/2008$52,597,610 $54,941,790
6Atonement (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/ATONE.php)12/7/2007$50,980,159 $53,844,428
7Pride and Prejudice (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/PRDPJ.php)11/11/2005$38,372,662 $44,791,410
8Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2004/ETSUN.php)3/19/2004$34,366,518 $41,505,458
9The Pianist (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2002/PIANI.php)12/27/2002$32,519,322 $40,453,665
10The Constant Gardener (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/GRDNR.php)8/31/2005$33,579,798 $39,273,060
11Balls of Fury (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/BFURY.php)8/29/2007$32,886,940 $35,850,585
12Milk (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/HMILK.php)11/26/2008$31,841,299 $32,606,003
139 (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2009/9NINE.php)9/9/2009$31,749,894 $31,749,893
14Billy Elliot (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2000/BILLE.php)10/13/2000$21,995,263 $30,279,548
15Hot Fuzz (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/HTFUZ.php)4/20/2007$23,618,786 $25,747,223
16Deliver Us From Eva (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2003/DLVUS.php)2/7/2003$17,573,594 $21,857,708
17Far From Heaven (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2002/FARFH.php)11/8/2002$15,901,849 $20,251,665
18The Motorcycle Diaries (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2004/MCDIA.php)9/24/2004$16,756,372 $20,198,295
1921 Grams (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2003/21GMS.php)11/21/2003$16,248,701 $19,886,213
20Vanity Fair (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2004/VFAIR.php)9/1/2004$16,123,851 $19,473,248
21The Kids Are All Right (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2010/TKAAR.php)7/9/2010$19,891,258 $18,884,108
22The American (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2010/AVPGM.php)9/1/2010$19,806,118 $18,803,280
23Eastern Promises (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/EASTP.php)9/14/2007$17,144,882 $18,729,578
24The Hitcher (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2007/HTCHR.php)1/19/2007$16,379,582 $17,855,648
25Hollywoodland (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2006/HWLND.php)9/8/2006$14,426,251 $16,518,608


http://www.the-numbers.com/market/Distributors/FocusFeatures.php (http://www.the-numbers.com/market/Distributors/FocusFeatures.php)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on September 13, 2010, 08:00:06 PM
Thx, bcj. 
I always knew Brokeback Mountain was their #1 of all time.  It just had to be.

kathy   :)
p.s.  Look at the difference in millions between BBM and the others - wow!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on September 18, 2010, 09:31:53 PM
**I'm sitting here thinking how way beyond great Heath & Jake are in BBM.  Definitely would not be the same w/o them.  The chemistry between them is electric.  We see/feel it.  No matter how many times I watch and weep, I am amazed at the great performances AL brought out of them and amazed at the beauty of this extraordinary film.  Everything came together to make it perfect. 

Thinking how much I'd love to see them together again.**     

kathy
feeling a bit sad today... 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 18, 2010, 10:48:38 PM
Got save you lordilingis!
Which that now here be;
But as for the, brokeback shereve,
Evil mote thou the!

...Geoffrey Chaucer, The Coke's Tale of Gamelyn, 1810
--------------------------------------------------------------

‎"and almost destroyed; his polished forehead shone as though a purple light gleamed under the skin; his sickle-curved posture made him look as though his back were broken: a sad little brokeback dwarf crippled with age."

Other Voices, Other Rooms - Truman Capote, 1949
--------------------------------------------------------------

Bentback: "How did your Victory Garden turn out?"

Brokeback: "In Defeat for me and complete victory for the weeds and insects!"

The Progressive Grocer, Volume 22 - 1943
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brokeback - Seng. 16956. fruits poison violent.

Ressources Vegetales des Colonies Françaises

Gustavo Neiderlein, France, 1902

------------------------------------------------------------------

 ‎"What you doing here brokeback? What's that stinking brokeback doing here , Rena?" p. 23

"Well, if it ain't the little brokeback stinking up the park." p. 35

"Damn it, you stinking brokeback. Eat dirt." p. 37
...
Hart, Lee Veillon, 1974
--------------------------------------------------------------

"Some are brokeback fables and some are bastard reportage and some are pretexts for the pleasure of cutting up..."

Donald Barthelme's Fiction: The Ironist Saved From Drowning

University of Missouri Press, 1982

--------------------------------------------------------------

 ‎"Brokeback Cave"
10 SW Gatesville
Texas Journal of Science, Vol 20, 1967
--------------------------------------------------------------

"The Palace" and "The Dragon" are "brokeback fables," the first on the haves and the have-nots and the second on the conservation of endangered species, including men.

Masterplots Annual, 1975
--------------------------------------------------------------

Hart, the "brokeback," is one of the pale, ageless, back-alley inhabitants of New Orleans. What Hart likes best are balloons, bright helium-filled rounds of color he buys from the proceeds of his "antique business,"

New Times Communications Corp., 1974
--------------------------------------------------------------

... through the double rope of the wind's eye where you let me fly you: bound lame in a forest of lost keys I'll travel, paper baby and a brokeback flier, taped out on the doorstep and fixed for certain...

Under 30: fiction, poetry and criticism of the new American writers
Indiana University Press, 1970

--------------------------------------------------------------

 ‎"The plant causes a paralytic condition in man called "Brokeback"

Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology, 1966
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Popham is, on the whole, as much a southern institution as Old Granddad or Turner Catledge. Virginia-born and yard-raised in a career-Marine family, he speaks that bent Tidewater accent with the brokeback "about."

New South, Volume 22 1967
--------------------------------------------------------------

These substances are present in certain South African plants, are poisonous to cattle that graze upon these plants, and produce a paralytic state in man known as "brokeback."

Comparative Biochemistry: Cells and organisms - 1964
--------------------------------------------------------------

They also isolated in small amounts, a long chain fluoro- fatty acid with 16 to 18 carbon atoms, one fluorine and one double bond. Fluoroacetate was present only in traces. The plant causes a paralytic condition in man called "brokeback"

Pharmacology of fluorides: Volume 20, Part 1 1970
--------------------------------------------------------------

Brokeback hills hug within themselves, scrunched in from that softer line coating the strands of a cloud's shelving. The whole forms on the sun, scratches of orange stain the sky— an invalid eye leaking the day.

Chapman Magazine, 1983
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on September 19, 2010, 06:00:06 PM
Box Office History for Distributor - Focus Features


RankMovieRelease DateTotal GrossInflation-Adjusted Gross
1Brokeback Mountain (http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/BRKMT.php)12/9/2005$83,043,761 $95,445,465


Very cool!!!  Thanks John!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: foreverinawe on September 20, 2010, 07:38:04 PM
Guess this is as close as we come to a Shameless Self-promoting thread. I've been busy polishing up some ragged videos, and I now have them on my YouTube channel. For a change, they're all in one place. Of course there are only three, but that just shows how disorganized I was. Oh well...

I made BBM Symbols and Interpretations several years ago, but it was too long to fit on YouTube. In the past I offered it on YouSendIt, but they would only deliver it for one week, then delete it. I never thought many people saw it, which was the main reason I wanted to put it on YouTube. I hated the idea of cutting it in two, but time has weakened me, and at long last I did it.

So here's a link to my YT Channel, from which you may watch

BBM S&I Part 1
BBM S&I Part 2
Brokeback Dream

http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1)

Shameless, I know. Slow weekend.

   ~~~fia
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 20, 2010, 09:11:34 PM
Very nice videos FIA!

I never saw S&I before. Well done.

However, I strongly disagree about the metaphor of the closet. The closet is used an element in the film too often to be coincidental.

I wish I had a nice voice like you. Nobody ever listens to me for more than a few seconds.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: foreverinawe on September 20, 2010, 09:42:10 PM
Very nice videos FIA!

Thanks, John

Quote
However, I strongly disagree about the metaphor of the closet. The closet is used an element in the film too often to be coincidental.

It disappoints me. Remember the recent TOTW (I think) discussion about Ang Lee scrapping the Mechanics scene? He thought it was overkill (poor choice of words), thought it was hitting the audience over the head with the obvious. I don't need to be told the boys were closeted. *klunk* On the other hand, there really wasn't a more logical place for the shirts.

Quote
I wish I had a nice voice like you.

Thanks again. Tol'ya I was shameless.  ;D

    ~~~fia
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 20, 2010, 10:07:06 PM
On the other hand, there really wasn't a more logical place for the shirts.


I don't know about that. I'm thinking of getting a shadowbox frame for mine  ;D

(http://baycityforums.com/images/lastscan.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on September 21, 2010, 04:10:58 PM
                     To fia --

As usual, your videos are so touching and beautiful.
Your very insightful posts, which I love to read, (and these videos) bring on the tears.

kathy  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on September 21, 2010, 05:27:36 PM
Watching them now, fia. Magnificent. Thank you.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: foreverinawe on September 22, 2010, 04:25:10 AM
Thanks Kathy

Thanks Fritz

   ~~~fia
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on September 22, 2010, 04:33:48 PM
You are more than welcome, fia.

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on September 24, 2010, 03:57:07 PM
Guess this is as close as we come to a Shameless Self-promoting thread. I've been busy polishing up some ragged videos, and I now have them on my YouTube channel. For a change, they're all in one place. Of course there are only three, but that just shows how disorganized I was. Oh well...

I made BBM Symbols and Interpretations several years ago, but it was too long to fit on YouTube. In the past I offered it on YouSendIt, but they would only deliver it for one week, then delete it. I never thought many people saw it, which was the main reason I wanted to put it on YouTube. I hated the idea of cutting it in two, but time has weakened me, and at long last I did it.

So here's a link to my YT Channel, from which you may watch

BBM S&I Part 1
BBM S&I Part 2
Brokeback Dream

http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1 (http://www.youtube.com/user/foreverinawe1)

Shameless, I know. Slow weekend.

   ~~~fia


Thanks fia!

That video of yours - Brokeback Dream - is one of my all time favourite BBM videos!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on September 24, 2010, 04:02:13 PM

I wish I had a nice voice like you. Nobody ever listens to me for more than a few seconds.

Um.... maybe you should try actually saying something that lasts more than a few seconds....  ::)






 :-*
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 24, 2010, 04:09:08 PM
Um.... maybe you should try actually saying something that lasts more than a few seconds....  ::)

I used to do that but nobody listened so I don't even bother any more.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on September 24, 2010, 04:26:57 PM
I used to do that but nobody listened so I don't even bother any more.


Their loss.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on September 27, 2010, 10:16:48 PM
Barstow library observes banned books week

BARSTOW • What do books like “Huckleberry Finn,” “Daddy’s Roommate,” and Webster’s Ninth Collegiate Dictionary have in common?

They were all banned from schools or libraries based on their content. The Barstow branch library will be joining libraries around the world this week in celebrating individuals’ freedom to read what they want during Banned Books Week.

Books in the Barstow library’s collection that have been challenged or banned for their content elsewhere have been placed on prominent display in a case in the library with red X’s fashioned from tape on their spines. The front of the books carry “warning” labels informing readers of their banned content.

When library employee Steve Smith went to gather religious texts — which often face challenges — for the display, he noticed that someone at the library may have taken the banning into their own hands and stolen the Barstow branch’s copy of the Quran.

“I can’t say 100 percent that it was stolen, but the computer says it should be in the stacks and it’s not there,” said Smith. 

Smith said the only challenge to materials at the Barstow branch that he can recall came when two Barstow residents asked that the video copy of “Brokeback Mountain” be taken off the shelves. The library did not comply, but someone did check the video out some time ago and has yet to return it.

http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html (http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on September 28, 2010, 07:07:04 PM

"... for the display, he noticed that someone at the library may have taken the banning into their own hands and stolen the Barstow branch’s copy of the Quran.
“I can’t say 100 percent that it was stolen, but the computer says it should be in the stacks and it’s not there,” said Smith. 

Smith said the only challenge to materials at the Barstow branch that he can recall came when two Barstow residents asked that the video copy of “Brokeback Mountain” be taken off the shelves. The library did not comply, but someone did check the video out some time ago and has yet to return it."

(http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html)


**This is totally disgusting.  How ignorant can these nuts be?  These "people" who stole the items are nothing but thieves and idiots, preventing patrons of a library from reading, learning, and seeing.**

kathy   >:(   
p.s.  Can't they go after the idiots who "checked out" the video & never returned it?  Better still - why doesn't the library replace both items that were stolen??   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on September 28, 2010, 07:13:32 PM
At least one of our members was involved in an effort to make copies of BBM available in libraries.  Perhaps she can see to it that this library gets a copy back in circulation.   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on September 28, 2010, 07:23:50 PM
"... for the display, he noticed that someone at the library may have taken the banning into their own hands and stolen the Barstow branch’s copy of the Quran.
“I can’t say 100 percent that it was stolen, but the computer says it should be in the stacks and it’s not there,” said Smith. 

Smith said the only challenge to materials at the Barstow branch that he can recall came when two Barstow residents asked that the video copy of “Brokeback Mountain” be taken off the shelves. The library did not comply, but someone did check the video out some time ago and has yet to return it."

(http://www.desertdispatch.com/news/barstow-9334-books-library.html)


**This is totally disgusting.  How ignorant can these nuts be?  These "people" who stole the items are nothing but thieves and idiots, preventing patrons of a library from reading, learning, and seeing.**

kathy   >:(   
p.s.  Can't they go after the idiots who "checked out" the video & never returned it?  Better still - why doesn't the library replace both items that were stolen??   

Oh ! p-lease !! If some people got any narrower....they'd fit down the neck of a bottle !
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on September 28, 2010, 07:44:33 PM
At least one of our members was involved in an effort to make copies of BBM available in libraries.  Perhaps she can see to it that this library gets a copy back in circulation.   :)


Donating DVDs to libraries was one of the original campaigns of the forum, following the ad in Variety.  We donated a lot of DVDs.  I can't look back at the info right now, but I will when I come back.

If people are going to engage in this vandalism, I don't know the answer.  :p
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on October 08, 2010, 09:35:13 PM
 :)  Hi from kathy --

Maybe someone can help me - I don't know exactly where to post this question.

My e-mail address has changed and I have no idea how to let the DC forums know; and I don't know how to change it.  Of course I'm having trouble with getting e-mails already.  I did go to my "profile" to try to change it but couldn't.   ???

Can anyone tell me how to inform the forums it has changed?  Thank you much.

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: foreverinawe on October 09, 2010, 08:33:50 AM
I want to report a horrible computer malfunction.

And how to fix it.

Three days ago, apropos of absolutely nothing I was aware of, my fine 6-month-old HP Pavilion with Win7  mysteriously displayed six separate Word documents, each running in its own separate window. I did not recognize any of the six documents, and Word displayed them as part normal English characters and part gibberish, about 50-50. Each also carried an error message saying that Word could not understand or manipulate them, and it turned out that that included Closing -- it could not close them!

But that was only the start.

On my Desktop, I have 25 icons for my various programs. As is normal, each icon was unique, and vaguely served to reflect the purpose of its program. Of course, below each icon was the proper name of the program.

Twenty of the 25 had turned to Word icons, although the proper name remained underneath. But the proper name now was four characters longer: ".lnk" was added to it. If I clicked the icon, it opened another Word document, filled with gibberish. But at least it would close if the clicked the big red X.

Every program has its own .exe file, and by trial and error I discovered that I could use the Start menu's Search Programs and Files (the entry box at the bottom) to enter the .exe filename of any program, and it would find it. Then I could click the name of the file, and it would run normally!

By entering the filename, I was bypassing its icon, so I began to suspect that it was the icons that were the problem. But what to do about it?

I Googled it.

That's right, in Google I entered "All my icons have turned into Word icons". Unbelievably, I got pages of hits. Most were from victims like myself, asking for help, but help there was. In a lot of cases, "Word" was not the intruder, but some different program on the user's computer. From reading the posts, it seemed to me that the problem involved the Registry, a place of horrors.

One response linked me to The WinHelpOnLineBlog, which I had never heard of.

http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/file-asso-fixes-for-windows-7/ (http://www.winhelponline.com/blog/file-asso-fixes-for-windows-7/)

After reading a bit from the blog, I realized that this was a far more common problem, and had even existed in XP.  It really involves file associations in the registry, and somehow all (or almost all) of them had become infected. The blog offered a simple fix: download the automatic registry file association fixer, unzip it and run it. The "run" only took about one second, in my case. (Plus it was free.)

But it worked. I rebooted, and my computer was back to normal.

Was the original malfunction some sort of internal glitch inside my computer? Was it caused by a virus, or something that arrived on line (I have latest Norton)? I just don't know, But when the crises ended, I didn't investigate any more, and just tried to pick my life back up where it had stopped.

Hope it never happens to you, but if it does, this is a life saver.

   ~~~fia
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 10, 2010, 03:18:09 PM
A 2-Poisson Model for Probabilistic Coreference of
Named Entities for Improved Text Retrieval


Named entities referring to entities in the real world are
important queries in text retrieval. Examples of named entities
...include person names (such as Bill Clinton), company
names (such as Qualcomm), movie names (such as Brokeback
Mountain), etc.


(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/BBMTbl1.jpg)

http://www.comp.nus.edu/~nght/pubs/sigir09.pdf (http://www.comp.nus.edu/~nght/pubs/sigir09.pdf)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on October 10, 2010, 04:10:20 PM
Huh ??? ???
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 10, 2010, 04:53:18 PM
Huh ??? ???

Does this help? :

En 2-Poisson modell för probabilistisk Coreference av
Namngivna Enheter för bättre text Retrieval

Uppkallad enheter hänvisar till enheter i den verkliga världen är
viktiga frågor i texten hämtning. Exempel på namngivna enheter
... Omfattar person namn (som Bill Clinton), företag
namn (t.ex. Qualcomm), namn film (t.ex. Brokeback
Mountain)


 ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on October 10, 2010, 06:25:16 PM
   Huh?     ???          ???

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on October 11, 2010, 02:48:18 PM
Does this help? :

En 2-Poisson modell för probabilistisk Coreference av
Namngivna Enheter för bättre text Retrieval

Uppkallad enheter hänvisar till enheter i den verkliga världen är
viktiga frågor i texten hämtning. Exempel på namngivna enheter
... Omfattar person namn (som Bill Clinton), företag
namn (t.ex. Qualcomm), namn film (t.ex. Brokeback
Mountain)


 ;D

Oh, so THAT'S what it means!!!

Thank you John, I totally understand it all now!!! not


 ;D  :-*
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 13, 2010, 05:37:05 PM
Patrick Wilson talks to The Advocate about his gay roles, his gay fan base and his bare ass

Quote
You haven’t played gay since Angels. Why not?
There’s no rhyme and reason, but that is kind of funny, right? I really haven’t been offered a lot of gay characters. It didn’t get to the point where I auditioned, but I remember when Brokeback Mountain was happening early on—before they knew if it was going to work with Heath and Jake. But when I was sent the Brokeback Mountain script, I didn’t bat an eye. That was pretty soon after Angels came out, but I couldn’t have cared less if I only did two roles on screen and one was Joe Pitt and the other was in Brokeback. I don’t care whether a role’s gay or straight; if it’s good, it’s good.

http://greginhollywood.com/patrick-wilson-talks-to-the-advocate-about-his-gay-roles-his-gay-fan-base-and-his-bare-ass-39013 (http://greginhollywood.com/patrick-wilson-talks-to-the-advocate-about-his-gay-roles-his-gay-fan-base-and-his-bare-ass-39013)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 21, 2010, 01:40:23 AM
Gay and gay-friendly students speak out about climate at Montclair’s high schools

During the annual Montclair Cup, when the
hockey teams for Montclair High School and
The Montclair Kimberley Academy battle for
supremacy, both sides’ fans employ
decidedly anti-gay chants.

"MKGay, MKGay," MHS’s students yell, while
their opponents respond with, "Brokeback
Mounties, Brokeback Mounties," a reference
to the 2005 gay-cowboy romance,
"Brokeback Mountain."

Anti-gay chants at school sporting events are
nothing new. Just last week in Ohio, dozens
of high-school students were recorded
chanting a gay slur at the opposing team. But
the Montclair Cup chants illustrate how anti-
gay sentiment can pervade schools even in
liberal enclaves like Montclair.

http://www.northjersey.com/news/105410078__Sometimes_people_are_really_scary_.html (http://www.northjersey.com/news/105410078__Sometimes_people_are_really_scary_.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 21, 2010, 02:55:46 PM
Against Friendship
By Gregory Jusdanis 10.21.2010

The glaze in their eyes gives it away, the slight tightening of their lips, and the nervous breath. When colleagues learn about my new project, they begin to feel sorry for me. “Why friendship of all subjects?” It’s seems quaint to them or just light; in any case, not a legitimate object of inquiry.

And when hosts ask me about potential lecture topics and I mention friendship, they ask: “How about something on nationalism or what about aesthetics? The politics of criticism, maybe?” And when I insist on friendship, I pick up the edginess of their fingers on the keyboard.

So what’s wrong with friendship and why are people so indifferent to it? How can an important relationship be so lost in the academic radar screen? Of course, there has been in the last twenty years some work on friendship in many fields, such as literary criticism, sociology, psychology, and philosophy. Interestingly, many of these studies begin with the standard complaint about the little interest expressed by the academy in the topic.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Epistemology of the Closet Eve Kosovsky Sedgwick lists many ideological tensions in her examination of the crisis in representation: the heterosexual/homosexual, secrecy/disclosure, in/out, natural/ artificial, masculine/feminine, canonic/noncanonic, discipline/terrorism, majority/minority amongst others. Friendship gets not even a mention because it does not fit into the definitions she examines. It does not manifest the oppositions she believes come to express the modern age.

Sedgwick makes a point by her very silence. We’re not really interested in the friend as a simultaneous exchange of the same and the different; but only if this ambivalence can be reduced to an identity. This is why the two men, Jack and Ennis in E. Annie Proulx’s short story, “Brokeback Mountain” (later made into a film by Ang Lee), can’t be friends. Unlike Gilgamesh and Enkidu, Achilles and Patroclus, David and Jonathan, they can’t fall in love with each other without their love being turned into a binary opposition.


http://arcade.stanford.edu/against-friendship (http://arcade.stanford.edu/against-friendship)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 22, 2010, 12:58:00 PM
CMLT-C 301(18583):
Special Topics in Comparative Literature:
Classic Gay Literature
Department of Comparative Literature – Spring 2011

Professor J. Johnson | MW 4:00-5:15 pm | fulfills A&H and CS requirements*

The Department of Comparative Literature is pleased to offer its first course devoted to the study of gay literature from around the world. We will be reading Thomas Mann’s Death in Venice, Yukio Mishima’s Confessions of a Mask, Tennessee Williams’ Suddenly Last Summer, Virginia Woolf’s Orlando, Annie Proulx’ “Brokeback Mountain,” Plato’s Symposium, and the lyric poetry of C. P. Cavafy.

http://www.indiana.edu/~glbt/cmlt-c-301-18583-classic-gay-literature/ (http://www.indiana.edu/~glbt/cmlt-c-301-18583-classic-gay-literature/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 22, 2010, 02:14:17 PM
Randy Quaid and wife arrested in Vancouver

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/randy-quaid-and-wife-arrested-in-vancouver-reports/article1769358/?cmpid=rss1
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on October 22, 2010, 07:52:13 PM
**This seems to be getting more and more stupid.  What is up with those Quaids' anyway?  Now he seeks refugee status in Canada after breaking laws in the the U.S. and evading court twice.  What a deadbeat!

Well, if they want to stay in and love Canada so much, go ahead.  But the Canadian authorities surely can't count on them showing up for anything.** 

kathy
p.s.  I can't help feeling this way about Quaid.  Since the day he filed suit against Focus Features for more $$$$$ from BBM, and the case finally being quietly "settled", I have no thought for him at all.  Deadbeat.   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on October 23, 2010, 05:30:04 PM
The Quaids definitely seem to be going through a bizarre time of life, don't they?

 :o
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on October 27, 2010, 12:44:58 AM
This is for Joseph

By Doug Spearman

There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch.  Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.  There is only one window, open half-way, looking out over a barren and seemingly endless landscape. A plastic pony sits on the window ledge, the only toy in the room. Under the window there’s a small, four-legged stool.  It’s easy for me to imagine a little boy sitting at the one window that belongs to him, pretending to ride his horse over the horizon to something new, something different, something better.  It’s easy for me, because I was that kind of little boy.

I just read portions of a suicide note. It was written by a 26 year old black man named Joseph Jefferson. He lived in New York. His windows looked out on the busiest most important city in the world, millions of people and the wealth of an empire all spread out before him, and he saw no hope.  He hung himself because he couldn’t take not belonging. He couldn’t continue the fight for not just equality, but a place where he, as a black gay man fit in.  I bet Joseph was that kind of boy, too.

Except my room was much nicer than the one in the movie and filled with toys.  And instead of a depression-era landscape, I looked over a forest of maple and oak trees in Maryland.  The feelings, however, were the same.  How would I make it out of here?  Who was going to love me?


more...

http://dot429.com/articles/2010/10/25/joseph (http://dot429.com/articles/2010/10/25/joseph)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 05, 2010, 01:10:34 AM
The Mark of Death: Awareness in Brokeback Mountain

Quote
" As far as the narrative goes, Ennis is set-up as the central figure,
partnered by Jack Twist, who we quickly learn lived both a twin and a
separate life from Ennis’s. Their origins begin in “small, poor
ranches.” Ennis, though, has one distinguishing feature, that is
both his defining characteristic, and also a broader point being made in
Brokeback Mountain. He bears the curse of life, which is death.
Ennis has lost both his parents, but Jack’s outlive their son. Ennis has
experienced his lover’s death, and also witnessed the grisly aftermath
of another gay cowboy’s lynching."

-------------------------------------------------------

Quote
Only once is sex poetic, when Ennis’s actions are described: “[he] laid the ministering angel out in the wild columbine, wings folded.” (p. 51)
  ???  ???  ???

http://ronaldmetellus.blogspot.com/2010/10/mark-of-death-awareness-in-brokeback.html (http://ronaldmetellus.blogspot.com/2010/10/mark-of-death-awareness-in-brokeback.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 05, 2010, 08:31:08 PM
**Who in the world is this "ronald" who wrote such lies?  Another so-called blogger who writes trash on a blog about AP's ss, obviously never saw the beautiful film, and has such a know-it-all attitude.**

kathy   >:(    
p.s.     bcj:  Is this for real?  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 05, 2010, 08:44:06 PM
It looks real to me.

He's reviewing the short story, not the movie.

I thought some of it was interesting, and I don't see anything homophobic about it.

He obviously misread the part about the ministering angel. I've never heard anyone confuse it with sex before.

I don't get the feeling that he's 'degrading' or 'belittling' the story at all.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 05, 2010, 08:52:03 PM
**Really??  I thought he was downright degrading.  But I did realize it was about the ss, not the film.
   
Well, maybe I'm being too protective of our boys, and let my love for the film take over.  I do that sometimes.**  

kathy   :-\  
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Jay Preis on November 12, 2010, 01:22:35 PM
There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch.  Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.  There is only one window, open half-way, looking out over a barren and seemingly endless landscape. A plastic pony sits on the window ledge, the only toy in the room. Under the window there’s a small, four-legged stool.  It’s easy for me to imagine a little boy sitting at the one window that belongs to him, pretending to ride his horse over the horizon to something new, something different, something better.  It’s easy for me, because I was that kind of little boy.

Odd the way people confuse actors with the characters they portray and have a dreamy-eyed, romantically distorted recollection of scenes from the film.

It was Ennis (played by Heath Ledger) standing in Jack Twist's childhood bedroom, not in Jake Gyllenhaals's childhood bedroom.

The window did not look out over a romantic "seemingly endless landscape." According to the script, the window looked down "on the dirt road stretching south...the only road out of this godforsaken place."  In the original story "the window looked down on the gravel road stretching south and it occurred to him that for his growing-up years that was the only road Jack knew. "

The "toy" was a small wooden horse and rider, not a romantic pony. And it was not the only "toy" in the room.

The stool had two legs, not four.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 12, 2010, 01:23:26 PM
Welcome to the Forum, Jay Preis!

You might have missed all the talk back in them earlier days, but the good news is we saved it for you.



This is a good topic to read. The original "How Brokeback Affected Me" topic from 2005:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=101.0)

If new members have questions, try "New Members Ask - Experienced Members Respond "

http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0 (http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=4687.0)

We also have a site map here:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8878.0 (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=8878.0)

You might also be interested in our book:

Selected from among the most compelling writing on The Ultimate Brokeback Forum, the stories in Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film convey the remarkable power of the film Brokeback Mountain to affect the lives of all sorts of people—straight and gay, old and young, male and female—on six continents. Ranging from the amusing to the emotionally devastating, the pieces collected in Beyond Brokeback crystallize the deep, frequently life-changing reactions of its often-unsuspecting viewers.

http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/book/ (http://www.davecullen.com/brokeback/book/)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 12, 2010, 01:25:14 PM
Odd the way people confuse actors with the characters they portray and have a dreamy-eyed, romantically distorted recollection of scenes from the film.

It was Ennis (played by Heath Ledger) standing in Jack Twist's childhood bedroom, not in Jake Gyllenhaals's childhood bedroom.

The window did not look out over a romantic "seemingly endless landscape." According to the script, the window looked down "on the dirt road stretching south...the only road out of this godforsaken place."  In the original story "the window looked down on the gravel road stretching south and it occurred to him that for his growing-up years that was the only road Jack knew. "

The "toy" was a small wooden horse and rider, not a romantic pony. And it was not the only "toy" in the room.

The stool had two legs, not four.

Exactly  There was a large toy truck underneath the desk. And the teddy bear is a toy as well.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on November 12, 2010, 02:35:03 PM
Odd the way people confuse actors with the characters they portray and have a dreamy-eyed, romantically distorted recollection of scenes from the film.
 Welcome to the forum, Jay!

   That was an informative first post, but I don't, myself, find it odd that people confuse actors with the characters they portray.  Often, some part of the actor merges with the character, and some kind of hybrid emerges.  One of the criticisms of Jake Gyllenhaal (very much unfair, I think) is that he plays....Jake Gyllenhaal, in whatever movie he is in.  But that is certainly a credible view of some others in the industry.  And then we have those who lose their identity and become their character.  Clint Eastwood comes to mind as someone who is a Clint Eastwood wannabe.
  As far as romantically distorted recollections, well, BbM was, for many of us, so powerful and haunting that it would not, IMO, be odd, but somewhat natural, that some scenes trigger a blending with our own past, or even what we want to see.  There's unusual chemistry in this film between what's on the screen, and the viewer.
 That chemistry has fueled 5 years of these discussion threads, and, of course, the welcome and warranted references (like yours) to what actually is in the SS or the film is part of that flow.
  Thanks for joining in, and please keep making very good posts!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on November 12, 2010, 05:53:28 PM
The Buzz Image site has been reorganized and I can't find the Brokeback post-production clip.  Which is a pity, because I used to watch it everyday as I started at work.  The music, by Thomas Newman's Shawshank Redemption, is wonderful.

I just sent Buzz Image an e-mail asking about this, but I don't expect them to reply.

If anyone knows if that clip is still accessible somewhere, please reply or PM me.

Thanks.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Jay Preis on November 12, 2010, 05:55:48 PM
  Welcome to the forum, Jay!

   That was an informative first post, but I don't, myself, find it odd that people confuse actors with the characters they portray.  Often, some part of the actor merges with the character, and some kind of hybrid emerges.  One of the criticisms of Jake Gyllenhaal (very much unfair, I think) is that he plays....Jake Gyllenhaal, in whatever movie he is in.  But that is certainly a credible view of some others in the industry.  And then we have those who lose their identity and become their character.  Clint Eastwood comes to mind as someone who is a Clint Eastwood wannabe.
  As far as romantically distorted recollections, well, BbM was, for many of us, so powerful and haunting that it would not, IMO, be odd, but somewhat natural, that some scenes trigger a blending with our own past, or even what we want to see.  There's unusual chemistry in this film between what's on the screen, and the viewer.
 That chemistry has fueled 5 years of these discussion threads, and, of course, the welcome and warranted references (like yours) to what actually is in the SS or the film is part of that flow.
  Thanks for joining in, and please keep making very good posts!

I understand, Tony, but it's a bit over the top when a viewer writes: "There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch.  Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.", as though the film was about Heath Ledger and Jack Gyllenhaal instead of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, and Ledger was actually standing in Gyllenhaal's bedroom.

An innocent slip of the pen? Perhaps. But the viewer could just as easily, and more accurately, have written: "There's a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch: Ennis standing in Jack’s childhood bedroom..." Why did the viewer feel the need to refer to the characters by the actors' names? Did he forget the names of the characters? If the performances were really so compelling that they made the characters seem real, then why refer to the characters by the actors' names? It's as though the viewer subconsciously believes, or wants to believe, the film is really about Ledger and Gyllenhaal.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on November 12, 2010, 06:04:22 PM
The Buzz Image site has been reorganized and I can't find the Brokeback post-production clip.  Which is a pity, because I used to watch it everyday as I started at work.  The music, by Thomas Newman's Shawshank Redemption, is wonderful.

I just sent Buzz Image an e-mail asking about this, but I don't expect them to reply.

If anyone knows if that clip is still accessible somewhere, please reply or PM me.

Thanks.

You can find it here, Marc. I downloaded the clip a while ago because you never know when it might disappear. I love watching it over and over again too, and really appreciate the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q

And welcome to the Forum, Jay!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: gwyllion on November 12, 2010, 06:59:27 PM
Wow!  Thanks so much guys!  I've never seen that before!

What a treat!

 :-*
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on November 12, 2010, 07:19:44 PM
Isn't that good,Donna? So much goes into the making of a scene, it's almost unbelievable!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on November 12, 2010, 07:53:23 PM
An innocent slip of the pen? Perhaps.
   Hi, Jay - I understand what you are saying, above.  I can't speak for the writer, but would only say, I knew what he meant.  Also, he's someone, IMO, whose posts are never to be missed. Anyway, you do have a strong and well-written focus when you post.  When you look around some more, I have no doubt you'll add a new viewpoint, and some new flavor to the general soup.
  We also have a Topic of the Week, that kind of picks out one area from BbM general discussion, for one week, and also the other sections.  I hope you like writing, and also find the particular subjects about the film or SS that interest you enough to weigh in.  It's a motley crew, here, but I know, when I first showed up, it took me awhile to get used to the different regulars, and their approaches, which vary widely.  It can be fun.  It can also be...a zoo.  I qualify for the zoo aspect, I guess.  You seem to be gifted at clear expression of what you see.  Am looking forward to your take on the various subjects.  And hope you enjoy the company, here.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on November 12, 2010, 08:28:51 PM
  Wow, the special effects clip was one heck of a discovery!  Just imagine, with that technology, what they could have added to FNIT  :D.  Oh, never mind.  The Slashers have already done that......
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on November 12, 2010, 08:32:45 PM
You can find it here, Marc. I downloaded the clip a while ago because you never know when it might disappear. I love watching it over and over again too, and really appreciate the music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPw5plmkd6Q

And welcome to the Forum, Jay!



This was brilliant fritz. Where and how on earth did you find it ?

I can understand the sheep having to be computer generated but I can't understand why valleys and mountains had to be added or taken away or even made bigger and wider. After going to Alberta this year and traveling around the Rockies....I would have thought there was enough fabulous scenery to have fitted any on the scenes they shot.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on November 12, 2010, 08:40:52 PM
Can't remember how I first came across it on the Buzz site, probably referred to it by another Brokie. It changed its address so many times on that website that I downloaded the video. Tonight, hearing that it was gone again, I googled "Brokeback Mountain special effects" on YouTube.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: suelyblu on November 12, 2010, 08:49:09 PM
  Wow, the special effects clip was one heck of a discovery!  Just imagine, with that technology, what they could have added to FNIT  :D.  Oh, never mind.  The Slashers have already done that......

But "The Slashers" do it so well !!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on November 13, 2010, 09:43:32 AM
I understand, Tony, but it's a bit over the top when a viewer writes: "There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch.  Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.", as though the film was about Heath Ledger and Jack Gyllenhaal instead of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, and Ledger was actually standing in Gyllenhaal's bedroom.

An innocent slip of the pen? Perhaps. But the viewer could just as easily, and more accurately, have written: "There's a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch: Ennis standing in Jack’s childhood bedroom..." Why did the viewer feel the need to refer to the characters by the actors' names? Did he forget the names of the characters? If the performances were really so compelling that they made the characters seem real, then why refer to the characters by the actors' names? It's as though the viewer subconsciously believes, or wants to believe, the film is really about Ledger and Gyllenhaal.



Hi friend!  

You are very much welcome here to discuss Brokeback Mountain and I hope you will stay and get to know us.

It's a good idea to read the rules of the forum.

This is a moderated board and one of our number one rules is respect for other participants, so usually we don't go so far as to edit somebody else's post. Your point about not confusing actors with their characters is certainly valid, and most of us are aware of it, especially of the fact that Annie Proulx's characters were not written as a couple of the best looking heart throbs in Hollywood.  

Here, we have a long history of Heath and Jake respect for the excellent job they did in the movie, and I took the post to mean the viewer was aware of Heath acting the part of Ennis.

Take some time to get to know us a little bit.   ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: morrobay on November 13, 2010, 10:02:08 AM
I found this quote and didn't know where to put it...it was on a blog and the current topic of the day was Stetson vs Resistol...

Everything reminds me...

other than a real mangy old Resistol straw that only goes fishing, all my cowboy hats are Stetsons....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on November 13, 2010, 12:22:42 PM
hmmm I wonder why the Resistol goes fishing?  Must be one of them "lucky" hats
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on November 13, 2010, 01:14:21 PM

Hi friend!  

You are very much welcome here to discuss Brokeback Mountain and I hope you will stay and get to know us.

It's a good idea to read the rules of the forum.

This is a moderated board and one of our number one rules is respect for other participants, so usually we don't go so far as to edit somebody else's post. Your point about not confusing actors with their characters is certainly valid, and most of us are aware of it, especially of the fact that Annie Proulx's characters were not written as a couple of the best looking heart throbs in Hollywood.  

Here, we have a long history of Heath and Jake respect for the excellent job they did in the movie, and I took the post to mean the viewer was aware of Heath acting the part of Ennis.

Take some time to get to know us a little bit.   ;)

The quote he was 're-quoting' was by "Doug Spearman".  Is this person a Forum member or just someone commenting at another website?

After a history of more than four years, there are quite a few points that get repeated.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 13, 2010, 01:28:13 PM
Doug Spearman is not a forum member.

I posted quotes from the article along with the link only as a point of discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug Spearman is a Washington, D.C. native who's been acting since the age of seven when he discovered that the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz were actually people and not real monkeys. A no-brainer as to a career choice as far as he was concerned.

His career highlights have included work on such television shows as StarTrek Voyager, The Drew Carey Show, The Hughleys, Charmed, America's Most Wanted, Gideon's Crossing, MAD TV, Girlfriends, and the Profiler.

On stage Doug has starred in such productions as the American premiere of the AIDS drama, the Ice Pick at the Celebration Theater in Los Aneles, the Men's Room, Moscow, The Bullpen Boys, A Few Good Men, and the world premiere of the Tony Award winning South Coast Repertory's production of The Hollow Lands, by Howard Corder.

Doug co-starred in the motion picture Cradle 2 The Grave with Jet Li and DMX and had several small parts in big movies and large parts in small movies. Doug stars as Professor Chance Counter in the ground breaking television series Noah's Arc on LOGO and the feature film of the same name.


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0817335/bio
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 13, 2010, 01:35:45 PM

Doug Spearman is a Washington, D.C. native who's been acting since the age of seven when he discovered that the flying monkeys in the Wizard of Oz were actually people and not real monkeys.

I am guilty of sometimes referring to the lead character in the Wizard of Oz as "Judy Garland" rather than "Dorothy Gale"
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on November 13, 2010, 07:16:01 PM
The quote he was 're-quoting' was by "Doug Spearman".  Is this person a Forum member or just someone commenting at another website?

After a history of more than four years, there are quite a few points that get repeated.


Good catch!

wow, we all do it so much here (say Heath when we mean Ennis) -- and probably I have done it too -- I thought Jay P was referring to one of our quotes.

Heck we can criticize other people and re-write their stuff if we want, that's not against forum rules!   ;D

thanks for clearing that up
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Jay Preis on November 14, 2010, 01:58:42 AM

Good catch!

wow, we all do it so much here (say Heath when we mean Ennis) -- and probably I have done it too -- I thought Jay P was referring to one of our quotes.

Heck we can criticize other people and re-write their stuff if we want, that's not against forum rules!   ;D

thanks for clearing that up
It's not all so clear to me.

Yes, people often say that this or that actor did this or that in a scene.

But that is hardly the same as deliberately referring to a scene of Ennis standing in Jack's childhood bedroom as "Heath Ledger standing in Jake Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom," as though Ledger was actually standing in a replica of Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom which Gyllenhaal's mother had kept as it was when he was a boy living in Beverly Hills.

In any case, I was not criticizing, attacking or disrespecting anyone.  I was making a critical observation about the PHENOMENON of CONFLATING an actor with the character he portrays. I merely quoted Spearman as an example of the phenomenon.

I neither edited nor rewrote anyone's stuff, nor could I have done so since I do not have the necessary user privileges.

Nor can quoting and commenting on a post be equated with editing or rewriting it.

The operative word in the title of this forum is "discussion". How can there be discussion if one cannot express an opinion about something in a post? What difference does it make whose quotes I refer to?

Are you saying that commenting on something posted by a member amounts to disrespecting the member unless I either agree with him, or else preface my remarks with apologies and IMHO?

Can you quote the specific Forum Rule(s) prohibiting quoting, commenting on, or disagreeing with something a member posts? I read the Rules and cannot find it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Paul029 on November 14, 2010, 03:09:40 AM
~it's a bit over the top when a viewer writes: "There’s a scene in Brokeback Mountain that is almost too personal for me to watch.  Heath Ledger is standing in Jake Gyllenhaal’s childhood bedroom.", as though the film was about Heath Ledger and Jack Gyllenhaal instead of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist, and Ledger was actually standing in Gyllenhaal's bedroom...

Why did the viewer feel the need to refer to the characters by the actors' names? Did he forget the names of the characters? If the performances were really so compelling that they made the characters seem real, then why refer to the characters by the actors' names?~ 
Hi Jay,
I'm enjoying reading your posts.
Conflating an actor with a role seems to be quite common nowadays in cyberspace.
Even critics on IMBd (who should know better) do it.
Not to mention the drivel that appears on its predominately moronic Message Boards.  ::)

But at least Doug Spearman used the actors' proper names.
Calling them "Heath" and "Jake" could suggest that they were his close personal acquaintances...  ;)

~ The window did not look out over a romantic "seemingly endless landscape." According to the script, the window looked down "on the dirt road stretching south...the only road out of this godforsaken place."  In the original story "the window looked down on the gravel road stretching south and it occurred to him that for his growing-up years that was the only road Jack knew. "
The "toy" was a small wooden horse and rider, not a romantic pony. And it was not the only "toy" in the room.
The stool had two legs, not four.
Even "professional" film reviewers on IMDb and elsewhere get things wrong at times.
I sometimes sadly wonder whether they're reviewing the same film that I saw.
Their inaccuracy regarding "minor" details, let alone significant plot points, tends to significantly undermine their credibility as reviewers.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on November 14, 2010, 08:31:49 AM
It's not all so clear to me.

Yes, people often say that this or that actor did this or that in a scene.

But that is hardly the same as deliberately referring to a scene of Ennis standing in Jack's childhood bedroom as "Heath Ledger standing in Jake Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom," as though Ledger was actually standing in a replica of Gyllenhaal's childhood bedroom which Gyllenhaal's mother had kept as it was when he was a boy living in Beverly Hills.

In any case, I was not criticizing, attacking or disrespecting anyone.  I was making a critical observation about the PHENOMENON of CONFLATING an actor with the character he portrays. I merely quoted Spearman as an example of the phenomenon.

I neither edited nor rewrote anyone's stuff, nor could I have done so since I do not have the necessary user privileges.

Nor can quoting and commenting on a post be equated with editing or rewriting it.

The operative word in the title of this forum is "discussion". How can there be discussion if one cannot express an opinion about something in a post? What difference does it make whose quotes I refer to?

Are you saying that commenting on something posted by a member amounts to disrespecting the member unless I either agree with him, or else preface my remarks with apologies and IMHO?

Can you quote the specific Forum Rule(s) prohibiting quoting, commenting on, or disagreeing with something a member posts? I read the Rules and cannot find it.


You can absolutely quote another forum member and absolutely disagree with another forum member, respectfully.

I said I misunderstood, and I'm sorry for that, especially with a new member.  You are welcome here.


ETA:  if there are any further comments on this please send them in PM, let's get back to the General Discussion.

Thanks.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on November 14, 2010, 03:03:54 PM
This was brilliant fritz. Where and how on earth did you find it ?

I can understand the sheep having to be computer generated but I can't understand why valleys and mountains had to be added or taken away or even made bigger and wider. After going to Alberta this year and traveling around the Rockies....I would have thought there was enough fabulous scenery to have fitted any on the scenes they shot.

I don't either; though I can see why they would use day-for-night and 'edit' shots to make something look just the way they want.  Like the first glimpse you get of Brokeback when it's half-shrouded in mist.

BTW, I was surprised awhile back to find out that this is an older kind of trick than we might think, though low-tech by our standards in the old movie days.  In Gone with the Wind (that's 1939), there was an early scene at "Twelve Oaks" where a line of carriages supposedly headed up the drive toward the plantation house was actually going nowhere and the set was added later.  Of course, that was a backdrop; and some of the wounded soldiers in a scene with hundreds of wounded at a railroad depot were dummies.  People did what they could to make it look right.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on November 14, 2010, 03:27:12 PM
And some of those carriages approaching Twelve Oaks cast no shadow. Oops!

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 14, 2010, 04:42:04 PM
Wow!  Thanks so much guys!  I've never seen that before!

What a treat!
 :-*

**I had never seen this either.  The special effects are really not out of proportion; they just enhance the beautiful film. 
The music in the clip is beautiful.  And it's always wonderful to see something new re BBM.**

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 14, 2010, 05:12:37 PM
 :)  Hi - just want to say a couple of things:

1)  Whoever Spearman is, I think he falls into the category of a "columnist" (?) who doesn't get the facts right about a pivotal scene from a beautiful film.   Saying things like a "plastic pony  ???, etc., definitely put me in the mood of "oh, another one who doesn't know what he's talking about.  When Ennis goes into Jack's boyhood room, it is one of the saddest scenes in this beautiful film; therefore, I don't give a damn about what he says at all.  I have a real  feeling he's one of the ones who never even saw BBM. 
And it's sad when someone else may "believe" or repeat what some self-professed know-it-all like spearman says.

2)  GWTW:  Oh yes, there are wonderful special effects in it, by Jack Cosgrove  who was a wizard at this, e.g. matte shots, trick photography, process backgrounds, multiple detailed paintings. 

kathy   
 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on November 15, 2010, 09:03:03 AM
An interesting thing about Newman's music in the special effects clip is that it's 98% the same as on the Shawshank CD, but the variations are improvements.  That's oddly reminiscent of the differences between BBM's official screenplay and the actual film.  Every difference is an improvement.

Maybe a year ago I did everything I could to send Newman a fan letter, but no office I spoke to was accepting mail for him.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marc on November 15, 2010, 05:35:40 PM
Regarding Jay, our new member, here's a good question:

What threads should he read first?

Maybe Symbolism and Imagery and Structure of the Movie and Film Editing.

Stay away from Slash threads unless you have buckets of time to devote to fan fiction.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on November 16, 2010, 09:29:07 AM
Maybe Scene by Scene? 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: doodler on November 16, 2010, 11:19:53 AM
Photo Caps, especially the older (closed) threads... but bring your sense of humor. If you've recently discovered Brokeback, some of those captions can be tough on raw emotions.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 23, 2010, 02:30:35 AM
William Handley's new book available for pre-ordering on Amazon

The Brokeback Book: From Story to Cultural Phenomenon

   

“There’s a Chinese saying, that you throw a brick to attract jade. So it is that the most precious thing about filmmaking—the reactions of the viewers—is entirely out of the hands of the filmmakers. We set out to make one film with Brokeback Mountain, and in return, we got an overwhelming number of reactions that we never expected from moviegoers who saw themselves, or the other, or both, reflected on the big screen. There is a whole range of Brokeback Mountains, many of which are explored in the fascinating, sometimes contradictory, and always passionate essays in this book.”—Ang Lee, Academy Award–winning director of Brokeback Mountain

http://astore.amazon.com/davecullencom-20/detail/0803226640 (http://astore.amazon.com/davecullencom-20/detail/0803226640)

“Enlightening and provocative, The Brokeback Book is an outstanding collection of personal and scholarly essays. It’s an indispensable guide to a cultural milestone of our time.”—Robert Sklar, author of Movie-Made America: A Cultural History of American Movies


“This extraordinary collection allows us to understand Brokeback Mountain as a social phenomenon, a revisionist Western, a classic love story, and a deeply transformative experience for millions of gay and lesbian viewers. The best movies do more than entertain—they alter the course of cultural history. The Brokeback Book shows us how and why Brokeback Mountain achieved just that.”—Christopher Kelly, film critic for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and Texas Monthly


“This book itself is a cultural phenomenon. William Handley has assembled a stellar cast of hard-riding contributors and a rich array of takes on the story, film, and ‘event.’ Two dozen essays and a multitude of points of view—from Marxist to genderqueer to creative insider, shaped both in the immediacy of the film’s release and with analytic hindsight—demonstrate eloquently why American culture won’t know how to quit this momentous narrative for many generations to come.”—Thomas Waugh, Research Chair in Sexual Representation and Documentary, Concordia University, Montreal Mel Hoppenheim School of Cinema


About the Author
William R. Handley is an associate professor of English at the University of Southern California. He is the author of Marriage, Violence, and Nation in the American Literary West and the coeditor, with Nathaniel Lewis, of True West: Authenticity and the American West, available in a Bison Books edition.
 
Contributors: Martin Aguilera, Calvin Bedient, Colin Carman, Alan Dale, Jon Davies, Chris Freeman, Judith Halberstam, William R. Handley, Gregory Hinton, Andrew Holleran, Alex Hunt, David Leavitt, Mun-Hou Lo, Susan McCabe, Daniel Mendelsohn, James Morrison, Vanessa Osborne, Annie Proulx, James Schamus, Michael Silverblatt, Adam Sonstegard, Noah Tsika, Kenneth Turan, Patricia Nell Warren, and David Weiss.

The Brokeback Book builds on earlier debates by novelist David Leavitt, critic Daniel Mendelsohn, producer James Schamus, and film reviewer Kenneth Turan with new and noteworthy interpretations of the Brokeback phenomenon, the film, and its legacy.

 Also appearing in print for the first time is Michael Silverblatt’s interview with Annie Proulx about the story she wrote and the film it became.


(http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af110/tootsiemom/Autry%20Panel%2012-13-09/AutryPanel12-09078.jpg)

William Handley reading from Beyond Brokeback
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 23, 2010, 04:11:34 AM
Cool John, thanks for all the info you've posted!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 23, 2010, 12:55:27 PM
FWIW

18 Films from The Arab Film Festival
October 14-24, 2010
www.arabfilmfestival.org



"Gay films" for mainstream audiences aren't that frequent, and usually just rebrand the same old clichés. The hero of Tom Ford's "A Single Man" commits suicide, and one of the lovers in Ang Lee's way over-praised "Brokeback Mountain" gets murdered; happiness, to say nothing of closure, is out of the question. And then along comes a film like "The String," Ben Attia's tale of 30-year-old, Paris-based haut bourgeois architect Malik (Antonin Stahly), who has been having fun big time there with men, until he comes back to the home of his mother Sara (Claudia Cardinale) after the death of his father Abdelaziz (Lofti Drizri), and finds sex and love with Sara's handsome handyman Bilal (Salim Kechiouche). "The String" has been criticized for the virtues that make it unique. Neither Malik, nor Bilal dies, which in the minds of followers of "A Single Man" and "Brokeback Mountain" is the equivalent to going to hell.

http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7 (http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7)

 ???
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 23, 2010, 04:17:41 PM

Tuesday, November 23, 2010
5 Years Later - A Reflection on Brokeback Mountain

Quote
It has been five years since Brokeback came out and it has proven to have changed the world in unexpected ways. Although it was a box office success and won three Oscars, it lost the Academy Award for Best Picture to Crash (I personally think neither film deserved it). It established Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, and Anne Hathaway as talented, grown-up, and legitimate actors. And it reminded us of Ang Lee's visual mastery, for which he was handsomely rewarded. But when it comes to LGBTQ inclusion, Brokeback seems to be almost a footnote in the history of gay cinema, generating no real noticeable change to the realm of mainstream movies.

http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html (http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 23, 2010, 04:21:40 PM
Gwyneth Paltrow is a ‘Lush’ and 8 Other Revelations From Chelsea Handler’s Interview Special


Quote
7. Anne Hathaway stole underwear from the set of  Brokeback Mountain
It may seem ridiculous but the actress, who played Jake Gyllenhaal’s onscreen wife in the film, had a two-prong explanation for the thievery. 1) “It was my most memorable bit of costume” and 2) “I didn’t want anyone else to have it.”


http://www.movieline.com/2010/11/gwyneth-paltrow-is-a-lush-and-8-other-revelations-from-chelsea-handlers-interview-special.php (http://www.movieline.com/2010/11/gwyneth-paltrow-is-a-lush-and-8-other-revelations-from-chelsea-handlers-interview-special.php)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on November 23, 2010, 04:27:08 PM
Quote
But when it comes to LGBTQ inclusion, Brokeback seems to be almost a footnote in the history of gay cinema, generating no real noticeable change to the realm of mainstream movies.


 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 23, 2010, 04:52:54 PM
Tuesday, November 23, 2010
5 Years Later - A Reflection on Brokeback Mountain

http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html (http://eric-jost.blogspot.com/2010/11/5-years-later-reflection-on-brokeback.html)

**What a jerk this blogger is!  Another one who obviously never saw BBM and never intended to, yet "comments" on it.  I shouldn't have read this blogger's post; all it does is make me angry.  And this blog, by a so-called know-it-all (?) is so full of errors and judgements that it should be dismissed entirely.  I wish we could be protected by "bloggers" who know nothing whatever of what they speak.**

kathy   >:(
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 23, 2010, 05:01:09 PM
FWIW

18 Films from The Arab Film Festival
October 14-24, 2010
www.arabfilmfestival.org

"Gay films" for mainstream audiences aren't that frequent, and usually just rebrand the same old clichés. The hero of Tom Ford's "A Single Man" commits suicide, and one of the lovers in Ang Lee's way over-praised "Brokeback Mountain" gets murdered; happiness, to say nothing of closure, is out of the question. And then along comes a film like "The String," Ben Attia's tale of 30-year-old, Paris-based haut bourgeois architect Malik (Antonin Stahly), who has been having fun big time there with men, until he comes back to the home of his mother Sara (Claudia Cardinale) after the death of his father Abdelaziz (Lofti Drizri), and finds sex and love with Sara's handsome handyman Bilal (Salim Kechiouche). "The String" has been criticized for the virtues that make it unique. Neither Malik, nor Bilal dies, which in the minds of followers of "A Single Man" and "Brokeback Mountain" is the equivalent to going to hell.

http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7 (http://www.culturevulture.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=406:8-films-from-the-arab-film-festival-2010&catid=2:film&Itemid=7)

 ???

**Oh, this is so interesting!  I'm so interested in the Arab World's films; so many of these seem very fine.  I'm particularly interested in the films from the real Arab Middle East, and not those from North Africa.  That region has different viewpoints and customs reflected by its mainly Berber population.  Berbers are not Arab blood; they are descended from the original inhabitants of North Africa.

This is a wonderful thing, to have this festival.**

kathy   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 23, 2010, 07:15:12 PM
I wish we could be protected by "bloggers" who know nothing whatever of what they speak.**

I can stop posting these articles when I find them if that helps.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 23, 2010, 08:30:06 PM
To bcj: 

**Oh no, you can't do that either.  When you post them, it shows how stupid they really are. 
I suppose I'm just too enamored of BBM and the boys.  It's hard for me to actually read these dumb bloggers' sites.   
Believe me, it's not you; it's me.  I am the one who should stop reading them!**

kathy   
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 24, 2010, 03:55:05 AM
I can stop posting these articles when I find them if that helps.

nope!  Keep on posting!   ;D
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sason on November 24, 2010, 03:54:41 PM
**What a jerk this blogger is!  Another one who obviously never saw BBM and never intended to, yet "comments" on it.  I shouldn't have read this blogger's post; all it does is make me angry.  And this blog, by a so-called know-it-all (?) is so full of errors and judgements that it should be dismissed entirely.  I wish we could be protected by "bloggers" who know nothing whatever of what they speak.**

kathy   >:(

Of course we can't allow people to express judgements....   ::)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 24, 2010, 04:50:38 PM
**Well, maybe I over-reacted when I wrote "should be dismissed entirely".  As I stated, I'm too enamored of BBM and the boys. 
But I do stand by the other things I wrote.  I think the Internet should be protected from bloggers; they make such false statements on anything & everything.  And today's the day I start ignoring them completely.  Honest.**

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on November 24, 2010, 05:06:48 PM
I quite like reading bloggers who didn't understand Brokeback Mountain, or hated it, or missed the point entirely. It makes me feel superior and full of righteous indignation, and I can rant and rave.
I enjoy doing that!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 24, 2010, 05:15:09 PM
I quite like reading bloggers who didn't understand Brokeback Mountain, or hated it, or missed the point entirely. It makes me feel superior and full of righteous indignation, and I can rant and rave.
I enjoy doing that!

(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/tu2.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on November 24, 2010, 05:21:30 PM
**I like it too.**

kathy   :)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 24, 2010, 09:04:09 PM
Peoples Choice Movie Poll

Which of these Jake Gyllenhaal movies is your favorite?

http://www.peopleschoice.com/pca/polls/poll.jsp?pollId=64500007 (http://www.peopleschoice.com/pca/polls/poll.jsp?pollId=64500007)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on November 25, 2010, 12:14:02 AM
I quite like reading bloggers who didn't understand Brokeback Mountain, or hated it, or missed the point entirely. It makes me feel superior and full of righteous indignation, and I can rant and rave.
I enjoy doing that!

This made me laugh.  :D  When I'm in the mood for some righteous indignation, there's a particular newspaper I read which is guaranteed to provide the goods.  It can be much more fun than reading something which supports my view!

I didn't read the particular post as being anti-Brokeback Mountain.   It seemed to me that the author had hoped the film might be the start of a big change in the way LGBTQ people (and sex in particular) are shown in Hollywood, and is disappointed that there's still a lack of mainstream gay films.  He's also saying that American audiences were shocked by the mild sex in BBM (were they?), while British audiences had been watching more explicit stuff for years.  I suppose he's just looking at the film with different expectations. 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on November 25, 2010, 07:26:39 AM
(http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss323/Euler5853/Thanksgiving/thanksg2.gif)

Happy Thanksgiving!

Today I am thankful for "our" movie.

I'm thankful for the forum and the
opportunities it's given to me.

I'm thankful for the friendships that
have formed here.

I'm thankful for the members I've met,
and those that I haven't, who keep
this forum busy, and spend their time
here with each other!

May the upcoming holiday season give
you all happiness!

Chuck


(http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k463/dcfmod/CopyofAIDSWalk2010081.jpg)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 27, 2010, 02:15:02 AM
Review: Wainwright sings of love and death
 
Performer pays tribute to his mother in first Canadian show in almost a year


(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj282/SanFranciscoJohn/RW1.jpg)
Quote

RUFUS WAINWRIGHT

With Teddy Thompson


When: Friday night

Where: The Centre in Vancouver for Performing Arts

VANCOUVER — Complex, elegant and heartbreaking.

Those words serve to describe not only Rufus Wainwright’s latest song cycle, All Days Are Nights: Songs For Lulu, but also the man himself.

And Friday night at the Centre in Vancouver for Performing Arts, Wainwright brought the material — largely dedicated to the memory of his late mother, Canadian folk icon Kate McGarrigle — back on home soil for the first time in almost a year.

Entering stage left, garbed in a long, dark dress topped with a large, feathered upper-body apparatus recalling silent-era films and the opera, Wainwright took his place solo at the piano for the first half of his two-hour performance.

Backed by nothing but the sparse visual design of artist Douglas Gordon and his own blinking eyes popping on screen, Wainwright was spellbinding, his songs inducing a flood of emotion that flowed from the stage onto the audience.




Quote
The second half of the evening would find Thompson joining Wainwright in a much breezier setting for two beautiful duet renditions: The Maker Makes (from Brokeback Mountain) and Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah.




Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Review+Wainwright+sings+love+death/3891845/story.html#ixzz16TCr7dvM
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on November 29, 2010, 04:09:23 PM
On NPR's Fresh Air today there was an interview with Anne Hathaway. She not only discussed the most recent movie, but also her motivation in BBM during the phone call with Ennis, specifically about the tire iron.

http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7060034

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on November 29, 2010, 04:11:46 PM
On NPR's Fresh Air today there was an interview with Anne Hathaway. She not only discussed the most recent movie, but also her motivation in BBM during the phone call with Ennis, specifically about the tire iron.

http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7060034



Fritz

I'm at work and can't listen. What did she say???

PM Me
please
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on November 30, 2010, 01:35:11 AM
Thank God she said what she did - I was so relieved.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on November 30, 2010, 08:02:11 AM
On NPR's Fresh Air today there was an interview with Anne Hathaway. She not only discussed the most recent movie, but also her motivation in BBM during the phone call with Ennis, specifically about the tire iron.

http://www.npr.org/rss/podcast/podcast_detail.php?siteId=7060034





Why don't those of you who have heard it go ahead and discuss it?  this is not a spoiler situation.  No need to be mysterious, and some people may not be able to hear it.

I'm just curious but no time to listen.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on November 30, 2010, 08:24:08 AM

Why don't those of you who have heard it go ahead and discuss it?  this is not a spoiler situation.  No need to be mysterious, and some people may not be able to hear it.

I'm just curious but no time to listen.

The part about BBM is fairly near the beginning (at about 9 minutes). Fritz posted a different link which worked for me - here it is:

This link might be better. I know Kim listened to it in France.

http://www.npr.org/2010/11/24/131566903/anne-hathaway-from-princesses-to-passion



The main thing was that AL made Anne aware of both possibilities without telling her what his own belief was: the tire-iron or the tire rim.  She played it both ways and doesn't know how the tapes were finally merged by Ang in the film. She said that it was "important for the ambiguity to remain - it is the strength of that scene and what is heart-breaking about it".

She also spoke of her gay brother, and how her family left the Catholic church when he came out.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on November 30, 2010, 11:06:50 AM
Thanks Cally!

That is really great, IMO -- she finally is speaking about it, and she found a way to express it without giving any answer.

Even if she has a definitive position, what she believes would not change the ambiguity (although some might believe it somehow influences the truth of the story) but even if Lureen were a real person, she may or may not "know" the truth -- just like Ennis, she lives with some open space.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on December 01, 2010, 05:03:23 PM
**I am really confused.  In the past I've read many times that AH admitted she spoke to Ennis with the fact that she knew she was lying about the "tire rim accident".

Honestly, I did read this several times.  She stated she played the scene as "Lureen knew" she was lying to Ennis.**

kathy 
p.s.  I've also read that AL showed the gay-bashing murder scene in quick flashback because he did not want to "knock the audience over the head with the murder of Jack"; that's also why he removed the scene, which is still shown in the trailer, of the mean guys (later to be gay-bashers) at a garage seeing Jack.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on December 01, 2010, 05:09:15 PM
kathy -

I have never heard that Anne Hathaway discussed the scene with Heath that way, or that she ever hinted, in any way, what she was thinking.  Whenever I have heard her talk about it, she gave the same answer she gave on Oprah -- basically that she didn't answer whether Lureen knew or not.

Which IMO is right, even if the actress plays it one way or the other, that doesn't change the ambiguity.

Wasn't there something about Heath being willing to talk to her on the phone during filming -- because their scenes were filmed separately?  But it's not really a scene she and Heath acted together.

(what you wrote about the tire iron scene, that is the same as I have heard as well. )
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on December 01, 2010, 05:20:21 PM
**Well, I have read it many times going yrs. back.  And also - Heath offered to (and did ) call AH (Lureen) during the scene with help.  She admitted that, and also stated that was very kind of him to do that.  He was on one end; and she was on the other end during the scene.**

kathy
Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here.  Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.** 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: tonydude on December 02, 2010, 01:06:23 AM
Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here.  Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.**  
 Kathy, hey there, good friend! Yes it does seem sometimes like someone may be anti-Jack, or anti-Ennis, in the various discussions.  I've noticed people can tend to sympathize more with one than the other, and this derives, perhaps, from their personal identification with different aspects of the two guys and their troubles.  That can sometimes lead to very strong opinions, but I haven't seen anyone abandon the love story itself.  Besides, if everybody agreed, the forum would shut down, as there would be very little more to say.
 You have always seemed to be in the idealistic camp, and forgive both of them their failures (as they generally did each other), and I love that point of view, but when a thread gets lively, somebody will always answer any post that may appear to be harsh or cynical, so, not to worry.
 Meanwhile, some of us are a bunch of romantics, aren't we  :) ?  I know I am.  But we are dealing with a writer who snookered us with grizzly bear attitudes, only to mop us all over the floor with what real love can be; and sometimes it isn't pretty.  And so the differing levels of anger, at times.  Those that seem subtly angry, are only so because they care.
 Don't be disappointed. Just keep posting about that true love that may have been shabby, at times, but rose above so many others.  And, oh, yeah.....I agree with you on your last line  :). That is a busy thread, too, and I'll try to keep up with it, as best as I can.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 02, 2010, 01:55:33 AM
^^^^^

Much what I was going to say, Tony.  I'm a romantic at heart too, and I have no harsh feelings about either Ennis or Jack, Kathy.  I accept that there is no happy ending, but I would dearly love to believe that Jack could never have quitted. However I'm also a realist, and can read the story objectively.  AP has created characters so cleverly that we can believe that they do have human frailties and that Jack could have been pushed too far.  But I think that part of the whole power of the story is that it's deliberately left ambiguous, as are the other points that we debate so passionately. That was why I was relieved that Anne Hathaway, in this interview at least, said nothing to counteract this when talking about the Phonecall scene - that AL had done different takes, some with with Lureen believing in the tire iron, some with the opposing point of view, and that she herself was not aware of how he finally put the scene together.

From a literary POV, I love the ambiguities (though I found them hard to take at first - in fact I didn't accept that they were there), and I want them to remain.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: CellarDweller115 on December 02, 2010, 03:52:06 AM
Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here.  Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.**

I've never found BBM getting "picked on"......people have different ways to view different topics.  It's what keeps discussion going.

They may be "picking apart" the story from different angles, but I've not seen any (in my opinion) that I would consider hurtful or disrespectful to the book or movie.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on December 02, 2010, 05:09:26 AM
**Well, I have read it many times going yrs. back.  And also - Heath offered to (and did ) call AH (Lureen) during the scene with help.  She admitted that, and also stated that was very kind of him to do that.  He was on one end; and she was on the other end during the scene.**

kathy
Maybe things I did read are all turned around now; it seems like BBM is getting "picked on" lately by more than a few here.  Even in the "quit" discussion, I've never read such things as anti-Jack or anti-Ennis as is being posted now regarding their life-long love.
Neither one would or could ever quit the other.** 

Don't stress, Kathy. I've read or heard that about Anne and Heath and the phone call too. Although as usual I have no attribution for it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on December 02, 2010, 05:25:02 AM
Re: Quit / No Quit:

We all love this film, we have been talking about it here for 5 years. Desecra and I have been "hammer and tongs" for a lot of that time on that particular thread. We have different interpretations of the ambiguities in both film and short story. We try not to take it personally, and have great respect for each other and the views we express.
I feel sure we would both like to find some undiscovered nugget in the text that unequivocally proves our point of view, but it isn't going to happen, so we both resort to being as persuasive as possible.
Because we can find no confirmation of our personal views we interpret the story from our own personal experiences and psychology and what we think is most likely to have happened.
It in no way reflects on our love for Jack and Ennis or on the story or film though.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fofol on December 02, 2010, 06:03:44 AM
**I am really confused.  In the past I've read many times that AH admitted she spoke to Ennis with the fact that she knew she was lying about the "tire rim accident".

Honestly, I did read this several times.  She stated she played the scene as "Lureen knew" she was lying to Ennis.**

kathy  
p.s.  I've also read that AL showed the gay-bashing murder scene in quick flashback because he did not want to "knock the audience over the head with the murder of Jack"; that's also why he removed the scene, which is still shown in the trailer, of the mean guys (later to be gay-bashers) at a garage seeing Jack.

Totally agree here, Kathy - AH has been quoted many, many times in this Forum saying that she played the scene as lying to Ennis.  Everything else is speculation.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 02, 2010, 08:02:45 AM
Well, AH did say she played it both ways. Perhaps lying about the accident was what she personally believes - or what Ang Lee told her? 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Desecra on December 02, 2010, 08:47:52 AM
Kathy, I remember reading that Anne Hathaway had said Lureen was lying, although I don't think she specified what Lureen was lying about.   I can't remember where I read it.   Anne does talk about the phone call in the Oprah interview from years ago - Oprah asked if Lureen "knew", Anne said that she did, but Jake G disagreed.   I think the question was about whether Lureen knew Jack was gay.  Anyway, it's interesting that the actors seem to have different takes on the story.

If you mean my posts on the "quit" thread, then you've misunderstood - I'm not anti either Jack or Ennis.   They do have flaws (their attitudes to women, for instance) but I have a lot of sympathy for both characters - perhaps slightly more for Ennis, because he I feel he was dealt a crappier hand to start with, in some ways.   I feel I'm defending them over on the "quit" thread.   In my view, the only problem in their relationship was homophobia.  I think we're told about two characters who would have had a lovely, happy life together if it hadn't been for that one factor - which ends up ruining both their lives.   They were deeply wronged by the society they found themselves in, in a personal way (Ennis blames himself at the end - we never really do see him, or Jack, blaming the world around them for being homophobic.   That's part of the tragedy, that they're brought up to accept and internalise homophobia). 

So I come at it from the opposite angle.  Their love is a given, the homophobia is the story.  I feel that if the problems in their relationship are ignored, then the homophobia is being ignored, and so it seems that they weren't so deeply wronged.  (For instance, Ennis's difficulty in accepting the relationship is about homophobia - it's because Jack's a man, not because he doesn't love Jack enough). 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Ellen (tellyouwhat) on December 02, 2010, 03:22:18 PM
I think I interpreted whatever I heard AH say about the scene in a way that seemed she was reluctant to really answer the question -- and even in the link we just shared, it seems she is still guarding the secret.

Heath being on the other end of the phone with her is not the same as Heath acting the scene with her, right?  He was not in a phone booth in a small town when AH acted her scene.  The two sides of the conversation were shot at different times.

I am only relating what I believed her to say -- if you all have heard different then maybe that's how it was -- but then it would seem to contradict what she just said in the interview.

*******

I appreciate everybody's explanation of quit/no quit but that conversation should go back to the designated thread. (http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=9841.msg1980820;boardseen#new)

Thanks
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on December 02, 2010, 07:48:28 PM
 Kathy, hey there, good friend! Yes it does seem sometimes like someone may be anti-Jack, or anti-Ennis, in the various discussions.  I've noticed people can tend to sympathize more with one than the other, and this derives, perhaps, from their personal identification with different aspects of the two guys and their troubles.  That can sometimes lead to very strong opinions, but I haven't seen anyone abandon the love story itself.  Besides, if everybody agreed, the forum would shut down, as there would be very little more to say.
 You have always seemed to be in the idealistic camp, and forgive both of them their failures (as they generally did each other), and I love that point of view, but when a thread gets lively, somebody will always answer any post that may appear to be harsh or cynical, so, not to worry.
 Meanwhile, some of us are a bunch of romantics, aren't we  :) ?  I know I am.  But we are dealing with a writer who snookered us with grizzly bear attitudes, only to mop us all over the floor with what real love can be; and sometimes it isn't pretty.  And so the differing levels of anger, at times.  Those that seem subtly angry, are only so because they care.
 Don't be disappointed. Just keep posting about that true love that may have been shabby, at times, but rose above so many others.  And, oh, yeah.....I agree with you on your last line  :). That is a busy thread, too, and I'll try to keep up with it, as best as I can.

 :)  **Hey tony, my good friend!! 

Thanks for your above answer; you're correct.  Yes, I will keep posting about E&J's true love.  None of us are anti-ennis or anti-jack; we really love them both too much and feel so strongly about them, to the point where I just want them to be happy together!  (I'm such a romantic when it comes to those two...the great love...).   

kathy   ;)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on December 02, 2010, 08:04:27 PM
 :)  Hi to all of you who contributed replies to my post:

I respect your responses, every one.  Naturally I agree more with some and less with others.  Yes, like I said to Tony, I am in the "romantic" and "idealistic" camp when it comes to E&J; I'll keep to that always.  But I know all of us love them both and care so much for both of them.  Not in any sort of "anti-" type way, but in a good way.

Maybe I should just leave it at that.  After all, that's what brought us here, anyway - the way we feel about the beautiful, lovely Brokeback Mountain and the two people who are effected so immensely by one summer there throughout their entire lives.

kathy     
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on December 03, 2010, 10:18:03 AM
I'm a romantic at heart too, and I have no harsh feelings about either Ennis or Jack, Kathy.  I accept that there is no happy ending, but I would dearly love to believe that Jack could never have quitted. However I'm also a realist, and can read the story objectively. 

There's no completely "objective" reading of a work of literature; that would be more applicable to a textbook. And again, this isn't a math class.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on December 03, 2010, 10:19:32 AM
I've never found BBM getting "picked on"......people have different ways to view different topics.  It's what keeps discussion going.

They may be "picking apart" the story from different angles, but I've not seen any (in my opinion) that I would consider hurtful or disrespectful to the book or movie.

Some of the preference for either Ennis or Jack -- or a critical attitude toward them -- might be a reflection of real-life experience with someone with either of those traits. After all, we all bring our experiences to it.

Because we can find no confirmation of our personal views we interpret the story from our own personal experiences and psychology and what we think is most likely to have happened.  It in no way reflects on our love for Jack and Ennis or on the story or film though.

That pretty much sums it up!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 03, 2010, 10:37:54 AM
There's no completely "objective" reading of a work of literature; that would be more applicable to a textbook. And again, this isn't a math class.

I wasn't saying I read it completely objectively.  Although I find it diffficult, as I always tend to react emotionally to things, if I want to contribute to a discussion about what AP is saying to us I try to read the words on the page in a more detached critical way. I don't think maths comes into it.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on December 03, 2010, 11:21:45 AM
I wasn't saying I read it completely objectively.  Although I find it diffficult, as I always tend to react emotionally to things, if I want to contribute to a discussion about what AP is saying to us I try to read the words on the page in a more detached critical way.

Good point. 
Marge also brings up an interesting thought.
Can one objectively "experience" a work of art that is intrinsically subjective? (i.e. literature?).

One can, I suppose but it certainly takes the fun away.
Sandy, recently and on another thread, recommended a book entitled "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer. 
Fischer, like AP, is a trained historian in the Annales School and the book is a remarkable reflection of the Annales technique of exploring history.
It is an "objective" work to an extent but, of course, Fischer brings his own "subjective" thoughts and ideas to his interpretation of the history he explores.
It is an interesting read but certainly not as entertaining, or perhaps entertaining in a different way, as BBM.
AP employs her historical training techniques in her research and then adopts fictional literature to interpret her findings and, of course, ends up with an intrinsically "subjective" work of art.

Critical analysis of any work of art, (theatre, painting, music, literature, film,) attempts to approach the subject objectively by measuring the work against a set of mutually agreed upon standards.  It is not an easy thing to do as evidenced by the imbalance of "reviewers" as opposed to "critics" in any given art form. 

Quote
In fiction, observations are given a reality that we can identify with, and the work can explore all the options desired by the author.

We can read or write a non-fiction account about the effects of hardship, abuse and poverty on a determined personality, or we can represent those things as Hardy did in Tess of the D’Ubervilles.  We can read or write about disappointed romantic expectations and how they might lead to obsessive behaviors, or we can represent those things as Flaubert did in Madame Bovary.  These things, as George MacDonald said, “show truth in beauty,” and they allow us not only to observe but to feel and experience.
If you think of parallel worlds existing just a step away from each other, fiction takes a step away from this world and represents reality in people, places and experiences “over there” as opposed to here. Fiction takes what could be a non-fiction account of some reality and changes the purpose and presentation from observation and commentary to observation and experience. Fiction allow you to be the “experiencer” rather than, say, Anne Frank or a soldier wounded in the trenches of Verdun, France.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 03, 2010, 11:31:44 AM
Good point. 
Marge also brings up an interesting thought.
Can one objectively "experience" a work of art that is intrinsically subjective? (i.e. literature?).
One can, I suppose but it certainly takes the fun away.
Sandy, recently and on another thread, recommended a book entitled "Albion's Seed" by David Hackett Fischer. 
Fischer, like AP, is a trained historian in the Annales School and the book is a remarkable reflection of the Annales technique of exploring history.
It is an "objective" work to an extent but, of course, Fischer brings his own "subjective" thoughts and ideas to his interpretation of the history he explores.
It is an interesting read but certainly not as entertaining, or perhaps entertaining in a different way, as BBM.
AP employs her historical training techniques in her research and then adopts fictional literature to interpret her findings and, of course, ends up with an intrinsically "subjective" work of art.

Critical analysis of any work of art, (theatre, painting, music, literature, film,) attempts to approach the subject objectively by measuring the work against a set of mutually agreed upon standards.  It is not an easy thing to do as evidenced by the imbalance of "reviewers" as opposed to "critics" in any given art form. 


Intersting comments, Gary. Perhaps you can observe it rather than experience it?  But then I suppose the observation is itself an experience.....

And one can experience literature in so many different ways - often simultaneously.

I think I may be sorry I embarked on this :D.  And I have to go out now.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: janjo on December 03, 2010, 11:44:15 AM
No two people will ever agree on the subjective analysis of a work of art.

When art work is marked at college it is done by two independent lecturers internally, and is then externally marked too.

One mans meat is another man's poison.

This goes for literature too. There are certain standards that have to be met, other than that it is often a matter of opinion.
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: garyd on December 03, 2010, 11:48:47 AM
  And I have to go out now.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
And unless I am totally mistaken you are off to participate in yet another art form in which you
will objectively approach the notes while simultaneously adhering to the subjective interpretation of the director?  ;D ;D ;D
Have fun and be careful on that driveway!
g
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: fritzkep on December 03, 2010, 02:19:50 PM
No two people will ever agree on the subjective analysis of a work of art.

When art work is marked at college it is done by two independent lecturers internally, and is then externally marked too.

One mans meat is another man's poison.

This goes for literature too. There are certain standards that have to be met, other than that it is often a matter of opinion.

Or one bacterium's phosphorus is another bacterium's arsenic.

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 03, 2010, 02:45:43 PM
And unless I am totally mistaken you are off to participate in yet another art form in which you
will objectively approach the notes while simultaneously adhering to the subjective interpretation of the director?  ;D ;D ;D
Have fun and be careful on that driveway!
g

I did and I did and I was :).
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Marge_Innavera on December 05, 2010, 04:29:37 AM
No two people will ever agree on the subjective analysis of a work of art.

When art work is marked at college it is done by two independent lecturers internally, and is then externally marked too.

One mans meat is another man's poison.

This goes for literature too. There are certain standards that have to be met, other than that it is often a matter of opinion.

I suspect no one will ever find a perfect balance between subjective interpretation and objective analysis.  Maybe one road to reconciling them would be the principle of 'have your subjective opinion but back it up with examples from the work itself and with clear arguments.'
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 05, 2010, 12:49:51 PM
Well, AH did say she played it both ways. Perhaps lying about the accident was what she personally believes - or what Ang Lee told her? 

Ang Lee: At that time, it's told from Ennis's point of view. You have no choice but to see his imagination. I think it's clear to me that his imagination resorted to his bad memory as a child. Why he goes there is helped by the wife's performance. Anne Hathaway, her performance, I think she's definitely angry and lying about the truth.

http://www.darkhorizons.com/interviews/156/ang-lee-for-brokeback-mountain- (http://www.darkhorizons.com/interviews/156/ang-lee-for-brokeback-mountain-)
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on December 05, 2010, 04:51:39 PM
**I remember reading this several times.  AL always had it right.  Yes!**

kathy 
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: andy/Claude on December 17, 2010, 02:54:09 PM
I've just come across this review of BBM on blu-ray. It's more than a year old but good to read none the less.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2059/brokebackmountain.html
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Heath4Ever on December 19, 2010, 01:19:03 PM
Hi folks

I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live.  Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any.  Listen to it - it is wonderful!

Best wishes

Glen (aka Heath4Ever)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY

Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: BayCityJohn on December 19, 2010, 01:26:43 PM
Very nice ^^^^
 And a very different ending  :o
Thank you!
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: Sara B on December 19, 2010, 02:08:24 PM
Hi folks

I've just come across this fabulous recording on Youtube of Gustavo Santaolalalla playing the Brokeback theme live.  Wasn't sure where to post this but guess this place is as good as any.  Listen to it - it is wonderful!

Best wishes

Glen (aka Heath4Ever)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtXOMp9JfHY



Wonderful.

When I hear those opening notes something physical happens in my chest - I wonder what is actually going on in there. I would say it was my heart turning over, but that's not really very likely.....
Title: Re: BBM General Discussion 2
Post by: kathy on December 19, 2010, 09:19:55 PM
I've just come across this review of BBM on blu-ray. It's more than a year old but good to read none the less.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2059/brokebackmountain.html

**Andy, what a terrific review this is; so insightful too.  I'm so glad you let us see it.**

kathy
p.s.  "Ultimately, their repressed love exerts such a powerful need to express itself that..."  (just a small part of what is written, which makes such an impact on me).   
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