The Ultimate Brokeback Forum

Author Topic: All other scenes including truck scenes, Thanksgiving scenes, alley scenes, and other  (Read 534548 times)

Offline sapstar

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I only said it colors his devotion, not that it supplants it.

I've no doubt that Ennis loves his daughters.  But he's also a man ruled by his fears, and his life with Alma and the two daughters he had with her gives him cover on the street when all those people are looking at him -- like they know his secret.

And, afterall, we're all just guessing here.  You're relationship with, and devotion to, your daughter sounds wonderful.  But it's no more representative of every father/daughter relationship than is my opinion a reflection of every childless gay man.  You are happily married to a wife you love.  You're not caught in quite the same conundrum as Ennis.

Thank you Scot for the precision.

... and by the way, was not judging you, but reacting to the comment

And you are soooo right about "we're all just guessing here".   That's why I get chuckles everytime I read someone write with all the conviction in the world about what Jack or Ennis really were, or what that comment or that facial expression meant.  When you read the story, you write your own movie script in your head.  Brokeback Mountain, the movie, is the script by Ang, Larry and Diana.

My own conlusion to the sage is what I "wrote" from the story.

JP

Offline shipwrecked

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" It is always Jack wanting more. And who takes care of him? Ennis. Throughout the movie, Jack always wants more, and Ennis gives him all that he possibly can while remaining true to the last part of himself he can (a good cowboy and a father who provides for his children). Jack would take that from of him as well if Ennis would let him."
--Peteinportland

But Pete, while i agree with almost everything you've (ever)_ said, it is Jack who takes care, who says "it's all right" over and over.  Jack who nurtures, caresses, holds Ennis almost every time.  only in the dosy embrace scene does Ennis mother Jack.  Jack may want more, but Jack gives more too. Probably doesn't love more, but gives more.


Offline shipwrecked

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"I thought about this too, but wondered if Ennis would really let that happen.  When Jack drives up after the divorce, Ennis is concerned about what someone driving past on the road might think while he and Jack are talking.  In Ennis' mind, spending all that time together would have been a little too close to living together, and I think Ennis would have rejected it as readily as he rejected every other suggestion Jack made.

I can't help but sympathize with the romantic in Jack.  He needs Ennis in a way that Ennis never comprehends.

I also wonder if Ennis' devotion to his daughters is not partly colored by the traditional, hetero, family screen it provides for him -- something Jack was always ready to toss aside". (Scott 5636)

I agree completely.

Offline shipwrecked

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This movie has let me to re-read this poem.  thought you all might like to re-read it too.


Hope is the thing with feathers -- Emily Dickenson

HOPE is the thing with feathers   
That perches in the soul,   
And sings the tune without the words,   
And never stops at all,   
 
And sweetest in the gale is heard;           5
And sore must be the storm   
That could abash the little bird   
That kept so many warm.   
 
I ’ve heard it in the chillest land,   
And on the strangest sea;           10
Yet, never, in extremity,   
It asked a crumb of me.   

Offline Dal

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ACTUALLY

Estas perdiendo el tiempo,pensando,pensando translates as "YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME PONDERING, PONDERING"

The nuance of the "pensando" which literally means thinking is more along the lines of pondering.

Okay!  So

Estas perdiendo el tiempo, pensando, pensando
Por lo que Tu mas quieras
hasta cuando, hasta cuando


"You're wasting your time, pondering
pondering what it is you want most --
'Til when?  When?"

Got it.

Dal
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Offline Cowboysnkisses

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Well, I'm glad there are some people taking up for Ennis. I DO think Ennis defines his boundaries because of his fears, but all in all, I think Ennis was by far the more honest of the two characters. As already stated, Ennis never leads Jack on in regards to the terms of their relationship. In fact, he tells Jack this more than once. Remember the line, "I already told you, it ain't gonna be that way. I'm stuck with what I got." He then goes on to tell Jack, "Two guys living together? No. We can get together every once in awhile way the hell out in the back of nowhere..."    And this is the way Ennis defined the relationship for Jack and the way it was for 20 years. Ennis never, not once, led Jack to expect anything more than that.

Remember Jack was the romantic. Lureen says so on the phone with Ennis. "But knowing Jack, it might be some pretend place where the bluebirds sing and there is a whiskey spring."  Jack's father says so when he tells Ennis, "But like most a Jack's ideas it never come to pass." Proulx makes sure we understand the heart of a romantic beats in Jack. Even though Ennis was always upfront with Jack and very clear of his boundaries, Jack still dreams a romantic's dreams. I'm sorry, but I personally think that a partner so clearly defining his boundaries is the opposite of any sort of emotional abuse. Ennis gave Jack everything he told him he would. He even told him, "ain't no reins on this one" signaling to Jack that as long as he was willing to accept the limits, then their relationship could go on forever.

The other thing that no one seems to mention is that Jack certainly had other options with Ennis and with his own life. Why does Jack wait four years to find Ennis?

--He tried the very next year when he went back to Aguirre's office to look for work, and for Ennis.

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Why doesn't Jack ever divorce Lureen and move closer to Ennis so maybe they can spend more time together?

--He offers to do just that to live with Ennis, but Ennis refuses.

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Why is it that Ennis always has to give up his life in order to be with Jack? Ennis quits his jobs, so they can spend time together. Jack accepts this even though he knows Ennis is poor and has a family.

--Jack only learns during their last time together that Ennis would in the past quit his job to go away with him.  Ennis says he can't do it to be with him in August because he can't quit jobs anymore.  However, we learn later that he can do it for love, as he decides to do for Alma Jr.'s wedding.

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If Jack lived in Wyoming they could spend more time together and do it on Ennis' normal days off, so they could see one another without Ennis quitting the jobs.

--Ennis says they can only get together a few times a year.  His paranoia was such that it would not let him do more even if Jack were nearby.  After all, he sends Jack away without so much as a kiss when he comes by after learning of the divorce even though they could have met at a motel for a few hours--before or after Ennis had taken the girls back to Alma.  Jack certainly could have waited a few days; he was expecting to be there for some time anyway.  But Ennis doesn't show so much as a hint of interest in that.  What we see here is that Ennis, far from always accommodating Jack, would only see Jack on his own terms and according to his own plans.  It caused Jack great pain and could so easily have been avoided.

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Jack asks Ennis to move to Texas away from his children.

--Jack suggests more than once that they take a place by themselves.  It's clear from the scene with Ennis and Jack's parents that Jack had contemplated their taking over his family's place.  Jack's father says of Jack: "'Ennis del Mar,' he used a say, 'I'm goin a bring him up here one a these days and we'll lick this damn ranch into shape.'  He had some half-baked idea the two a you was goin a move up here, build a log cabin and help me run this ranch and bring it up.'"  However, Ennis continues his refusals even to consider their being together more than a week at a time a few times a year.  This eliminates another possibilty that would have been so much better for Jack than what they did: Jack's staying the whole summer at his folks' place and visiting Ennis in the evenings and weekends.

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Jack throws a fit because Ennis can't get time off a job he needs to keep (to pay child support) even though Jack stays in a cushy situation 1200 miles away where he has no financial worries and can take off when he wants. Jack tells Ennis he wants to quit him, even though we never hear Ennis make such a nasty comment to Jack.

--Nothing nasty from Ennis?  Jack says he wishes he could quit Ennis after Ennis has threatened to kill him.  The threat comes because he doesn't want Jack to have sex with any other man but him partly out of extreme jealousy, partly out of his need to continue in his self-deception about his sexuality.  Ennis wants Jack to deny his own deep needs and to live just the sort of life he leads--and be satisfied with that.

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Jack pressures Ennis to give him more than Ennis can give to him. Jack shows a willingness to toss aside his son for Ennis, but Ennis refuses to cut his daughters from his life, even for Jack.

--Jack pushes and tries to guide Ennis, no doubt.  But such pressure does have a positive effect on Ennis, however slow it may be.  He needs to be pushed and led in order to change and develop.  If Jack hadn't guided Ennis' hand that first night in the tent on Brokeback, they might never have loved each other.

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In my view, Jack always demands and demands from Ennis in spite of what Ennis makes clear he can give, and really, even though he says he is willling to do so, never gives up anything much in return. Who is it that loses the most due to this relationship (not counting the emotional hardship which affects both of them equally)? It ain't Jack Twist.

--Jack gives up his chance of a permanent relationship with someone else in order to stick with the possibility of Ennis.  I'd say that's giving up quite a lot.

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We even see this on the mountain. Who is it that won't eat beans? Who hates sleeping with the sheep in the pup tent that smells like cat piss? Who insists on illegally killing an elk? It is always Jack wanting more. And who takes care of him? Ennis. Throughout the movie, Jack always wants more, and Ennis gives him all that he possibly can while remaining true to the last part of himself he can (a good cowboy and a father who provides for his children). Jack would take that from of him as well if Ennis would let him.

--I think that's very unfair to Jack.  What makes you think that Jack would want to take that from him?  And it's not as if Ennis is raising his children.  He says he only sees them a weekend a month.  That's certainly an arrangement that Jack should have no difficulty accommodating.  As for child support, nothing that Jack suggests would jeopardize that.
 
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Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality.  I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.


--This I agree with wholeheartedly.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2006, 12:23:07 AM by Cowboysnkisses »
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Offline troyman

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The first time I saw it (up to 3, should be 4 by next week), I started to giggle out loud then caught myself and shut up fast.  But the song being played in the alley in Mexico is the theme of the British sit-com called "Coupling" and I recognized it the second I heard it. 

I like the meaning of the lyrics and it's certainly an appropriate song for that moment in the film, but it just caught me off guard the first time.

Offline peteinportland

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Cowboysnkisses, let's just say you and I see things very differently.

I just don't think Ennis is the bad guy here. I don't think Jack is the bad guy either. It is easy for people to relate to Jack's dream, but I think people fail to see that Ennis wants it just as badly. He just can't figure a way to get it, and Jack's solutions are not realistic for the place and time that the two of them live in (and as I point out, I think Jack knows this as well as Ennis).

I think the movie and book take great pains to show Ennis as a decent man and a good companion to Jack. There is a lot of give and take in their relationship. It befuddles me why some want to see Ennis as bad and Jack as mostly heroic (and maybe innocent). These characters are not simplistic: there is good and bad in both, and they are rich in complexity. My posts about Jack are to show some of that complexity in Jack. Both men cause their share of pain and make mistakes.

I think what some fail to realize is that Ennis CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT live with another man in Wyoming and that to take him out of that place and away from his family and his way of life would kill him as surely as the tire iron. Ennis tries very hard to find a middle way, and he gives up a lot to get the little bit of happiness that he can have with Jack.
 
I don't have time to answer your thoughts very throughly at this point (and will not for a couple of days). However, thank you for the very long and detailed post. It adds to what I think is a very worthwhile discussion.

Offline peteinportland

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The first time I saw it (up to 3, should be 4 by next week), I started to giggle out loud then caught myself and shut up fast.  But the song being played in the alley in Mexico is the theme of the British sit-com called "Coupling" and I recognized it the second I heard it. 

I like the meaning of the lyrics and it's certainly an appropriate song for that moment in the film, but it just caught me off guard the first time.

Wow. I learn something new on this Board every day. Layers upon layers. That Ang Lee is sly.

Offline pdxbennett

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Don't get me wrong. I love the character of Jack Twist, and I feel his need and his pain. I also understand the romantic and the dreamer who often finds the dream and the wish safer and more secure than the hard, cold reality.  I don't begrudge Jack for what he wanted, nor for what Ennis gives up for him. However, in my opinion, to suggest that Jack is a poor victim who has to endure a lifetime of emotional abuse at the hands of Ennis is a far cry from the truth of the movie I watched and the book I read. Both of these men are victims, but not of one another. They are victims of a society that says two men can't love and can't live together and remain part of their community or remain true to the men they are supposed to be.

I don't agree with the statement that "Both of these men are victims, but not of one another." 

Ennis has to be held accountable for his violent homophobia and the results of it that manifested in the lives of all around him including him own.  Simply because Jack excepted Ennis's stingy restrictions does not absolve Ennis of the responsibility of his choice.  I am sorry but a couple of weeks out of fifty two was not fair to either of them.

Jack has to be held accountable for his choice to hang on to the dream of Ennis past the point of redemption.  Jack was ultimately responsible for the quality of  his own life.  Dreamer or not.

They had the intense love connection but they did not have much respect or compromise going for them.  To say they are not victims of each other is to say that they did not have any choices in the matter.   

Ennis did appear to eventually change.  To bad it took Jack's death to get him to that point.     Jack was considering a relationship with Randall to get the life that appeared to not be possible with Ennis.  What's to say that if maybe Jack had been less willing to oblige Ennis's restrictions and Ennis realized that he was going to lose Jack that he might have had the same epiphany that he did when Jack actually died. 

There are a million and one varients of possible outcomes that don't involve losing the only man you will ever love because of your own homophobia and losing your life because of your choice to steal some neighbor woman's husband.


Offline pdxbennett

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Ennis tries very hard to find a middle way, and he gives up a lot to get the little bit of happiness that he can have with Jack.

What middle way?  Ennis allowed one choice and that was a couple of "fishing" trips a year.  There was never any other options offered.

Offline gnash

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on the choice of "Quizas" and "Perhaps"

OMG - I swear - Ang Lee, music editors and staff ARE GENUISES!

It's amazing the song that parallels EXACTLY the GD bitch of the situation.

I never much paid attention to that, but now totally floored.

What a gem this movie is.

PLC (and others),

Make sure you check out the words to Melissa (now posted in the Score thread along with the words to this song). That song is also an OMG and shows remarkable genius. It so amazes me that there seems to be NOTHING wasted in this movie. A true work of art.

i would hope that the academy voters are aware of the genuis behind this movie, and remember to take that into consideration when watching the screener at home!!! sometimes i feel the members of this board should be allowed to vote, since we are getting so much insight into what makes this movie so GD remarkable! :D

pete, that's nice that the lyrics touched you so deeply. i wasn't sure i'd found the correct lyrics (to melissa) as i didn't pay much attention to the lyrics in that scene with cassie. such a wonderful scene, and like you say, nothing is wasted. for those that still feel that cassie scenes could or should have been cut from the movie altogether, i say, emphatically, no way!!

the perhaps perhaps song now holds much more meaning to me in the alleyscene.  i wish there was another soundtrack available! so much good music was left out on the original sountrack to brokeback mountain. i'd have taken perhaps perhaps over it's so easy (to fall in love) any day! ;)

"Brokeback is about a lost paradise, an Eden."  – Ang Lee


Offline zach

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When Ennis is retching the camera moves in a little and he moves his head and somehow you focus on the triangle of light between his body and arms.  I think that this portends the love triangle to come.

Offline Particle_Man6

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Interesting that Jack stands up to his father-in-law, but never to his father.
Straight but not narrow.

Offline 909dot

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The second truck scene with Jack driving all the way from Texas at news of the divorce was a hard one for me.  I think it is pretty realistic overall.  I will discuss that in a second.  I did, however, feel that the one issue with reality in the scene was that Ennis just dismissed him upon arrival.  That was not very consistent even for Ennis.  I mean, he may have told Jack that they wouldn't be together that way, but I am not sure he would have sent him back on the 1200 mile return drive right away.  It did not play very consistent there.


But if you remember, as the white truck passes by, Jack turns to Ennis and says "yeah, all right..." and Ennis says "Jack..." and Jack cuts him off in anger and turns away saying " Ill see ya next month then"...I would  love to know what Ennis was going to say...I think he was grasping for a way to say "don't go...and don't go away mad..." but the girls were in the truck, looking, I'm sure... and Ennis's paranoia gets the best of him once more...he is almost paralyzed in that scene... there is something to be said for the comfortableness he introduces Jack to his girls...I think to Ennis that was a big deal for him...

Todd
"maybe you should get outa there...move someplace different...maybe Texas."