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Author Topic: All other scenes including truck scenes, Thanksgiving scenes, alley scenes, and other  (Read 332977 times)

Online Sara B

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Just to add my welcome, colorado_jack. :)
Sara from England
“When we grow older still we’ll speak about those two young men as if they were two strangers..... And we’ll want to call it envy, because to call it regret would break our hearts.”

Call Me by Your Name, André Aciman.

Offline CellarDweller115

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Hello colorado_jack,

I felt your posts would work well in the thread "Ennis & Jack's relationship", so I quoted your post, and pasted it there.  I've also put my own reply up to it.

Please feel free to read and respond there!

http://ultimatebrokebackforum.com/index.php?topic=28390.msg2803426#msg2803426

Offline colorado_jack

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I have been trying to read through as many posts as possible without sacrificing too much of my free time, that's hard.  The problem I have is that once I read posts I wind up re-watching BBM with a new set of eyes.  Not sure if this point has already been made, but now I think I understand Alma Jr's response to Cassie's questions about the prospects of E settling down again.  AJs responses indicate to me that AJ understood her dad's relationship with JT at least with regards to their attachment to each other.  For example, AJ responses: 1) "he's not the marrying kind" which is an old time euphemism  for homosexual, and since Cassie didn't pick up on that, AJ told Cassie, "you're good enough" which I understand now to mean that she (Cassie) is a woman (actually any woman would do) which is good enough to provide E with a plausible claim to being straight.  My guess is that through Alma, AJ knows that JT is more than just a fishing buddy.

Offline colorado_jack

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Just another observation that as yet I have not seen in any of the posts.  I noticed that E uses his thumb to express emotions akin to affection, happiness, etc.  There are a number of scenes where he uses one or both of this thumbs to express his affection (or even how much affection he is feeling).

1). Wedding scene, he strokes Alma's cheek with his right thumb while kissing her.
2). Jack's first postcard, he uses two thumbs to rub the card (he's really happy).
3). E rubs Jenny's ear with his thumb while reciting his bronco story ("angel's wings").
4). E rubs Jack's coat with his thumb during the DE.
5). While holding Jack's shirt, he rubs it with his thumb in addition to bringing it up to his nose
6). During the last scene, he rubs the postcard with his right thumb as he is straightening it.

I also noticed that he never expressed anything like that with Cassie (since he was smoking while dancing with her, that would be difficult I guess) which makes me think he had no real interest in her.  The only time E's thumbe was used to rub Cassie was when she forced him to give her a foot massage, not exactly a spontaneous expression of affection.

Offline BlueAmber63

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                                                    ^^^

Stroking the cheek of the one he is kissing is a "Heath thing"....not an
Ennis thing. Have seen him kiss girlfriends...Michelle... and other female
actors he has appeared with .....he holds their face gently and strokes their
cheek with his thumb. Lovely.
Wanting him to come back... before anyone notices
part of the world has not moved...since he left.

Offline CellarDweller115

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Just another observation that as yet I have not seen in any of the posts.  I noticed that E uses his thumb to express emotions akin to affection, happiness, etc.  There are a number of scenes where he uses one or both of this thumbs to express his affection (or even how much affection he is feeling).

1). Wedding scene, he strokes Alma's cheek with his right thumb while kissing her.
2). Jack's first postcard, he uses two thumbs to rub the card (he's really happy).
3). E rubs Jenny's ear with his thumb while reciting his bronco story ("angel's wings").
4). E rubs Jack's coat with his thumb during the DE.
5). While holding Jack's shirt, he rubs it with his thumb in addition to bringing it up to his nose
6). During the last scene, he rubs the postcard with his right thumb as he is straightening it.

I also noticed that he never expressed anything like that with Cassie (since he was smoking while dancing with her, that would be difficult I guess) which makes me think he had no real interest in her.  The only time E's thumbe was used to rub Cassie was when she forced him to give her a foot massage, not exactly a spontaneous expression of affection.


I think that BlueAmber63 (Sue) is right,  that is more of a Heath thing.  I've done that type of thing myself.  Heath did it because he was supposed to show affection, so he did.

I'm assuming it was Heath's decision to not  exhibit the same affection with the character of Cassie.  After all,  Ennis loved Alma, loved his daughters, and loved Jack.   Cassie was a means to an end.  If he was with a woman, no one would be able to accuse him of being gay.  Or, perhaps it would protect him, in case Alma decided to tell  people about what she saw.

Offline CellarDweller115

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I have been trying to read through as many posts as possible without sacrificing too much of my free time, that's hard.  The problem I have is that once I read posts I wind up re-watching BBM with a new set of eyes.  Not sure if this point has already been made, but now I think I understand Alma Jr's response to Cassie's questions about the prospects of E settling down again.  AJs responses indicate to me that AJ understood her dad's relationship with JT at least with regards to their attachment to each other.  For example, AJ responses: 1) "he's not the marrying kind" which is an old time euphemism  for homosexual, and since Cassie didn't pick up on that, AJ told Cassie, "you're good enough" which I understand now to mean that she (Cassie) is a woman (actually any woman would do) which is good enough to provide E with a plausible claim to being straight.  My guess is that through Alma, AJ knows that JT is more than just a fishing buddy.

There  had been discussion in the past about whether or not Junior knew or had suspicions about Ennis.  I don't believe that Alma would tell Junior about this aspect of her father.   After all, at that time, there were no protections for gay people at that time.  Alma may have remarried and had her own job, but Ennis was still required to pay child support.  She would lose that if he lost his job, and was unable to get another, which would happen if it got out that Ennis was gay.

Offline colorado_jack

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Not really sure if this observation has been made or where it belongs, but the more attuned I become to the various hints, nuances, etc. the more I seem to find.  Not sure if this is totally out there but it all seems to hang together. 

I always wondered why did Lureen marry Jack since she was 1) college grad, 2) had rich daddy, 3) no lack of interest from other men (ie bar scene where she is constantly being approached while waiting for Jack to do something) and 4) easy on the eye.

Also, why did LD Newsume hate Jack so much and the issue of Bobby's difficulty in school was mentioned at least a couple of times so there must be a reason.

Paying close attention to the chronology presented in the movie:

1) Jack and Lureen met at Childress County Rodeo in August 1966.
2) Jack and Ennis had reunion in October 1967 where Jack mentioned his boy was 8 months old (again no throw aways in the movie so the fact that Jack specifically stated 8 months means something)
3) Bobby was born sometime around February 1967 (Feb + 8 months = Oct)

What I can piece together based upon the few above facts:

1) Bobby was conceived in the back seat of LD's car that hot August nite (no evidence of protection, too little time to get any since Lureen had to have car back by midnite)
2) Bobby was born 2 months premature (August +7 months = February + 8 months = October), helps to explain learning disability, 2 months premature in 1967 is a big deal
3) LD hated Jack getting his darling Lureen pregnant (lets face it, Jack is a loser in LDs eyes, Jack only made $2000 the year he met Lureen and she, on the other hand, is such a great catch she could have the pick of anyone in Childress County and beyond, a lot of other people must have had the same impression of Jack as he was referred to a "pissant" by two locals)
4) Lureen didn't appear to be much of a doting mom, Jack was the one who took the time to call his teachers about his problems in school...unplanned for and unwanted pregnancy and shot gun marriage might make anyone less devoted to their child.





Offline Gazapete

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I always thought the reason they got married was simply that she was pregnant. And I honestly don't think that they gave the chronology so much though as you do!  :laugh: Specially because baby Bobby doesn't look like a preemie at all. I think he's just dyslexic, it's a way to show that Jack cares about Bobby, even if he would leave him to be with Ennis.

Offline CellarDweller115

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There has been some discussion regarding Lureen and the possibility that she was pregnant when she married Jack.

It would make sense.  Jack was everything that Lureen was not, and I can't see LD wanting Lureen to marry someone like him. 

For Jack, getting married would stop the rumors about him.  You can see the way Jimbo reacts to Jack in the bar, and he obviously is talking about it to the guys at the pool table, so Jack getting married would put a stop to that talk.

Offline colorado_jack

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There has been some discussion regarding Lureen and the possibility that she was pregnant when she married Jack.

It would make sense.  Jack was everything that Lureen was not, and I can't see LD wanting Lureen to marry someone like him. 

For Jack, getting married would stop the rumors about him.  You can see the way Jimbo reacts to Jack in the bar, and he obviously is talking about it to the guys at the pool table, so Jack getting married would put a stop to that talk.

That and the fact that Daddy is loaded....cynical yes but not unexpected in Jack's eyes, as he did rather well due to his marriage, new truck every few years, nice clothes, able to travel at a minutes notice (or a divorce notice), seems like JT had a great deal going as Lureen really didn't seem to care much one way or the other, she got her jollies making hard deals and didnt seem to care JT went fishing every few months (except maybe at the end when she realized BBM was not a fantasy).

Offline CellarDweller115

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That and the fact that Daddy is loaded....cynical yes but not unexpected in Jack's eyes, as he did rather well due to his marriage, new truck every few years, nice clothes, able to travel at a minutes notice (or a divorce notice), seems like JT had a great deal going as Lureen really didn't seem to care much one way or the other, she got her jollies making hard deals and didnt seem to care JT went fishing every few months (except maybe at the end when she realized BBM was not a fantasy).

Very true.  Even when they were talking about getting the tutor for Bobby (the 'where  is my blue parka' scene) Lureen barely looked up from her calculator.

Offline colorado_jack

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I was reading archived posts for the Cassie/Ennis "relationship" and its meaning in the context of the movie as a whole.  Having the advantage of reading many hundreds of posts, and the advantage of repeat viewings on Amazon, I noticed something that did not appear to be mentioned.  With Ang Lee, I have come to the conclusion that everything (or most everything) has an alternate meaning to that presented in the movie.  In particular, the general consensus is that the Ennis is not really involved with Cassie since his heart belongs to Jack.  I think this is brought out in the scene where Ennis, Cassie, and Alma Jr are sitting in the bar, and Cassie drags Ennis to the dance floor (cigarette in hand), I noticed that there is a vague reflection of Ennis on the wall as he walks with Cassie (only Ennis, no reflection of Cassie).  After thinking about it for awhile, in this case, a reflection is more than just a reflection.  I think that the vague reflection of Ennis on the wall represents his lack of commitment to Cassie (just a shadow, actually) as the "real" Ennis is with Jack, and always will be. 

Offline Sason

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Yeah, but in the end, it didn't work, did it?  Jack still ended up having to track him down.

Yes, because Ennis is Ennis.

Düva pööp is a förce of natüre

Offline Sason

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Welcome Jack!

You make some very interesting points.

Düva pööp is a förce of natüre