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Author Topic: The Reunion  (Read 1034592 times)

Offline SquallCloud

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #315 on: February 06, 2006, 10:40:17 AM »
Hmmm I think you may be right but isn't there a lot of representations of the effeminate gay man in society? Look at QaF. It was fairly mainstream. The tendency though is to play the effeminate gay man as a joke like W&G which I happened to find funny up until last year when the writers seemed to stop caring, but the revolutionary thing about this movie is that it shows two men loving each other without the benifit of gay lifestyle. They can no more control their attraction to one another than they can change the flow of the river they sit by but they "aint queer". There is no nurture going on. No media portrayals that they are emulating, no "scene" to be part of, just simple honest human emotion. Basically, it's saying homosexual tendencies aren't a learned behavior.

Offline cythera4

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #316 on: February 06, 2006, 10:43:15 AM »
This debate belongs under another thread, probably. Under the "impact" section maybe.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #317 on: February 06, 2006, 10:50:57 AM »
I did not see that point made, sorry.

Nonetheless, are you suggesting that the plot could have/should have been about two, for example, effeminate clerk's at Macy's who use the dressing rooms for their 2-4 times a year rendevouses? Not the same film at all; in fact those films have been made.

BBM is a breakthrough film BECAUSE it shows that two, non-stereotypical men are/can be in love. Not in spite of it! As a result, the openness and understanding that this "thing" is not relegated to the limped-wristed, feminine types allows for a new and vitalized look at homosexual lives and behaviors.

the masculine characters neither allows the stigmatization of feminine men to continue, nor does it endorse it. Rather, it underscores the fact that, perhaps unknown by most people before, homosexuals have a range of personaolities and behaviors. This leads to a greater understanding, not a lessening. It tends to validate, not criticize.

Offline valkyrie

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #318 on: February 06, 2006, 10:54:14 AM »

Does he say something at the very end, as he's trying to gather himself to go up to Alma? They're still in a clinch, clothes askew, totally lost in one another, and Ennis disentangles himself and, I think, mumbles something to Jack before heading up the stairs. Is it "Later"?--saying, we can do what we want to do later, we have to find a place to be alone...?
Quote

I hear Ennis says "Wait" and a little wistful smile comes across Jacks face.

It is very enlighten for me to read your thought and opinions on gay love /universal love / rights and so on. I shall not venture into that debate, feeling you say is so much better. Let me just add that as a basically straight woman (unfortunately not much inkling the other way), to know gay and lesbians, to see and feel and read about gay/lesbian love makes me feel whole as a human being. A society that only accept and make visible only straight love, is a horrendous society I shall never accept. I need to be surrounded by love unfolding the various hues of the rainbow, providing it is between consenting adults.

helen_uk

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #319 on: February 06, 2006, 11:00:58 AM »
I think he says "later" to Jack just before they go up the stairs.  Apparently he also says "c'm'ere" as well, indicating that they should go up into the flat.  What's really interesting about the reunion scene  is that all Ennis' defences are down.  Look at how open he is whilst he's waiting for Jack to arrive.  He runs down to meet him, and completely loses himself.  At that moment he isn't repressed, fearful, ashamed or any of the other things we associate with him.  He even looks a different person at this point.  It's reminiscent of a couple of the scenes on the mountain (e.g when they are playing whilst being watched by Aguirre, and the dozy embrace), and shows us how Ennis could be if he wasn't so wrapped up in his anxiety most of the time.

Joyous.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2006, 11:09:38 AM by helen_uk »

Offline hayek_uk

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #320 on: February 06, 2006, 11:11:59 AM »
If this movie does challenge straight people, it challenges gay people too. It demands a lot of soul-searching and re-examination of what being gay is assumed to be.

Hmm? Can you say more? In other words, it's not a good idea to act effeminate? For instance?

Do we do whatever we do as a survival strategy, or as an expression of what we really feel we are?

Do we feel good about ourselves when we say and do things, or do we really hate oursleves?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2006, 11:13:52 AM by hayek_uk »
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Offline valkyrie

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #321 on: February 06, 2006, 11:12:05 AM »
Hi Helen, from the same timezone. Evening now and time to be deep into BBM again. (Well, when am I not?) Jack and Ennis' hunger and losing themselves in each other, makes me tend to think that they both would also be rather exploratory in their way of making love. The bottomed and top, or however it is phrased, seems not applicable to my understand of them. When they were together and alone, they seem so free to me concerning sex. Perhaps it's just my wistful thinking?

Offline cythera4

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #322 on: February 06, 2006, 11:18:42 AM »
I did not see that point made, sorry.

Nonetheless, are you suggesting that the plot could have/should have been about two, for example, effeminate clerk's at Macy's who use the dressing rooms for their 2-4 times a year rendevouses? Not the same film at all; in fact those films have been made.

BBM is a breakthrough film BECAUSE it shows that two, non-stereotypical men are/can be in love. Not in spite of it! As a result, the openness and understanding that this "thing" is not relegated to the limped-wristed, feminine types allows for a new and vitalized look at homosexual lives and behaviors.

the masculine characters neither allows the stigmatization of feminine men to continue, nor does it endorse it. Rather, it underscores the fact that, perhaps unknown by most people before, homosexuals have a range of personaolities and behaviors. This leads to a greater understanding, not a lessening. It tends to validate, not criticize.


I read a lot of criticism in your "two, for example, effeminate clerk's at Macy's who use the dressing rooms for their 2-4 times a year rendevouses" crack. It speaks volumes, frankly.

helen_uk

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #323 on: February 06, 2006, 11:19:26 AM »
I just had to say that I love how Jack/Jake breathes in Ennis/Heath's hair when he speaks to him, like he's savoring his favorite dish or something. Very nice.

I love that bit too. 

helen_uk

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #324 on: February 06, 2006, 11:21:31 AM »

Do we do whatever we do as a survival strategy, or as an expression of what we really feel we are?

Do we feel good about ourselves when we say and do things, or do we really hate oursleves?

Is this about the reunion scene?  Or would the topic be better off being continued under the impact catagory?  :)

Offline cythera4

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #325 on: February 06, 2006, 11:22:47 AM »
Do we do whatever we do as a survival strategy, or as an expression of what we really feel we are?

Do we feel good about ourselves when we say and do things, or do we really hate oursleves?

This is too abstract for me. Can you specify what concretely in the movie is speaking to these questions. And how is it asking gay people to rethink themselves? If you're saying the movie is a powerful indictment of living a closeted existence and of the psychologically deforming effects of internalized homophobia, then I agree with you 100%.

helen_uk

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #326 on: February 06, 2006, 11:28:44 AM »
and then Ennis crying by the fire while Jack rubs his face
I can't see Ennis crying in this scene, even when I look closely at the screencaps.  Is he really crying?  It would make the scene even more tragic and tender if he was.  I just LOVE that scene.  So beautiful when Jack reaches over with his hand, with such a concerned and loving look on his face.

Ennis cries a couple of times during the reunion scene.  Although, when I say 'crying', he doesn't actual shed tears.  In the motel when he is saying that they can't do anything about the situation that they're in and that he's stuck with his life you can see his eyes shining, and he shuts them tightly to stop the tears.  Likewise when Jack leans across when they are in front of the fire to stroke his face you can see Ennis' mouth and face move in such a way that implies he is only just stopping the tears from flowing.  I don't see watery eyes, but the rest implies that he is welling up.

Offline cythera4

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #327 on: February 06, 2006, 11:36:57 AM »
Ennis cries a couple of times during the reunion scene.  Although, when I say 'crying', he doesn't actual shed tears.  In the motel when he is saying that they can't do anything about the situation that they're in and that he's stuck with his life you can see his eyes shining, and he shuts them tightly to stop the tears.  Likewise when Jack leans across when they are in front of the fire to stroke his face you can see Ennis' mouth and face move in such a way that implies he is only just stopping the tears from flowing.  I don't see watery eyes, but the rest implies that he is welling up.

I see this too. I think he starts welling up here because, after telling Jack they can't be together, Jack reaches to stroke his face, and he realizes in a flash that it is precisely such gestures of unadorned tenderness from the man he loves that he is rejecting as a full and continuous part of his life.

Offline hayek_uk

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #328 on: February 06, 2006, 11:38:08 AM »
Do we do whatever we do as a survival strategy, or as an expression of what we really feel we are?

Do we feel good about ourselves when we say and do things, or do we really hate oursleves?

This is too abstract for me. Can you specify what concretely in the movie is speaking to these questions. And how is it asking gay people to rethink themselves? If you're saying the movie is a powerful indictment of living a closeted existence and of the psychologically deforming effects of internalized homophobia, then I agree with you 100%.

Yes I am. And that a lot of the things we take to be resistance to and rejection of internalized homophobia can turn out to be just another form of it. But what those things might be only an individual will be able to say -- does the life and personality he/she has built up, open or closeted or bits of both, reflect his/her inner feelings? Most important, how honest are his/her relations with the ones he/she loves most?
Let us not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments

Offline cythera4

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Re: Scene: The Reunion
« Reply #329 on: February 06, 2006, 11:41:57 AM »
Yes I am. And that a lot of the things we take to be resistance to and rejection of internalized homophobia can turn out to be just another form of it.

I don't understand this, I'm afraid.