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Author Topic: LGBTQ related news and issues  (Read 709061 times)

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #180 on: February 15, 2007, 12:27:50 PM »
I guess some people just aren't paying attention! Like Lyle says it doesn't matter Rance.   I guess you and I just look at the world through rose coloured glasses.  Well thank GOD, I would rather that than see the bad in everything!   I guess the world just sucks in the life of some, how sad.

I'm not denying for a moment that some people on this thread have had very positive experiences of being gay or living in communities where gay men and lesbians are accepted without question and naturally that wil influence their answer to the question of whether society is accepting as "yes". 

However, I don't believe that the folks who have had negative experiences (and btw that 'I'll kill you if I find out you're gay' quote was a direct quote from a mother to her thirteen year old daughter) are simply refusing to see "the bright side" or are being treated the way they 'allow themselves' to be treated.  Because when it comes to violence and discrimation the odds are very much stacked against you. 

The way this discussion is going kind of reminded me of lyrics from an Ani DiFranco song (Rush Hour):

"he said change the channel
i've got problems of my own
i'm so sick of hearing about drugs
and aids
and people without homes
and i said, well,
i'd like to sympathize with that
but if you don't understand
then how can you act"

And that's the whole issue, here, really.  If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.
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Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #181 on: February 15, 2007, 12:35:35 PM »
  If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.

WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!
 
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Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #182 on: February 15, 2007, 12:42:37 PM »
  If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.
WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!

On this one...I think there is, actually and I've said on what basis I make this judgement already on this thread.  But it's interesting that rather than consider what factors mean that some people live in a cosy little bubble of fluffiness and others very obviously do not, you dodge the whole question altogether and start claiming that if your answer isn't "correct" then there cannot be one!!
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Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #183 on: February 15, 2007, 12:48:40 PM »
WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!



The answer is that it is a matter of opinion, but by participating you are meant to explain what has led you to your opinion, and then people can swap why they are of a different opinion.  Then you feel free to argue any percieved points of logic or inconsistency, or things the other person might not have thought of. 

So, your reasons so far, to me, seem to be "Society is as accepting as it claims, because I know gay people who don't live with fear and hate in their local community."

Now, I then point out that you're confusing your local area with society at large, and that by saying "Society is just fine" you are actually causing massive harm to the people who are being persecuted elsewhere. 

The thing is, unless you take up the point from there and put something to me to consider, it is not very productive.

For example, if I answer you point by point with my views, and then you say "In Canada we have lovely cheese", the non-sequitur kills any chance of a dialog.  If there is another answer, you need to present the ideas that have led to your conclusion.

Do you see?

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #184 on: February 15, 2007, 12:51:51 PM »
No one mentioned cheese, but I did mention how we define marriage in Canada.  I think that speaks volumes.

Anyway you know what, it has been nice chatting, but I think I am done with this topic.  It could go around and around forever.

Peace!  ;D
 
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Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #185 on: February 15, 2007, 01:20:50 PM »
If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.

Well stated.

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #186 on: February 15, 2007, 01:39:14 PM »
If we don't agree that society is NOT completely accepting of all people and there are still pockets of discrimination, then we really cannot move forward to bring those positive experiences to more people.
WOW, okay I thought it was a question, I didn't realize there was only one correct answer!

All of your posts indicated that you thought there was only one answer and made post after post to state it.  The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Quote
Anyway you know what, it has been nice chatting, but I think I am done with this topic.  It could go around and around forever.

As with any topic, people can discuss it and be enlightened.  For example, I have been having a conversation with HerrKaiser on the homphobia thread and he has introduced thoughts about that subject I had never considered before.  Neither of us are demanding that we agree with each other, but are finding different thought processes about the subject neither of us had considered previously.  It's only when one  is trying to learn and another is adamant and refuses to consider another option, even if they end up disagreeing with it, that the disruptions seem to occur.

Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #187 on: February 15, 2007, 06:05:33 PM »
I am awed and amazed and grateful that in a thread where we've experienced such tension, I have been able to discover the beauty in several minds, hearts and souls!!

If group marriage were possible, I would want to marry my Shelly, PLUS Alan and Penny and Lyle! :-* :-* :-*
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

(Thank you, myeyesain'tblue!)

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #188 on: February 15, 2007, 08:15:47 PM »
Hmmm and I would marry Rance, Gerry and Fritz!!  Viva la polygamy! lol
 
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Offline fritzkep

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #189 on: February 16, 2007, 05:19:23 PM »
No offense, Lola, but your anatomy isn't quite right!  :D

 :-*  :-*  :-*

Werd ich zum Augenblicke sagen, "Verweile doch! Du bist so schön..."

Offline Lyle (Mooska)

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #190 on: February 16, 2007, 06:13:44 PM »
Again, starting off with the question of this thread, Is society really as accepting as it claims, I would point out what is all over the internet today with headlines about Kenny Chesney.  Wether Kenny Chesney is gay or not, it is interesting for several reasons.

1.)  All of the internet articles I read, which is quite a few, are quoting this statement:  Maybe I should have come out and said, `No, I'm not (gay),' but I didn't want to draw any more attention to it," the 38-year-old country singer says. "... I didn't have to prove to anybody that I wasn't (gay). I didn't feel like I really did."

The fact that gay is in parantheses (gay) means he did not use that word.  The author does that so we are clear of the statements intentions, but I wonder what word/words, if any "was/were" used?

2.)  All of the articles say this:  That Kenny has said that the reason he/they  used fraud as the reason for their annulment was not because he's gay.  Which is very different than saying he is not gay.  But the press has all said he said he's not gay and not once in the articles is he quoted as saying that.

NOW THE INTERVIEW ITSELF MAY SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT ON 60 MINUTES, BUT NO ONE HAS PROVIDED A TRANSCRIPT OF THAT.

From an article in the O.C. Register:

His denial, what I've seen of it, seems very believable to me, but whether it's true or not, I really feel for the guy right now, as I do for just about any celebrity whose sexuality becomes gossip fodder. If he really is gay - and I'm not suggesting he is, just hypothesizing here - and he's denying it, well, not only might that immeasurably set back the cause of gay people to not be stigmatized, but it would mean that Chesney is living in some sort of closeted self-torment. Which is his and anyone else's prerogative, of course; I don't stand with those who believe gay celebrities should be outed, or simply out themselves, as a means of furthering a community's visibility. It's a private matter, first and foremost.

If he is indeed not gay, well, unfortunately that will hardly convince some people. The speculation will remain, and no amount of truth-talking from Chesney is going to make some people shake the notion that he's somehow covering something up. Look at how some people view Clay Aiken in the wake of charges (from a rather dubious source) about his sexuality. There is bound to be unexpected fallout from this, especially considering Chesney is a country star. Not to put stock in homophobic stereotypes, but there are surely some country fans who will for years to come mockingly equate Chesney with, oh, Brokeback Mountain.


Notice how the author, and I'm sure he doesn't even know he is doing it, is using the BBM reference as though that if someone thinks Kenny Chesney is gay or even associates him with being gay, that that is a bad thing.  Why wouldn't you be honored to be compared to BBM?

By the way, Clay Aiken has always been viewed as a big closet case, even before those other charges; where has this author been?  Well, he's in super conservative Orange County, I answered my own question.

3.) Quoting this line from that article again: [Any person's sexuality] -- It's a private matter, first and foremost.

Straight people usually say this because all they are thinking about in terms of gay people are the actual sex acts.  They never think of someone's sexuality in terms of just being with your partner and being free to hold hands, or a touch, or make a statement about someone, or bring over a friend to someone's house, or if someone comes over to your place have to think about anything being in your house that might give yourself away or not.  Etc.  So as a matter of privacy, it's out there for gay people to see straight people as straight all the time.  It's not private.  We know you are straight.  You are allowed to freely express it.  With gay people it is not always an option.

So if society is as accepting as it claims, this Kenny Chesney story today wouldn't have even come up.  It would be a non-story and the press wouldn't feel a need to address it at all.

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #191 on: February 16, 2007, 06:27:22 PM »
No offense, Lola, but your anatomy isn't quite right!  :D

 :-*  :-*  :-*


That is what I said to Rance, something tells me I am going to get the short end of the stick in this marriage! lol
 
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Offline fritzkep

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #192 on: February 16, 2007, 07:45:48 PM »
No offense, Lola, but your anatomy isn't quite right!  :D

 :-*  :-*  :-*


That is what I said to Rance, something tells me I am going to get the short end of the stick in this marriage! lol

Hmmmmmmmmmmm............naah, too easy.   ;D  :D

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Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #193 on: February 17, 2007, 03:41:36 AM »
Straight people usually say this because all they are thinking about in terms of gay people are the actual sex acts.  They never think of someone's sexuality in terms of just being with your partner and being free to hold hands, or a touch, or make a statement about someone, or bring over a friend to someone's house, or if someone comes over to your place have to think about anything being in your house that might give yourself away or not.  Etc.  So as a matter of privacy, it's out there for gay people to see straight people as straight all the time.  It's not private.  We know you are straight.  You are allowed to freely express it.  With gay people it is not always an option.


That's an interesting take on things, and along with Merrobot's desire for gay celebrities to provide a positive role model for younger gay people, it's got me thinking...

I am coming from a point of view that i don't believe that a celebrity really owes it to anyone to come out publicly.  On the other hand, in order to remain "in" or ambiguous (with regards to hwo the press views you) it actually takes work.  I was thinking of it in terms of gay celebrities not having to take action to define themselves one way or another, because it is up to them if they wish their sexuality to remain private.

Now, I certainly do understand that sexuality is not sex, and is a lot more than who you sleep with.  It's why I was pointing out to Lola that a bisexual who marries doesn't suddenly slot neatly into gay or straight, but rather remains bisexual, simply monogamous.  However I didn't really consider that a celebrity would have to take actions to stop people finding out they are gay.

It's one thing for me to say "I don't think celebrities have to confirm whether they are gay or straight", but that's not enough to keep the press from finding out.  All you need to do is look at who's hand they are holding.  Who do they go to dinner with?  So a gay celebrity has to really put effort into acting straight in a hundred small ways that I pretty much ignored in my position.

I think then I have to refine my opinion.  I am still sticking to the "nobody's business" angle, but adding that even on top of not having to define themselves as straight or gay, it would be better if the press didn't speculate either way.  Which would include posting pretty much any picture of a celebrity in any social setting. 

That more or less boils down to me wanting no "gossip" about celebrities in the press, so I guess I may as well wish for a pony and a solid gold house while I'm at it, eh?

Hmmm... food for thought...



P.S. Thanks for wanting to mass marry us Jeanine!   :-*  We'd love it, but does it mean moving to Utah?  :-\

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #194 on: February 17, 2007, 03:53:02 AM »
I am awed and amazed and grateful that in a thread where we've experienced such tension, I have been able to discover the beauty in several minds, hearts and souls!!

If group marriage were possible, I would want to marry my Shelly, PLUS Alan and Penny and Lyle! :-* :-* :-*

That's a lovely idea, Jeanine!  :-*  But you are also making a very good point here too, that it is only by joining together that people can make their voices heard and that probably one of the factors that allows discrimination and persecution to occur is isolation and invisibility.
"I've more than one membership
to more than one club
and I owe my life to the people that I love"
- Ani DiFranco, In or Out, Living in Clip