LGBTQ related news and issues

[Nikki]

Michael and Nikki, you definitely have a point here and one that I did not consider. Sometimes it is way too easy to not recognize the strains and feelings of the other side. Marriage and family, yes those are two very big things that many of us, including me, have never had the experience of. There is quite a bit involved there. And the pressure on straight guys from many women to become involved in this is a very real thing. I can think of someone from BBM who was putting the pressure on Ennis. Remember Cassie  Beyond this conversation comes the idea that many times we do not think of the additional things and pressures that are involved in someone else's lifestyle. Being gay, being straight, being Bi, etc, all have pressures. It is important in my estimation that we seek to realize that and not see everything in black and white. The old saying along with the old song "Walk A Mile In My Shoes" comes to mind. Thanks to the both of you to make me think more deeply about this.

Jack

Jack, you're absolutely right.  Nothing is black and white -- there are always shades of gray IMO.  Yes, all relationships have pressures - gay, straight, bi --  By their very nature relationships are not easy -- there are problems and pitfalls in all of them -- After all, we are dealing with human beings who are by nature complex whatever the gender.  If there wasn't such pressure to get married, to have a boy/girlfriend, to have a relationship, things would be a lot easier, wouldn't they?

[michaelflanagansf]

Jack, you're absolutely right.  Nothing is black and white -- there are always shades of gray IMO.  Yes, all relationships have pressures - gay, straight, bi --  By their very nature relationships are not easy -- there are problems and pitfalls in all of them -- After all, we are dealing with human beings who are by nature complex whatever the gender.  If there wasn't such pressure to get married, to have a boy/girlfriend, to have a relationship, things would be a lot easier, wouldn't they?

Nikki this is something I often mention to people in terms of gay marriage.  Don't get me wrong - I think it is very important for gay relationships to be recognized and to have equal legal rights.  But I really hope that as we move to a time of gay marriage that young gay people won't be put in the same sort of situation that young straight people are now - that there is an expectation that they will be paired off and married (especially, say before their late 20s).  I have several nieces and nephews who are on second marriages because they thought this was the thing to do.

Here's to the day when people don't have to worry about people being 'after them' and they can take their time to get to know their partners and settle into true loving relationships - if that's what they want.

[Jer009]

Here's to the day when people don't have to worry about people being 'after them' and they can take their time to get to know their partners and settle into true loving relationships - if that's what they want.

I agree, Michael. Otherwise, we risk getting gay people into the same straightjacket (Ha!)  as straight people. And some gay and straight people would do well to wait, and not marry at all. Or some combination of the two. It's a good argument for serial monogamy, for some people.

[quithammerin]

Otherwise, we risk getting gay people into the same straightjacket (Ha!)  as straight people.

As yer traditionally-married person, I've got to chime in here.  I'm hoping for folk of sexual minorities to find a way to things like love, committment, community on their own terms.  I'm hoping for this to be an improvement on things so far, that the rest of us can look to as an inspiration. 

So many were inspired by Jack Twist's "It could be like this....." , but if I remember the posts I've read, there are are also plenty of us who added "you mean, it doesn't need to be like this??"

[michaelflanagansf]

As a single person I have to chime in here.  I hope that we will come to a point where people who choose to be single will cease to be seen as somehow 'less than' people in couples.  I'm quite happy by myself.  I'm not saying that I'll always be by myself - or that anyone else needs to do likewise.  But I know a lot of people get a real 'oh, you poor thing' attitude when they find out you aren't partnered up.  And both I and several of my friends (straight and gay) wish they would get over that.

If we really want an accepting society we will recognize the joy that people feel in their lives whether they are in couples or single.

http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/

[Nikki]

As a single person I have to chime in here.  I hope that we will come to a point where people who choose to be single will cease to be seen as somehow 'less than' people in couples.  I'm quite happy by myself.  I'm not saying that I'll always be by myself - or that anyone else needs to do likewise.  But I know a lot of people get a real 'oh, you poor thing' attitude when they find out you aren't partnered up.  And both I and several of my friends (straight and gay) wish they would get over that.

If we really want an accepting society we will recognize the joy that people feel in their lives whether they are in couples or single.

http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/

Michael, I totally agree.  After my husband died, I began to get the same old question, "DOn't you want to marry again?"  I always replied "why should I."  We don't have to be partnered up, if we are contented as we are.  I have my family, friends, hobbies, CATS!!  I don't need a man to define me as a woman, or as a person. My answer to people who need a partner to define themselves as a person is: "Oh, you poor thing!"

[quithammerin]

Precisely! 

We all need some kind of love, committment, community, and a way to nurture us through the stages of life. I have no doubt that we can do that much better when we look at how many different things people have to offer.  It would lead to a lot less pain than than leading people to expect happiness in one of a small set of templates. 

[tfferg]

Jeff, you pose a question I have always wondered about myself. For some reason it does seem that if a straight guy finds out another guy is gay that means automatically that they are in danger of attack. It doesn't matter what they look or act like they seem to feel that a guy being gay means they are after every male on the planet. And you are right, so often these are straight guys I certainly would never be interested in. Wonder if these same guys think that a straight girl is automatically after them?

I wonder if it could also be the other way round. Lots of straight guys seem to think they should be after any and every woman they encounter. (Some cultures assume that whenever a man and a woman who are not family are alone, sex will automatically result, hence the instituionalization of segregation of the sexes in those societies.) Maybe they overgeneralize this to gay guys and think they are after every guy they see like a gay versionof Don Juan.

[michaelflanagansf]

I wonder if it could also be the other way round. Lots of straight guys seem to think they should be after any and every woman they encounter. (Some cultures assume that whenever a man and a woman who are not family are alone, sex will automatically result, hence the instituionalization of segregation of the sexes in those societies.) Maybe they overgeneralize this to gay guys and think they are after every guy they see like a gay version of Don Juan.

This makes a lot of sense too Tony.  And the notions you mention are not that far away from western cultures - the 'skirts' that chairs and tables used to wear is due to the notion that table and chair legs would excite men and make them uncontrollable (sexually) around women.  Likewise the notion that a glimpse of stocking or ankle could overwhelmingly arouse men.

I wonder if there isn't some biological connection to the sexual expansiveness of men - the notion that they need to spread their genetic material as widely as possible to assure the success of their genetic line.  Of course this wouldn't make any sex in terms of gay sex - but the sexual impulse is more basic than the orientation of the person it is in (imho).

[bradINblue]

I wonder if it could also be the other way round. Lots of straight guys seem to think they should be after any and every woman they encounter. (Some cultures assume that whenever a man and a woman who are not family are alone, sex will automatically result, hence the instituionalization of segregation of the sexes in those societies.) Maybe they overgeneralize this to gay guys and think they are after every guy they see like a gay versionof Don Juan.

I think it's time to pull yourselves/ourselves outta the trenches. I'm around a lot of straight guys in their 20's and they are nothing like the babyboomers and their genX kids--even here in the 'sticks'. These young guys don't chase after every 'skirt' they encounter. They stay married and don't drink and carry on as much. They don't think so much with their dicks like their fathers. They are home early and up early. It's not fair to think that most hetro guys are after every woman they encounter. IMO, this catagorizing is cliche' and passe'. Give em' some credit. They deserve it.

Brad

[tfferg]

Likewise the notion that a glimpse of stocking or ankle could overwhelmingly arouse men.

My Victorian grandfather in advanced old age would respond loudly in public to the sight of an attractive feminine ankle in the 1960s, much to my mother's consternation.

[jstephens9]

Obviously, several of you already had the same idea I had. I have always felt that even if someone were gay they were still expected to be in a relationship and if not they were somewhat less than the partnered people around them. This has been true for many years and I am not imagining that in the "gay" world. It exists. Somehow the idea that someone is "alone" becomes a bad thing. This is not true. Many people actually prefer to be alone. Many people who are partnered like the idea of being alone sometimes too. Having time to yourself can be a very good thing. I have pretty much been partnered with someone since shortly after I came out at 17. I felt I had to be in a relationship. It just seemed to be expected by those around me and I fell for it. The result turned out to be a couple of incredibly bad relationships which I stayed in way too long and wasted too many years of my life for just because I thought I should be in a relationship. Since the last one ended, Thank God, I discovered that it can be so much to do things by myself, go places by myself, etc. My first encounter with that was going to Myrtle Beach, SC last summer about this time of the year. I thought I hated the place. I discovered that my hate for the place had nothing to do with Myrtle Beach. It had everything to do with the lousy times I had there with both of the relationships. I found that I loved the place. I was free to come and go as I pleased, go where I wanted to go and it was incredible how many different people I got to meet and talk with. This past summer I went to New York City, again by myself, and I had an absolutely great time. Some people thought that was strange that someone would go to NYC alone. For me I would not have had it any other way. Again, I saw and did so many things plus talked to so many people. That would not have happened if I would have had some kind of relationship along with me.

Nikki and Michael touched on this, but it very much seems that someone who is alone, meaning not in a relationship, gets these looks and words which indicate "you pour thing" or you're going to end up "alone." You know that is not always a bad thing for everyone.

[zth]

AMEN to that jstephens9 !

[tfferg]

It's not fair to think that most hetro guys are after every woman they encounter. IMO, this catagorizing is cliche' and passe'. Give em' some credit. They deserve it.

Brad

Nobody said anything about 'most' hetero guys.

[tfferg]

Obviously, several of you already had the same idea I had. I have always felt that even if someone were gay they were still expected to be in a relationship and if not they were somewhat less than the partnered people around them. This has been true for many years and I am not imagining that in the "gay" world. It exists. Somehow the idea that someone is "alone" becomes a bad thing. This is not true. Many people actually prefer to be alone. Many people who are partnered like the idea of being alone sometimes too. Having time to yourself can be a very good thing. I have pretty much been partnered with someone since shortly after I came out at 17. I felt I had to be in a relationship. It just seemed to be expected by those around me and I fell for it. The result turned out to be a couple of incredibly bad relationships which I stayed in way too long and wasted too many years of my life for just because I thought I should be in a relationship. Since the last one ended, Thank God, I discovered that it can be so much to do things by myself, go places by myself, etc. My first encounter with that was going to Myrtle Beach, SC last summer about this time of the year. I thought I hated the place. I discovered that my hate for the place had nothing to do with Myrtle Beach. It had everything to do with the lousy times I had there with both of the relationships. I found that I loved the place. I was free to come and go as I pleased, go where I wanted to go and it was incredible how many different people I got to meet and talk with. This past summer I went to New York City, again by myself, and I had an absolutely great time. Some people thought that was strange that someone would go to NYC alone. For me I would not have had it any other way. Again, I saw and did so many things plus talked to so many people. That would not have happened if I would have had some kind of relationship along with me.

Nikki and Michael touched on this, but it very much seems that someone who is alone, meaning not in a relationship, gets these looks and words which indicate "you pour thing" or you're going to end up "alone." You know that is not always a bad thing for everyone.

I can't say I've ever felt any pressure from others to be in a gay relationship, but perhaps that's because I haven't been part of any gay social network, though I've often felt uncomfortably conspicuous and self-conscious being alone in public and especially in gay settings in my country where people seem to congregate in closed groups. In those settings, rather than being the target of looks, I've more often felt invisible. So, over the years, I've done many things alone, sometimes feeling very lonely, sometimes quite contentedly and with a sense of freedom and sometimes it has given me the flexibilty and the opportunity for good things, experiences and connections with people.

The traditional stereotype, as we know, is that we gays inevitably end up alone and unhappy, something which I set out to defy in recent years.