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Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2007, 12:12:53 PM »
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

The point is, it is not that unusual, and hardly noteworthy.  Not that I can see.  And these dear men are giving you examples of just how it is done, how they are doing it.  :)
 
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Offline cabin

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2007, 12:27:36 PM »

That was not what I was talking about at all. Indeed, the topic of this thread is whether or not society is as aceepting as it sometimes claims.


OK, let's keep it simple.   I've taken your quote above and deleted everything except what you see this thread is about.


Simple, answer.   Here it goes.   Ready.


In my opinion,  yes.


OK,


Now you. . . .

lol  8)



Hi Lyle.    ;)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 12:40:18 PM by cabin »

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2007, 12:41:18 PM »
And as for jake being gay or not, or accepting it or not,   just mind your own business and do something other than debate someone's sexuality.  Let him be, for gods sakes.

The tone of your post comes across as quite angry or at least frustrated and I can certainly appreciate why you would wish that people didn't spectulate about Jake's private life.  I've been purposely trying not to get into the "is he, isn't he" debate about Jake to any great degree on this thread because I don't want it to detract from the main topic of discussion. 

However, we are on a thread discussing society's acceptance of homosexuality on a forum that is inspired by BBM and where the lives of Jake and Heath in particular are followed in quite significant detail.  It therefore seems almost inevitable that Jake will be suggested as an example of how potentially society's failure to accept LGBT people can force individuals to remain closeted.  Of course, if he is gay or bisexual then coming out is a personal decision and process, it has to be the right time for him.  But at the same time if he is gay or bi and not disclosing that then I think that actually would say something very powerful about his perceptions of how that information would be regarded.

On a slightly more tangential note - there seems to be some feeling that people want to know his sexual orientation to satisfy their own curosity or gratification.  While I think this does play a part, I also think for LGBT folks that having a successful, attrative, smart (and out!) young guy like Jake would be a really inspiring thing.  For teens in particular having those role models makes all the difference - it gives you a sense of hope and determination to get through what can be a tough time of self-discovery and acceptance.

I remember kd lang making a comment along the lines of "Nobody pays me to be a lesbian or a vegan but it comes with the job" and at that point I was so grateful to her because really, back in 95/96 when I was struggling to find other people who were like me and would accept me, there weren't that many out gay celebrities and even fewer lesbian ones.  There were probably a lot more than I realised but in the days before I had access to the internet and the only gay books in my small town library were "Tales of the City" she and Martina were the only role models I could find without having to look too hard.

I seem to have turned this into a "won't somebody think of the children!!!" commentary but actually, I stand by it because I remember how damn hard it was to be 14 and whether they like it or not, people who are so in the public eye and consciousness have a huge capacity to make a difference  :)
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Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2007, 12:45:30 PM »

That was not what I was talking about at all. Indeed, the topic of this thread is whether or not society is as aceepting as it sometimes claims.


OK, let's keep it simple.   I've taken your quote above and deleted everything except what you see this thread is about.


Simple, answer.   Here it goes.   Ready.


In my opinion,  yes.


OK,


Now you. . . .

lol  8)

In my opinion, no.

But I'm happy for your experience!
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

(Thank you, myeyesain'tblue!)

Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2007, 12:49:29 PM »
But many, many gay people here in America do not have that experience no matter how wonderfully they live their lives!

I'm glad you guys do. It's so unusual as to be noteworthy!

The point is, it is not that unusual, and hardly noteworthy.  Not that I can see.  And these dear men are giving you examples of just how it is done, how they are doing it.  :)

It is indeed, unusual, for gay people in America to have the perception that society is completely accepting of their sexuality. And yes, that is noteworthy.

I'm surprised you don't agree!

People here in America are still killed for being gay.
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

(Thank you, myeyesain'tblue!)

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2007, 12:51:42 PM »
However, we are on a thread discussing society's acceptance of homosexuality on a forum that is inspired by BBM and where the lives of Jake and Heath in particular are followed in quite significant detail.  It therefore seems almost inevitable that Jake will be suggested as an example of how potentially society's failure to accept LGBT people can force individuals to remain closeted.  Of course, if he is gay or bisexual then coming out is a personal decision and process, it has to be the right time for him.  But at the same time if he is gay or bi and not disclosing that then I think that actually would say something very powerful about his perceptions of how that information would be regarded.

And what if he is straight?  Then can he just say I am straight, can he say he wants to meet Mrs. Right and have a child, without fear of alienating his gay fans or disappointing them?

And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"
 :-\

If Jake & Heath had not done BB would anyone be speculating about his sexuality? 

And back to the question, "is society as accepting as it claims"  I too say yes, at least for the people I know.   And I think in 2007 if a young star (male or female) were gay, they would admit it (IF they wanted to) and if they don't I think that is fine too.

Although I do see your point about young gay teens needing role models and people to identify with.

Of course having said that I know a 14 year old gay boy who identifies with Paris Hilton!  ;)
 
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Offline cabin

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #111 on: February 13, 2007, 12:57:24 PM »

In my opinion, no.

But I'm happy for your experience!


lowcountrygirl:

thank you.     and with that                  "poof"

Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #112 on: February 13, 2007, 01:00:12 PM »
I absolutely don't want to get in a religious topic on this thread--someone could start a whole thread about that, but I recommend a book called "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality".

I have had that debate often, and I have yet to find anything by gay Christians that is not a sincere but desperate attempt to cloud an otherwise simple and direct statement.  A particularly direct pastor of the modern era sums it up by saying "The Truth's still the Truth even if you don't like it".  All too often people look at the action of Yahweh (the Christian God), see them to be childish, barbaric and inexplicably cruel, and instead seek to handle this by calling it mysterious.  The intelligent modern Christian spends an enormous amount of time avoiding these or rationalising away these acts with clever arguments and textual interpretation until they feel comfortable.  Look in the book without a need to justify existing beliefs though, and it paints a pretty horrible picture.

I will try and get time to read that book if you recommend it though. 

In the wider context it's what people do with the words and how they act on them that is infinitely more important, and as you say sections of society use this to "bother" gay people.  I feel we can move beyond the word bother to describe people like now deceased Pastor Fred Phelps, who attended funerals to inform the grieving relatives that their child was now in hell, because "God hates fags".  He was able to directly reference a book that other people also make use of as a moral framework for his hate campaign. 

While Phelps was an extremist, it is common to see homophobia and strong religious principles hand in hand (especially the middle East and America).  Regardless of academic interpretations of books, the content is being taken pretty literally throughout the world.

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #113 on: February 13, 2007, 01:04:49 PM »
And what if he is straight?  Then can he just say I am straight, can he say he wants to meet Mrs. Right and have a child, without fear of alienating his gay fans or disappointing them?

I just don't buy this argument at all.  I can see the National Enquirer headline now: "Jake G denies being straight for fear of heterosexist backlash shocker".   :o

Quote
And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"

Well the entire cast and crew of "Go Fish" were gay...

Quote
If Jake & Heath had not done BB would anyone be speculating about his sexuality?

I don't know the answer to that but as far as I know, Tom Cruise has never played a gay character  ;)

Quote
And back to the question, "is society as accepting as it claims"  I too say yes, at least for the people I know.

We're obviously seeing a marked geographical difference here.  I'm wondering what makes the difference between where you are in Canada, where lowcountrygirl is in the US, and where I am in the UK?

Quote
And I think in 2007 if a young star (male or female) were gay, they would admit it (IF they wanted to) and if they don't I think that is fine too.

While I would say certainly to the idea of people coming out when good and ready, I again have to wonder what is stopping them?
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Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #114 on: February 13, 2007, 01:16:07 PM »
Quote
And this thread went on to speculate that Jake, Heath and Ang Lee were gay!!   I mean "was everyone in the movie gay?"

Well the entire cast and crew of "Go Fish" were gay...


Yep, there's enough gay people out there to make a whole movie crew!  It's possible!

The thing is, a movie about gay not-quite-cowboys, tackling issues of homophobia in America across the years... that's going to get the attention of quite a few gay people.  It's pretty understandable if a lot of the folks involved were gay, because it is a tremendously important gay movie.  Lots of people would *want* to be involved.

Imagine a film about Martin Luther King, and me going "Wait a second, there were HOW many black guys??!"

So, while I am not going to speculate public ally on Jake, Heath and Ang, I think you have to admit that the possibility is quite reasonable.

Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #115 on: February 13, 2007, 01:20:53 PM »
And what if he is straight?  Then can he just say I am straight, can he say he wants to meet Mrs. Right and have a child, without fear of alienating his gay fans or disappointing them?

I just don't buy this argument at all.  I can see the National Enquirer headline now: "Jake G denies being straight for fear of heterosexist backlash shocker".   :o

LOL I am just talking about a backlash from some of the people on this site.  I don't think the general gay public (OR alot of gay people on this board) could care less about the sexuality of either one of them! 

But when Heath marries (supposedly) and has a child and declares his undying love for the women he is with..........I don't get why anyone would think he was gay?

And when Jake says in a magazine, he definitley wants to have a child and find the right women to marry..............why that would be a light going off (to some) that he is gay and trying to cover??   

Not to mention that both of them have been in very long term relationships with females!


As for Ang, I am totally lost on that speculation!

 
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Offline fritzkep

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #116 on: February 13, 2007, 01:21:05 PM »
We also have many members in long term happy relationships, 20 to 30 years.  They live in harmony with their partners, and society is not bothering them in the least.

If they live in America, I doubt that's true, at least not 100% of those 20-30 years!


Well, my partner Earl and I have been together for 28 years now, and the people we're close to in the neighborhood know about us and are completely accepting. We've lived in the same neighborhood since 1984. We don't feel it's necessary to introduce ourselves as "Hellowe'reEarlandFritzandwe'regay", but let that fact come out naturally. With most people, not all but most, it's harder to hate an individual due to stereotypes when you know an individual rather than have just the stereotype to go on.

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Offline Lola

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2007, 01:26:24 PM »
The thing is, a movie about gay not-quite-cowboys, tackling issues of homophobia in America across the years... that's going to get the attention of quite a few gay people.  It's pretty understandable if a lot of the folks involved were gay, because it is a tremendously important gay movie.  Lots of people would *want* to be involved.

Imagine a film about Martin Luther King, and me going "Wait a second, there were HOW many black guys??!"

So, while I am not going to speculate public ally on Jake, Heath and Ang, I think you have to admit that the possibility is quite reasonable.

NO I don't admit that.  And although I would admit that there would be alot of black people in a movie about Dr. Martin Luther King or say Malcom X.  I don't expect that a movie about gay cowboys would have 2 gays stars and a gay director.  No I don't think that at all.

And maybe there are leading men out there who would hesitate taking those parts (or directing the film) because they wouldn't want everyone to assume they were gay.

Heck I didn't assume Anthony Hopkins was a serial killer who ate people's livers?   But he sure did a good job playing one.



Hey Fritz!!  :)  So far we have you, Gerry and Marty.  You all sound very happy and very blessed to me!
 
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Offline fritzkep

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2007, 01:31:52 PM »
By Marty I assume you mean Rance (Osprey)!  :D

Marty is Rance's partner.  :-*  :-*  :-*

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Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2007, 01:44:37 PM »
LOL I am just talking about a backlash from some of the people on this site.  I don't think the general gay public (OR alot of gay people on this board) could care less about the sexuality of either one of them! 

But when Heath marries (supposedly) and has a child and declares his undying love for the women he is with..........I don't get why anyone would think he was gay?

And when Jake says in a magazine, he definitley wants to have a child and find the right women to marry..............why that would be a light going off (to some) that he is gay and trying to cover??   

Not to mention that both of them have been in very long term relationships with females!


As for Ang, I am totally lost on that speculation!

Hmmm... well falling in love with women and having children aren't typical gay men behaviours, I'll give you that  :D  However, from what we know it is entirely possible that either of them could be bisexual or straight or now that we've seen jake-in-a-frock trans... ::)

Gah - I wasn't going to get into this but anyway... I think what Jake says in the GQ interview is subject to interpretation and a very close read of the article suggests to me that he is not actually saying that he wants to get married and have children but neither does he say that he doesn't.  I find him often quite evasive in interviews and it only rings bells because I spent a lot of my adolescence and early adulthood doing exactly the same thing.  To a cynical reader it can come across as him nominally saying what he believes people want to hear without having to lie outright and compromise his own integrity.

So dragging it back to the main discussion, society is not going to have a hairy fit over him being straight but what do you think the repercussions of him coming out as gay or bisexual would be?  My guess is that society would not be overly embracing.
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