LGBTQ related news and issues

[shelber]

here is a heart warming and beautiful story........*note the sarcasm*

this happened a few weeks ago, but a co-worker came to work the other night, and was very upset (understandingly so) and her friend was jumped out side of a bar by 2 guys, and beaten really badly, to the point where they may be flying him out to edmonton, yep here in little ol alberta........oh did i mention he was gay...the guy that got jumped

[Lyle (Mooska)]

here is a heart warming and beautiful story........*note the sarcasm*

this happened a few weeks ago, but a co-worker came to work the other night, and was very upset (understandingly so) and her friend was jumped out side of a bar by 2 guys, and beaten really badly, to the point where they may be flying him out to edmonton, yep here in little ol alberta........oh did i mention he was gay...the guy that got jumped

I guess Lola doesn't live in that accepting neighborhood of Alberta society.

A gay actor in West Hollywood was viciously beaten by three men with a lead pipe on Norcroft Ave.  He was in the Cedar's Sinai hospital and  unconcious for several days.

I "know" Lola doesn't live in "that" neighborhood.

I am just amazed, Lola, that with all of the discussions you've read on these threads over the past year about Brokeback Mountain, a film in which because of societal values two men are forced to love in secret and one of them is beaten at the end of the film, where intiative after iniative in the U.S. has been passed to deny marriage rights to gay couples, where gay men are periodically beaten for being gay, where someone can call another a faggot in the workplace and its not dealt with so it makes a reprise at the Golden Globes (the T.R. Knight story), where a TDS article quotes actors as saying casting offices are more reminsicent of 1957 when it comes to gay actors, where BBM has homophobic remarks made against it by ampas members without any redress against them, where U.S. soldiers cannot serve in the military if they choose to be themselves, where you discount people with the wave of a keystroke who have direct or circumstantial evidence of a public person being gay, where gay students are expelled from college because they're found out on myspace websites, as someone posted here that they were outed from as well, and you STILL persist to have a pollyanna view that "society is as accepting as it claims", and it doesn't matter if every happy gay couple on the planet makes a post on this thread.

[Lola]

I briefly posted yesterday about the fact that we live in a small Mormon town in Northeastern Utah and are utterly accepted in the community as a gay couple and interestingly enough, Salt Lake City has one of the most sophisticated gay communities in the nation.  They are involved in every aspect of Utah Society and manage very well even with the "Official Policy" of the LDS Church being what it is. 

I think that you will find that there is a huge disconnect between the elderly and younger leaders of many of the religions today.  These elderly leaders, are in many respects stuck in the horse and buggy era in regards to the increased knowledge regarding things like homosexuality.  They live in many cases in utter isolation from the real world.  The younger leaders, say on the parish level, are a whole different breed and they are not only aware of the increased knowledge regarding issues like homosexuality, they accept it and apply it to their roles as leaders in their respective religious communities.  In Salt Lake City, there are several gay Mormon Wards, the Mormon equivalent of a Parish and the leaders of the Church are aware of their existence and they just sort of seem to turn their heads regarding their existence.  Same goes for the Catholic Church.  In Salt Lake City there are also support groups for Gay Mormon Fathers, Gay Mormon Mothers, staffed by Mormons for Mormon members of the GLTG community.

The governing body of the Mormon Church is the Council of the Twelve Apostles, whom we refer to as the Council of the Twelve Fossils.   No one expects them to make official the changes that are already taking place.  That will come with the next generation.  It should be of no great surprise therefore, that we live openly as a gay couple in a Mormon community and have the total support of the younger Mormon leaders, with whom we deal with on a daily basis on behalf of the community as a whole.

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.  But if you act like you know what the hell you are doing, people will treat you like you do.  That has been our experience anyway.

I guess some people just aren't paying attention! Like Lyle says it doesn't matter Rance.   I guess you and I just look at the world through rose coloured glasses.  Well thank GOD, I would rather that than see the bad in everything!   I guess the world just sucks in the life of some, how sad.

[cabin]

Look you guys.

I think the discussions are getting out of hand, I'm not the moderator or anything.  But it is unpleasant to read some of these things in regards on how each of you present them and not the subject matter.

Why don't you all take a breather and cool it.

I have respect for many of you here because I've either had great discussions or have met in person.

Let's try to address the intent of the thread and direct our comments to that and not to the person you are rebutting.  You all know how I feel about this subject, however, I respect each of you much more than to let it get out of hand.

Happy Valentines Day


edited by cabin:   I would like to clarify that this post is not addressing any particular person it is addressing posts from both sides of this issue.

[shelber]

yeah you know i agree, taking digs at eachother isnt a nice way to have a discussion, re grouping sounds like a good idea. and if i said anything offensive i do apologize

shelly

[Lyle (Mooska)]

I briefly posted yesterday about the fact that we live in a small Mormon town in Northeastern Utah and are utterly accepted in the community as a gay couple and interestingly enough, Salt Lake City has one of the most sophisticated gay communities in the nation.  They are involved in every aspect of Utah Society and manage very well even with the "Official Policy" of the LDS Church being what it is.

 
I guess some people just aren't paying attention! Like Lyle says it doesn't matter Rance.   I guess you and I just look at the world through rose coloured glasses.  Well thank GOD, I would rather that than see the bad in everything!   I guess the world just sucks in the life of some, how sad.

I do not need to be lectured about things going on in Utah.  I actually know and am friends with the person who helped organize the very FIRST gay & lesbian pride parade in that state, Jeff Freedman.

[Kelpersmek]

I also believe that people treat you as you wish them to.  If you sneak around and act like you have something to hide and act guilty and submissive then you will send those signals and be treated accordingly in many cases.

OK, I have to say I find this idea to be exceptionally offensive, but I am sure it was not intended that way.  So in a spirit of trying to understand what is being said here, I'd like to look at my interpretation of it and why that offends me.

The core of it is

people treat you as you wish them to.

Now, this may seem to be in accordance with your own experiences, but let's look at the story Shelly posted.

here is a heart warming and beautiful story........*note the sarcasm*

this happened a few weeks ago, but a co-worker came to work the other night, and was very upset (understandingly so) and her friend was jumped out side of a bar by 2 guys, and beaten really badly, to the point where they may be flying him out to edmonton, yep here in little ol alberta........oh did i mention he was gay...the guy that got jumped

So, if we apply the belief that people treat you as you wish them to, I would interpret that as you saying he behaved in such a way as to encourage people to beat him to a pulp.

Or to put it another way, 'gay people who are attacked bring it on themselves'.
Now, I feel that this is an example of the very worst application of the "Just world hypothesis" where we believe in some sort of karmic redress of our actions, only apply it in reverse:  If something bad happens, we must have done something to invite it.

To add to a victim’s trauma the guilt of having also caused their situation seems to me to be an intolerable cruelty.

Now, I that's what I have understood from your words.  I would invite you to comment on whether or not I have correctly interpreted what you were saying.

[Osprey]

I don't think that we so much look at the world through rose colored glasses as much as our life experiences have been very different.

There are people beaten up and murdered every day in this country, for being Black, for being Latino, for being Jewish, for being Native American, for being Catholic, for being Mormon, for being a bad husband, a bad wife, a bad child, and yes, for being gay.  Being straight is by no means any kind of protection against violence.   This sad young man who went over the edge Monday night in Salt Lake City and walked into a mall and killed five people and critically wounded four others before he was himself killed didn't kill a single gay person, he was just killing people.

I feel bad that Lyle sees the world through such dark eyes, but that is his right, and I am not going to judge his perception, as he has every much as right to his as we have to ours.  I am just so grateful for the changes I have seen in the last 20 years.  We are moving forward and I am also grateful that I live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love.  I hope that one day Lyle lives there too. 

[Osprey]

Kelpersmek,

I would again remind you that you are picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up while neglecting to mention the fact there were thousands of others being beaten up at the same time in other places for other reasons.  I think it must all be kept in perspective.  Is it better to be beaten because you are Jewish than for being gay?  I think that because we are gay that all we see are the gay bashings and we often fail to recognize  that the problem is ignorance and bigotry period, and that we, as gay people, have no monopoly on being bashed.   

It is a terrible thing when anyone is beaten for any reason, we all lose when that happens.

[Lola]

Gerry thanks for trying to keep the peace. 

And Rance, I can't say anything any better than what you said!   


Funny this post started out with "was Jake gay" 

[Lyle (Mooska)]

I feel bad that Lyle sees the world through such dark eyes, but that is his right, and I am not going to judge his perception, as he has every much as right to his as we have to ours.  I am just so grateful for the changes I have seen in the last 20 years.  We are moving forward and I am also grateful that I live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love.  I hope that one day Lyle lives there too.

Excuse me, but this perception that I see the world the way you suggest is completely absurd.  I was just trying to bring a balance to some things that have been posted here that are completely on the other side of the spectrum--the pollyanna side, if you will.  But any facts and figures I have stated keep being shot down with posts of happy couples together, which could be compared to your statement about gays being beaten:  I would again remind you that you are picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up while neglecting to mention the fact there were thousands of others being beaten up at the same time in other places for other reasons.  Why are my facts and figures not also appropriate to your views then?  Are you not picking out selected incidents to support your views?

After all, the topic of this thread is is society really as accepting as it claims?  Above, you just mentioned you are grateful for the changes you have seen in the last 20 years.  Which means there have been changes.  But to completely ignore some of the facts of things I said, that many other people may not be so fortunate to live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love is to ignore the simple fact that if society is really as accepting as it claims then Brokeback Mountain would have made nearly a ripple of notice as it paraded across theatre screens last year, but it didn't.  It caused a lot of controversy for the simple fact that it was about two men in love.  Is society "more" accepting than it used to be.  Of course.  But when surveys show, in the U.S. that a majority of people think gays & lesbians should have equal rights and then ballot measures come up in each state for this purpose, they are nearly unanimously voted down, which means society likes to think they are accepting, but the results are otherwise in the voting booth.

[Tia]

As someone who has been harassed and bullied at times in my life, I know what it's like. I do not mean to sound like a pity party. I was physically attacked once. I did go to the ER but was released. The weirdest thing I remember about it is this: The nurse came and told me she had called the police and they were coming to speak to me. I was so surprised. It never occurred to me that what had been done to me was a crime. It seemed like I just accepted the act but wanted to make sure I was OK physically.

People are always so strong in pairs or numbers but they can never stand alone. The classic bully. I'm sensitive and I will take to heart some of the terrible things I know happen in the world. I may not dwell on them but I think about it daily. The post by shelber are the kinds of things that always make me sick to my stomach.

I do not think everyone is accepting. People can be very ignorant and dishonest. Sometimes mean for the joy of it. I hope I didn't go too much off topic here.

[Kelpersmek]

So, basically have I got your meaning correct?  People invite gay bashings by their own conduct?

I would again remind you that you are picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up while neglecting to mention the fact there were thousands of others being beaten up at the same time in other places for other reasons. 

The fact that many people were being assaulted at the same time does not impact this in any way, whatsoever, in my opinion.  If you lose a loved one in an assault the police would be rather insensitive to say "Look, a lot of people died today for all kinds of reasons."

You say I am "picking out a selected incident where a gay person was beaten up" as if it's unusual.  It's like I picked a statistical blip.  I picked out an incident that took place a short while ago, as relayed by Shelly.  I am using it as an example, because I want to know if you believe that being beaten up was largely/partly his own fault, since you believe that people treat us the way we want to be treated.  The issue of how many other people on the planet were also being attacked is, as far as I can see, utterly irrelevant to the question I was posing. 

I think it must all be kept in perspective.  Is it better to be beaten because you are Jewish than for being gay?

No.  Being beaten up for what you do, or say, I can understand.  Being beaten up for what you are?  That's bigotry.
As for perspective, again, you think that people treat you the way you act like you want to be treated.  So anti-Semites are, by your logic, just picking on Jews because the Jewish people are encouraging that behaviour through their actions. 

I think that because we are gay that all we see are the gay bashings and we often fail to recognize  that the problem is ignorance and bigotry period, and that we, as gay people, have no monopoly on being bashed. 

Um, I'm not gay.  I'm a white heterosexual male.  I don't know why you have suddenly begun to talk about other groups who are persecuted, because as far as I am aware nobody has suggested that gay people are the only ones who get attacked.  The point I was trying to make is that you stated, and have yet to refute, that gay people are attacked because of the way they act, thus bringing trouble onto themselves. 

The larger issue, and the topic of this thread, is about society being accepting.  If you are saying "Well, society persecutes and bashes ALL kinds of minorities, not just gay people!", then that kind of argues that society is *not* as accepting as it claims, doesn't it? 

I mean, I wouldn't define that as "acceptance".  Picture a big guy in his Klu Klux Klan outfit saying "Oh don't get me wrong, I hate Jews and Gays and Chinese folks as much as black guys.  I'm a pretty accepting kind of person like that."

Doesn't really shore up the argument that society is accepting, does it?

It is a terrible thing when anyone is beaten for any reason, we all lose when that happens.

I kind of think the guy bleeding on the ground is losing the most here, in a very literal way.  Wearing rose coloured glasses and saying "Well, I don't see it so it doesn't happen" is not helping to stamp out bigotry.  Quite the opposite. 

Think about it this way: if you had never heard of the Holocaust, would you have used the example of Jews as a persecuted minority? 

If you say "Well, it doesn't happen so much now-a-days" and "We've come a long way", how does that benefit the people who are still, right now, in the real world, being killed for who they are?

We are moving forward and I am also grateful that I live in a place and time that I don't have to fear because of who I choose to love

Good for you, that's swell.  I'm a white heterosexual male, so I never get any hassle about my skin or sexuality.  And hey, I'm lucky enough not to be disabled either, so should I go right ahead and assume nobody is feeling excluded in the world?  I hope one day Lyle lives in a happy trouble-free world too, but I somehow doubt the way to improve the world where Lyle lives it to simply go "Well, things are just peachy where I live!"

Maybe I am looking at the world with "dark eyes", but guess what I see?  People who need help, people who aren't fine and dandy.  And then I realise that although I'm lucky, not everyone else is, and maybe I should be the one to help those less fortunate than me.

[Lola]

Just in case anyone is interested Canada defines marriage as;

"the voluntary union for life of two persons." 

[Lyle (Mooska)]

Left field.