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Author Topic: LGBTQ related news and issues  (Read 711411 times)

bradINblue

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #300 on: March 21, 2007, 12:50:49 PM »
It's not very accepting Meli.

Society, that is ----Gay is ok so long as one is in a 'gay ghetto' like Manhattan or the Keys or SF. It's ...tolerated in other places. Sometimes hugely tolerated and sometimes barely tolerated. But we all know that.

A great deal is lipservice. The older people are, the less tolerance for either gayness or change, it seems. The hope is the new generation, which simply does not care as a generation if someone is gay. IMO

Yep, Jack, and some older gays can't stand this cause they can't hang on to 'victim' status if these changes keep on track. IMO, there becomes a time when we must not dwell in the past. I think society is much for accepting from my perspective. I prefer to savor the now and look brightly to the future.

Brad

oh, and I do appreciate the fight those put up for what I can now savor

« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 02:38:23 PM by bradINblue »

Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #301 on: March 21, 2007, 02:17:34 PM »
I agree that society is not very accepting. And there does seem to be some hope from the younger generation, thank goodness!

I also agree that those of us who are not straight long for revolution where acceptance is concerned and the idea of a gay role model is appealing. But I don't think were making them up.

I also think it's natural to be curious about the lives of our celebrities. There doesn't seem to be an objection when we presume them (whoever they are) to be straight and speculate about which opposite-sex celebrity we think they're dating. What seems not to be okay is to speculate about whether or not they are gay and which same-sex celebrities they might be dating.

And I think that is an example of the point we're making: that society is not very accepting at all.
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

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Offline planetgal471

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #302 on: March 21, 2007, 02:51:04 PM »
I also think it's natural to be curious about the lives of our celebrities. There doesn't seem to be an objection when we presume them (whoever they are) to be straight and speculate about which opposite-sex celebrity we think they're dating. What seems not to be okay is to speculate about whether or not they are gay and which same-sex celebrities they might be dating.

And I think that is an example of the point we're making: that society is not very accepting at all.

Huh, you have a really great point, Jeanine! This is a sort of inequality, isn't it!? Why do people get more upset if you suggest Mr. X is dating Mr. Y than if you suggest Mr. X is dating Ms. Y? That implies a prejudice for sure.
"Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannonballs and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #303 on: March 21, 2007, 02:56:11 PM »
Huh, you have a really great point, Jeanine! This is a sort of inequality, isn't it!? Why do people get more upset if you suggest Mr. X is dating Mr. Y than if you suggest Mr. X is dating Ms. Y? That implies a prejudice for sure.

It is inequality and prejudice.  At best it simply reinforces the notion that heterosexuality is "normal" and therefore everyone should be assumed to be straight unless they say otherwise.  Which is not an accepting attitude of diversity in sexual orientation.  At worse it implies that there is something wrong with being gay/lesbian/bi and therefore the outrage if someone is "falsely accused" of having this sexual orientation.
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Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #304 on: March 21, 2007, 03:01:18 PM »
Huh, you have a really great point, Jeanine! This is a sort of inequality, isn't it!? Why do people get more upset if you suggest Mr. X is dating Mr. Y than if you suggest Mr. X is dating Ms. Y? That implies a prejudice for sure.

It is inequality and prejudice.  At best it simply reinforces the notion that heterosexuality is "normal" and therefore everyone should be assumed to be straight unless they say otherwise.  Which is not an accepting attitude of diversity in sexual orientation.  At worse it implies that there is something wrong with being gay/lesbian/bi and therefore the outrage if someone is "falsely accused" of having this sexual orientation.

That really has been my point all along and you've both said it so well!
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

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Offline planetgal471

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #305 on: March 21, 2007, 03:02:06 PM »
Yeah, I can see that. It's like "straight until proven guilty." We need to do more equal-opportunity being-nosey-celebrity-watchers. Well, I don't think we have the problem, but I mean "we" as in society.
"Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannonballs and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #306 on: March 21, 2007, 03:55:32 PM »
There was a comedy series on Radio 4 years ago called the Mark Steel Solution.  One episode proposed that one way to deal with homophobia was to make "everyone gay for two years" (in a process similar to national service).  It's a daft idea but it raised some good points, one of which was that there would be very little tabloid shock value if every celebrity had to come out at some point.  And I wonder if 10% (or more!) of the film, TV and music industry came out all at once, if may be the newspapers and magazines and gossip sites might just go "What?  Another one?  Mmm, lets stick a picture of Britney Spears on the front page instead!"  Just a thought...
"I've more than one membership
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and I owe my life to the people that I love"
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Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #307 on: March 21, 2007, 05:48:10 PM »
Really? That's pretty cool. I like it when somebody starts a thread and it doesn't languish until the archivers come to take the corpse. All that 'Is He Or Isn't He'  stuff sort of skeeves me out though: nobodies business but theirs.

I'm going to go out on a limd here and disagree somewhat. Anyone in the public spotlight is a role model. Maybe they didn't apply for the positition, but when you go to a casting call and want to make a name for yourself, it is part of the job description. And America is utterly lacking in big name hott A-list gay celebrities. So lacking, in fact, that we're scanning the available big name hott A-list celebs and declaring some of them gay so they can be our role models. Even straight America wants to see people who don't fit into their work environments as role models. We're all struggling through our daily lives, not with drugs and orgies, but with just fitting in on a daily basis. That's what we want to see in our role models. How to navigate the struggles of coming out, of fitting in, with grace and poise. So we find these successful people who don't have an aversion to being with another man, and who haven't settled down with a woman, and we imagine they are navigating these struggles.

Their personal lives aren't really our business, granted. But when sharing a little tidbit could enrich tens or hundreds of thousands of American lives, could start a revolution, it may just be a little bit of their responsibility to do so.

And I don't mean Jake, and I don't mean Heath, I mean whoever is closetted in Hollywood, because I'm sure it someone.
I agree with you to an extent, limited by a strong belief that NOBODY has a right or the right to run roughshod over an individual's life and out him or her for any reason whatsoever. It's up to the person involved, and no one else.
The only exception I can hesitantly and possibly see would be, say, a big star who lives gay sleeps gay denies gay vehemently, while marrying repeatedly and adopting childrento maintain a complete fiction; yes I do have someone in mind but that's not my right to say whom.
The recent spate of actors being forcibly outed, while not being hypocrites--living quietly, having partners, etc-- and just not saying one way or the other was and is very wrong, IMHO. They have a right to privacy away from the camera, straight OR gay: nobodies business but theirs.
They have a right to live the way they want. No, the public does not have the right to know every detail about someone, "just because".

Oh and I want to say this, too: I almost started a war on another thread by mocking the pairing of JG and Reese Witherspoon, as in who says so, has he said so, has she said so? No, some TABLOID said so! And for pointing out that some of the Reese lovers only wanted him to be with her because deep deep down they believed that if he was with HER, he could fall for the 50 year old person posting!

It's all vicarious BS!
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #308 on: March 21, 2007, 06:32:00 PM »
There was a comedy series on Radio 4 years ago called the Mark Steel Solution.  One episode proposed that one way to deal with homophobia was to make "everyone gay for two years" (in a process similar to national service).  It's a daft idea but it raised some good points, one of which was that there would be very little tabloid shock value if every celebrity had to come out at some point.  And I wonder if 10% (or more!) of the film, TV and music industry came out all at once, if may be the newspapers and magazines and gossip sites might just go "What?  Another one?  Mmm, lets stick a picture of Britney Spears on the front page instead!"  Just a thought...

Ooh ooh ooh (Horshack-style)!

What if all the currently popular celebrity "leads", the ones most likely to be picked for straight romantic roles, came out? Kind of like "To Tell the Truth" or "the Mole" where they all say they are the mystery person.

If they could maintain that through 2-3 years of movies and Hollywood knew some of them were lying but didn't know who, and thus, had to hire them solely on the basis of their acting skill (imagine that??), it could revolutionize Hollywood!

I love that idea!!

Somebody start calling the actors...

 ;D
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

(Thank you, myeyesain'tblue!)

Offline planetgal471

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #309 on: March 21, 2007, 10:04:12 PM »
yes I do have someone in mind but that's not my right to say whom.

Well, actually, it is quite within you rights to speculate about this sort of thing. It falls short of slander because speculating on somene's sexual orientation, or who they're dating regardless of sexual orientation, is not maligning their character. It may not be something you choose to do, but it is most definitely your right to do so. Otherwise there couldn't be such a thing as tabloids.

Tabloids have a bad name, and that's fair because paps can be intrusive and sometimes almost violent, but I have to say it's to all fair because tabloids represent free press at it free-est, capitalism firmly keeping the powers that be in check. It may be a dark side to the proper working of uor society, but I think it does help our society function. Think about the rein the American public can keep on politicians just via the camera lens of a pap photographer and the dollars we spend on tabloids at newsstands. Anyway, I think this is off-topic now.
"Speak what you think today in words as hard as cannonballs and tomorrow speak what tomorrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said today." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance

Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #310 on: March 21, 2007, 11:41:15 PM »
answered in PM
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #311 on: March 22, 2007, 04:18:35 PM »
I find this thread somewhat perplexing.  'Society' is a very nebulous term - WHAT society are we talking about here?  Rural American society?  Hollywood society?  Cuban society?  And questioning if it is 'accepting as it claims' seems presumptuous to me.  Who ever said that all societies in all of their manifestations are accepting?

I don't think that people generally agree that worldwide 'society' is accepting of homosexuality.  Here are some examples:

http://www.godhatesfags.com

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/jamaica1104/

http://www.thegully.com/essays/gaymundo/040827_gay_lesbian_poland.html

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/04/un_agency_confi.html

I would point out to you that same-sex marriage is only legal in five countries (Canada, Belgium, Spain, Netherlands and South Africa).  That leaves close to 200 countries where it is not legal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_same-sex_marriage

Moving on to military service there are around 37 countries that allow openly gay people to serve.  There are 11 countries (including the U.S., Cuba, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Syria - among others) that specifically do not allow military service by openly lesbian and gay people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gays_in_the_military

The majority of religious belief systems (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Sikh, Conservative Judaism), which represent the vast majority of people in the world, believe that homosexual behavior is sinful:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fixe.htm

There are still many countries where homosexual activity is against the law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world

So, in summary, I have to say I'm confused by this thread.  Who ever said that society (whatever that is) is accepting?

BTW, I agree with what Brad said here earlier - thinking of oneself as a victim is useless and psychologically crippling.  What people think about me really has little or no effect on my day to day existence - and frankly, I don't really care what they think.  If they get up in my face that's a different matter, but that doesn't happen that much (thankfully).  Perhaps if I were trying to get into the military or get married I might feel differently, but that is not the case.  For me, life is pretty good.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Lance

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #312 on: March 22, 2007, 04:59:33 PM »
''The majority of religious belief systems (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Sikh, Conservative Judaism), which represent the vast majority of people in the world, believe that homosexual behavior is sinful:''

The vast majority? How many Buddhists and Hindus are there?
And agnostics and atheists?
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #313 on: March 22, 2007, 05:07:11 PM »
''The majority of religious belief systems (Islam, Roman Catholicism, Sikh, Conservative Judaism), which represent the vast majority of people in the world, believe that homosexual behavior is sinful:''

The vast majority? How many Buddhists and Hindus are there?
And agnostics and atheists?

Okay - majority (54% between Christianity and Islam).

Here's a pie chart.  If you're counting agnostics and atheists, btw, you'd need to account for Marxists, who (if they are doctrinaire they believe homosexuality is a Bourgeoisie illness) and would fit in with the unaccepting.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Lance

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #314 on: March 22, 2007, 05:13:33 PM »
I'm thinking agnostics who are scattered all over the world in ''Muslim'', ''Christian'', etc. countries. Would be very difficult to count them, I suspect.
Strictly speaking, Marxism, no matter how much faith in it is involved, is a political philosophy, not a religion. It comes down to individual opinion amongst them whether they adhere to all of its assumptions.
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