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Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #345 on: March 29, 2007, 06:10:57 AM »
I agree with Brad.  Discomfort isn't homophobia (or isn't always, at least) - often it's just surprise or unfamiliarity.  If you were homophobic you wouldn't be here.  Don't beat yourself up.

I agree that discomfort is not homophobia,
but I believe that it comes from homophobia, and it can lead to homophobia.

So when you grow up in a homophobic society, you hardly ever see gays in the streets, holding each other's hand,
or kissing. And that's because they are hiding, because society is homophobic and hates them etc etc.
So when you see that once, you are shocked, because you are not used to this.
So this is how the shock comes from homophobia. (Not your homophobia, but society's).

Now the thing is that this shock can either stop there, or continue the cycle of the already existing homophobia.
What I am saying is, that if we are shocked, and don't want to see gays being intimate on the streets,
and we show our discomfort, then gays will continue to hide. Imagine how uncomfortable you would feel
if everybody was looking at you shocked, whenever you kissed your boyfriend.

What I am suggesting is the following: Since you have no problem with gays, and since you realize
that your reaction should not be like that at the sight of gays kissing, then you should do something to change that.
What you need IMO, is much much exposure to gays kissing/holding/whatever. You can "force" yourself
and go to gay bars, and have a drink there, and go again and again until you get used to this,
until you react to this normally, just like you react with straights.

I personally did this to myself, when I wanted to check if I would react differently at the sight of real gays in front of
me, instead of cinema/TV. It turned out that I had no discomfort at all (actually I Loved it). But in case I found out the opposite,
I was determined to go again and again, until I cured myself.
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bradINblue

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #346 on: March 29, 2007, 11:16:47 AM »
zth, I understand what you are getting at, but if sugarcheryl were to visit most gay bars, at least near where I live, she would probably be repulsed. Porno on video screens, nude dancers, scary drag queens with attitude, groping in dark corners, botoxed older men with twenty-something year old twinks hanging on them for drinks and more. IMO, very little that would cure any sensible, understanding straight person of their apprehension with gay men. Perhaps a straight bar that is gay-friendly?

Brad

Offline sugarcheryl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #347 on: March 29, 2007, 02:23:24 PM »
Im not sure that I have any unresolved feelings about my girlfriend. To tell you the truth....that relatiionship was at a real low point in my life. I had just had my first baby....the father of my daughter didnt want to have anything to do with us...blah blah blah. My girlfriend and I werent even really "friends" We got to talking one day....(I actually worked for her boyfriend)....about her "giving" me to her boyfriend as a birthday present. lol! Well that didnt happen....I dont know how it happened....but one conversation lead to another and I ended up in the shower with this girl....lol! I thought....what the hell!?....shes very very beautiful....tall, thin....long red hair....why not?! So we started "seeing" each other. I could sleep with her boyfriend if I wanted.....but for the most part it was just me and her. However as the relationship progressed, she became more and more needy and smothered me so much that I couldnt breathe. I was not inlove with her boyfriend and I still loved men....so it was hard for me to be "faithful" to them. I didnt want to sleep with her boyfriend....I liked him and all....but he didnt turn me on and I actually started to regress (if that is the correct word) We started to fight more and more and finally I just couldnt take it. I loved her dearly and told her so.....told her that I would of loved to "marry" her.....but that I am not lesbian and still want to have a significant relationship with a man. I know that sounds crazy....but it worked for her...but did not work for me. She did not want to share me with anyone but herself and her boyfriend....for me to have one was not going to happen. We broke up very very bitter. Many many years have passed since then. THEN I meet another girl in my office....work with her for a really long time....go on a couple vacations....have small talk....come to find out that her and her husband are swingers....tell her about what I have done in my past....which in comparison to her life was not very impressive lol! We start to get really really close. I start to have "feelings" for her and her for me. Once again though.....the smothering and the pressure mounts and I start to regress. I guess I dont like to be pressured. The pressure was just too much and to tell you the truth both her and her husband started to scare me. Like I was their possesion. I couldnt stand it! She would wait for me after work or stand there at my desk hoping that I would invite her over....I could smell it....feel it. It scared me. I backed off ALOT!!!! Went on one more vacation with them and would sorta hide from them or pretend to be asleep so they wouldnt want to have sex with me. I dunno....I know this all sounds sordid. But Im a good girl and was I guess experimenting alot. I DO think that I am BI Sexual.....I LOVE women!!!! But I am not a lesbian. I LOVE men too lol!

You know I really think that this all has to do with my childhood....something that I have carried with me throughout it. I have always been a sexual person....even at a very young age....I started masturbating when I was in grammar school. I am backwards in alot of what I am saying. I was a virgin til 14......but the pressure to have sex was very strong in school. But I wasnt going to have anything to do with that. I had been sexual...yet when it came to actual sex or even looking at a penis....I would run. Until high school and that all changed. My parents really never talked to me about anything. It was very taboo I guess. I dunno. I did have feelings for other girls in school...never really made it known, just felt it....but still loved boys more. I will say though that in thinking back....I have always felt strange or uncomfortable around things that are "out of the norm".....girls that were pregnant in my school made me uncomfortable and I would stare at them....interracial couples....and of course gays and lesbians. Never a hater or anything.....just like I said uncomfortable.

I was watching this show the other day....about gays and lesbians.....a lesbian couple were parting ways at the airport and all they did was hug and kiss goodbye....no tongues or groping or anything like that....and as they were doing this some "jackass" lady walked by and said, "get a room girls" I was soooo hurt and mortified for these poor girls that they could not even show the smallest of affection for each other without hearing something like that. To tell you the truth they could of just been sisters for all this dumb ass woman knew saying goodbye to each other. It was really quite innocent.....so I guess to answer the question of is society really as accepting as it claims?....NO! I have proved it, whether or not I like it....I was uncomfortable....as much as I hate to admit it, I was. I would never voice myself to any gays or lesbians, because like I said before I care not what they do. They have all the rights to do so. Just was surprised at myself like I said and somewhat dissappointed that I would feel that at all after the things that I have done in my life.

Sorry for the rambling and I hope this made sense.
You boys sure found a way to make the time pass up there. Twist, you guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs babysittin' the sheep while you stemmed the rose.

Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #348 on: March 29, 2007, 03:17:47 PM »
zth, I understand what you are getting at, but if sugarcheryl were to visit most gay bars, at least near where I live, she would probably be repulsed. Porno on video screens, nude dancers, scary drag queens with attitude, groping in dark corners, botoxed older men with twenty-something year old twinks hanging on them for drinks and more. IMO, very little that would cure any sensible, understanding straight person of their apprehension with gay men. Perhaps a straight bar that is gay-friendly?

Brad

Well, yeah, of course I understand this. In this case, a gay-friendly bar would be much better..
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Offline LSky94

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #349 on: March 29, 2007, 04:58:46 PM »
Sugarcheryl,

After reading your posts, especially the first one on being "uncomfortable" around the same sex couple who kissed in front of you,  I wondered how the two tent scenes in BBM made you feel?  Did you feel "uncomfortable" then or was it different because it was an acted scene in a film? I am just curious how you reconcile the film to real life, since it seems you have a love for the film (or is that just a love for the artistic merits of BBM and not the content), yet similar "real-life" situations make you uncomfortable. 

Offline sugarcheryl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #350 on: March 29, 2007, 05:13:34 PM »
Good question.....I will be honest here and tell you that the first few times I watched BBM I sorta look away....and somewhat do now....but it has nothing to do with male to male...shoot it could be male to female, female to female or 2 animals going at it. I still turn away......I get flushed and turn down my eyes....even at the reunion scene with the boys kissing....I turn a side my head. Just makes me uncomfortable. I dont know why....its on tv for GODs sake. Im just wondering (my psycho analyzing myself) if it has anything to do with my home life. My parents NEVER were affectionate in front of us...never played or kidded around....they were not affectionate at all with me or my brother. Not that they didnt love us.....but definitly as we grew out of our cute little baby-ness....the tenderness and the affection stopped. I am wondering if that has anything to do with it. I dont think I turn away at straight couples kissing....not that I sit there and stare....but no uncomfortable feelings there. I dunno....doesnt really make any sense to me. Just was thinking that maybe my upbringing had something to do with it. It would seem that it is only the "real-life" male to male or female to female affections that make me uncomfortable and yet everything on tv (love scene wise) makes me uncomfortable. Make any sense? LOL! But I get over it for the LOVE of my movie. Gosh....I lpve everything about the movie (well minus the Cassie scenes....seem to have a real "hate" for her)....more then anything the acting. How Jake and Heath emerged themselves into Jack and Ennis and became Jack and Ennis. Superb acting....superb!
You boys sure found a way to make the time pass up there. Twist, you guys wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs babysittin' the sheep while you stemmed the rose.

Offline LSky94

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #351 on: March 29, 2007, 05:46:22 PM »
Thanks for answering the question, sugarcheryl, and the honesty.   I think maybe your reaction does probably have a lot to do with your childhood, and anything that is out of the "ordinary" is probably still difficult for your mind to process due to the conditioning, even though you "know" intellectually that you do not hate the ppl involved.   Your relative ease with seeing male-female interaction, despite the lack of affection between your parents,  is probably because it is EVERYwhere we look, on the street, on tv, in film, in books, in plays, etc etc.  Anyway, now that we have played Psychologist, I again want to say thanks for your honest answers and willingness to share with us your thoughts.     

Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #352 on: March 31, 2007, 08:03:43 AM »
I get neurotic/nervous at seeing 2 men kissing on the street. Not that you see it here; mostly back in NY.
I get neurotic at guys holding hands in public.
Am I completely at ease with gay men? yeah.
Am I offended at it? nope [ well, the whole bar scene can close down so far as I'm concerned but that's a preference, have no use for it]

Am I a 'straight male'? nope.

Just neurotic
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

MonteCristo

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #353 on: March 31, 2007, 09:19:08 AM »
Sugarcheryl, interesting that you mentioned the television show where lesbians were kissing goodbye at the airport and a passerby told them to "get a room".  Airports are one of the few places where I feel discrimination and don't like it a bit.  First off, in general my partner and I keep our hands off each other in public.  We know people can be offended/uncomfortable/embarrassed by homo or hetero kissy-huggy stuff.  And homo would probably be more disturbing to most folks.  I'm fine with that, don't care to watch people smooching and groping either.   However, if one of us has had to be away from home for awhile its like Jack says: "Sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it".  So when we meet at the airport I just want to grab/hold/kiss him and instead we do some lame-ass handshake and perhaps a polite hug---if we're feeling really adventurous.  Hetero couples all around us are running slo-mo through fields of daisies, swinging each other in the air and kissing till they pass out unconscious.  Its not fair I tell you. ;)

Monte

Offline maidenofthesea

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #354 on: March 31, 2007, 06:03:49 PM »
My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever. I have to be honest, I don't even give it a second thought other than the satisfaction I get from watching people disgusted and yet not look away.

I feel comfortable enough to do it and so does she which I understand is not the case with everyone, but it is what works for us. It's showing our love and perhaps sending out a little message. People will never get used to it unless we get out there and act just like everyone else.

We walked around downtown Baltimore holding hands and of course we got the ignorant minded stares but a black woman stopped and looked at us and said 'now that's what I'm talking about.'

So you have to take the bad with the good. I've always believed that silence and inaction solves nothing when it comes to creating tolerance and acceptance.



He made his way closer to Jack, when he passed a mirror and had to stop and comb his greasy dirty-blonde locks.

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Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #355 on: March 31, 2007, 10:59:39 PM »
My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever. I have to be honest, I don't even give it a second thought other than the satisfaction I get from watching people disgusted and yet not look away.

I feel comfortable enough to do it and so does she which I understand is not the case with everyone, but it is what works for us. It's showing our love and perhaps sending out a little message. People will never get used to it unless we get out there and act just like everyone else.

We walked around downtown Baltimore holding hands and of course we got the ignorant minded stares but a black woman stopped and looked at us and said 'now that's what I'm talking about.'

So you have to take the bad with the good. I've always believed that silence and inaction solves nothing when it comes to creating tolerance and acceptance.

Chas, I admire you for deciding to display affection no matter what response you get. I understand your point! I just don't have your kahunas moxie! ;)

Shelly and I, also interracial, are not so bold.
"Ya ain't got a problem, Hank... Yer justa l'il sad is all... 'S ta be 'xpected when bad stuff happens... 'n ya got a righ' ta be sad 'bout it...", Ed in Ed and Hank.

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Offline milomorris

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #356 on: April 01, 2007, 12:27:17 AM »

My girlfriend and I (and we are interracial to boot) hold hands everywhere and kiss goodbye at airports, shopping malls, the street, whatever.




Shelly and I, also interracial, are not so bold.


Interesting. My partner (a white guy) and I usually avoid traditional public displays of affection (PDAs). We have developed a set of gestures--our little sign language--to express ourselves in public. There are those times, though, when nothing less than a kiss or a hug will do.

Hey!!! Maybe we should start an interracial relationships thread here at DC?!?!
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Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #357 on: April 01, 2007, 07:44:28 AM »
in general my partner and I keep our hands off each other in public.  We know people can be offended/uncomfortable/embarrassed by homo or hetero kissy-huggy stuff.

I think that in general there's a polite level of public affection, regardless of orientation.
While it's acceptable for me to kiss my wife in public, it's not generally acceptable to go into a passionate French kiss when you're standing with people right next to you. 
Holding hands, arm around a shoulder or waist, just walking together in contact and smiling at one another... these are totally acceptable and normal things which heterosexual couples can do without making people uncomfortable (well, the vast majority of people). 

It's the kind of thing that people shouldn't look twice at, but with same-sex or interracial couples they attract a lot of unwanted attention.  I am always cheered by the sight of LGBT couples holding hands in public.  I take it as a small sign that the culture is making progress.  People won't get used to it unless it happens, and I am really pleased to know that people begin to relax enough to share a small moment of tenderness in public view without the fear of repercussions.  They are showing that there is nothing wrong with them, nothing to be hidden behind doors, away from the public.

(I have to say I don't even usually notice interracial couples as anything "out-of-the-ordinary".  I suppose if I was in an area where racial tension is higher, I would.  It's just not my personal experience.)

I suppose the first step is having to put up with the occasional asshat who yells abuse, and the fear of something violent.  Then we get to s atsge where people may glare or shift about uncomfortably, and then eventually it just changes into general interest.  Eventually we might get to the stage where a public kiss is not a remarkable event.

What gets me though, is that it has to be one of the most alienating, disheartening things.  At the same time, it's hardly a huge step for people to make the leap from "gay people exist (/interracial couples exist)" to "that would explain the two guys kissing".  Infuriating.

In Orwell's 1984, the real evil is the methods that society uses to crush people.  People focus on the constant surveillance from telescreens, but in fact I always think it's the little things which have the greatest impact.  Dull razors, unappetising food, demonising sex...
I kind of feel that the social pressure not to show affection in public must be like that for LGBT couples.  It's not just the threat of possible violence, it's the general low level hate and discomfort that will be drawn out of almost any large enough crowd.  Having to bear it in mind every time you leave privacy.  It's horrible.

I'd be interested to hear people's actual experiences of reaction to public affection.  Is it your experience that it is a hidden but palpable reaction, or overt censure?  When there is a reaction/lack of reaction, is it generally less of a reaction than you expect, or more vicious than you anticipated?

Offline Kelpersmek

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #358 on: April 01, 2007, 07:52:56 AM »
I was determined to go again and again, until I cured myself.

Bravo Zth, that was brilliantly said.

I think you've hit it pretty much spot on with what people can do to help.
The ingrained prejudices of society have caused us to have pretty fucked up reactions to things which we know in our brain to be perfectly normal.  We have to take steps to cure ourselves (and I am sure different things will help different people).

Offline john john

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #359 on: April 01, 2007, 09:09:00 AM »
It's fascinating to me how people can tolerate violence and yet be so bothered by demonstrations of love and affection.

Having to hide your love is denying it.