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Author Topic: LGBTQ related news and issues  (Read 704326 times)

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #435 on: May 18, 2007, 01:03:20 PM »
Thanks you for the link Joyce. I don't see society and fundamental Christianity (or any religion that teaches homosexuality to be a sin) under the same umbrella regarding acceptance. No amount of activisim, positive example or reasoning is likely to change these minds: The Roman Catholic Church, requires homosexuals to practice chastity in the understanding that homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered", and "contrary to the natural law". It insists that the only appropriate expression of sexuality is within the context of marriage, which by definition is permanent, procreative, heterosexual, and monogamous. Society, as a whole, does not adopt this doctrine.

IMO, the gauge of acceptance isn't neccesarily in the eyes of the beholder but in the minds of 'us'. Many responses by forum members who live their lives in the company of a same-sex companion or who are living 'gay' and have hesitated in coming out for fear of disdain/unacceptance, have been suprised by the 'it's not a big deal and nobody really seems to care' experience. Most of those that go on and on about unequality/non-acceptance/hate-around-every-corner don't speak from actual experience but from what they assume and what certain victim-activist groups write and/or preach. I am seeing through my year interacting here (prior to BBM my head was burried firmly in the sand  :) ), people who aren't homosexual seem to want to perpetuate this and throw in their two cents, without a thread of knowing what it is really like to be homo.

Brad

I agree that you cannot change the minds of people within religions.  However, I don't think that society does not adopt or is not influenced by these concepts.  The many states which restrict adoptions reflect the notions that gay unions are inappropriate for raising children.  Many of the people who support these notions are people who buy the 'intinsically morally disordered' line of thinking.  It also informs the line of thinking of people who are against gay marriage:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20000214/ireland

And, of course, these individuals vote - they help defeat initiatives that would support gay marriage:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6383353/

In Michigan this had the effect of overturning all civil unions - not just gay marriage.  This affects people by making health benefits unavailable to the gay partners of public employees who previously had them:

http://www.dailypressandargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070510/NEWS01/705100316/1002

When I speak about hate and unacceptance, I do so from a personal standpoint.  I have been out as a gay man since 1972.  I have had multiple physical attacks on me as well as innumerable slurs.  I have had friends who were shot (and killed), I have had friends lose jobs when it became apparent that they were gay (one in the public sector and one in the private sector).  One of my friends from this site had a lover who had the navy sue him for all of his expenses for college when they found out he was gay.  When he didn't pay they went after his parents.

I know of other people here who have lost friends when they came out (a religious sort) and another whose family does not want the lover around.

That being said a lot of people don't really care too much about who you sleep with or go home to.  They really just want to get home themselves and have a good life.  I'm always surprised when people make an issue out of it - still.  But it happens - I'm still seeing it and it still happens to me.  In the last year I've had two incidents - one with a guy over 70, the other with a girl in her teens.

I'm not looking for it - I don't want it and I would be more than happy if it went away.  But it doesn't seem to have, yet.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #436 on: May 18, 2007, 02:06:24 PM »
Actually, people do speak with hate about homosexuals.
All my friends are straight, and all of them never miss a chance to make a hatefull comment
when the discussion comes to gays.

I am 100%  sure that they would never hurt a gay man. But still, they do make bad jokes,
and always say how disgusting and perverts gay men are. Some of them would most probably
leave a bar, if gays were arround them, just not to be near them. But this is only in words. They would never actually start
a direct fight, regrdless what they say.

I don't know what happens in other countries though.
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Offline Boris

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #437 on: May 18, 2007, 02:34:31 PM »
Actually, people do speak with hate about homosexuals.
All my friends are straight, and all of them never miss a chance to make a hatefull comment
when the discussion comes to gays.

I am 100%  sure that they would never hurt a gay man. But still, they do make bad jokes,
and always say how disgusting and perverts gay men are. Some of them would most probably
leave a bar, if gays were arround them, just not to be near them. But this is only in words. They would never actually start
a direct fight, regrdless what they say.


How would I know that? How would any gay person know? And would it be wise for a gay man to trust people who use language like that?

I live in another country. What I can tell you is that fear is universal. The trick is to know when there is real reason to be afraid. I agree w. Brad the overplaying the victim makes us not only look weak, but it makes us weak because it makes us incapable of recognizing true threat when it's there.

Your friends may not be violent, but how would I know that they aren't?

Let's imagine an evening. I come into a bar that's full of your friends. They tell jokes like that, share their disgust and loathing about anything gay. Guess what happens: I shut up about me being gay and leave. because I can't be sure. Now... when we talk about acceptance or tolerance in communities I have faced nothing but goodwill. But I am not always surrounded by friends or in place I can feel secure.

The point isn't if your friends hit me or not. It's about real fear. I don't know your friends but i would have good reason to believe the situation to be too threatening for me to be out as a gay man. And that's what it causes: we cease to be ourselves out of fear. That's the flipside of hate when you face it.

At the same time it isn't healthy or productive to see hatred in people or places where there is none or interpret confusion or indifference as hatred. It doesn't help and in fact it may leave us to be more vulnerable.
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Offline AHappyMan

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #438 on: May 18, 2007, 03:04:47 PM »
Actually, people do speak with hate about homosexuals.
All my friends are straight, and all of them never miss a chance to make a hatefull comment
when the discussion comes to gays.

I am 100%  sure that they would never hurt a gay man. But still, they do make bad jokes,
and always say how disgusting and perverts gay men are. Some of them would most probably
leave a bar, if gays were arround them, just not to be near them. But this is only in words. They would never actually start
a direct fight, regrdless what they say.

I don't know what happens in other countries though.

Wow. I don't know if you're a man or woman, straight or gay.

But kiddo, I think you need a better class of friends.

Offline lowcountrygirl

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #439 on: May 19, 2007, 10:03:57 AM »
Man charged in S. Carolina gay slaying
published Friday, May 18, 2007
 
"An 18-year-old has been charged with murder in the death Wednesday of a gay Greenville, S.C., man who suffered fatal injuries after being punched in the face outside a bar that was having a 'Teen Night.'

Investigators believe Sean Kennedy, 20, was targeted because of his sexual orientation, the Greenville News reported Friday. Kennedy's friends told authorities he was openly gay. "

http://www.gay.com/news/article.html?2007/05/18/4
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Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #440 on: May 20, 2007, 10:22:30 AM »
How would I know that? How would any gay person know? And would it be wise for a gay man to trust people who use language like that?

I live in another country. What I can tell you is that fear is universal. The trick is to know when there is real reason to be afraid. I agree w. Brad the overplaying the victim makes us not only look weak, but it makes us weak because it makes us incapable of recognizing true threat when it's there.

Your friends may not be violent, but how would I know that they aren't?

You are absolutely right! You cannot know wheather they will be violent or not. And I am sure it depends on which country you are,
and in which area of this country you are. At least here, noone could cause a problem in a bar or cafeteria. The manager of the place
would have to call the police. You think even violent homophobes would like to deal with the police?

Let's imagine an evening. I come into a bar that's full of your friends. They tell jokes like that, share their disgust and loathing about anything gay. Guess what happens: I shut up about me being gay and leave. because I can't be sure. Now... when we talk about acceptance or tolerance in communities I have faced nothing but goodwill. But I am not always surrounded by friends or in place I can feel secure.

Shut up and leave?  This is exactly what they would want you to do. This is IMO a very wrong reaction.
You should simply ignore them. Act as if they are not there. I understand that this could be difficult, but
it is the only way.

They learned to use fear to control you. Don't let fear control you. I don't know you, do you have straight friends?
Have you come out to them and to your family, and to your work?

As long as gays keep themselves in the closet, straights will never get used to see same-sex people holding
hands and kissing. So when they see it once in their life, they will only react homophobically. If gays come out of
the closet, and start walking in the streets, then what will the straights do? Start beating up everybody?
If they see it everywhere and every time, they will get used to it.

If gays keep hiding (either because of fear, or because of shame), we will have an endless loop. When there is a problem,
you should face it, instead of running away from it. It might take time and efford, but it will eventually be solved.

You will say : "I just want to peacefully live my life".
I will say : "You have to fight for your right".

I am not an english speaker, so I hope what I wrote made sense to you.   :-\
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Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #441 on: May 20, 2007, 10:28:00 AM »
Wow. I don't know if you're a man or woman, straight or gay.

But kiddo, I think you need a better class of friends.

Well, it doesn't really matter if I am a man or a woman, straight or gay.
I wish I had even one gay friend. Where can I find him? At least I am making my effords against homophobia, with my homophobic friends.
I even managed to take one of them to a gay club.  And he was fine with it!   8)
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Offline chiaros

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #442 on: June 03, 2007, 06:43:45 AM »
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gayrights/story/0,,2093006,00.html

and in case western europeans (brits, anyway) believe they are done with all this...
http://johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1129
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 12:23:18 PM by chiaros »
INTP

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #443 on: June 03, 2007, 09:47:44 PM »
Thanks Chairos!  That was an interesting article.  Here's one from rural Minnesota:

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1220986.html
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #444 on: June 05, 2007, 12:47:39 PM »
You will say : "I just want to peacefully live my life".
I will say : "You have to fight for your right".

Sorry but I don't understand this statement at all.  Why should someone who is gay or lesbian have to fight for the rights that heterosexuals take for granted?  LGBT folks have been discriminated against and fighting for their rights for decades, if not centuries.   Some progress has been made but many inequalities still exist.  It is unfair to place the blame for this on sexual minorities because they somehow 'haven't tried hard enough'.

Perhaps, I've misunderstood what you meant by this :-\
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Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #445 on: June 05, 2007, 02:10:05 PM »
All I am trying to say, is that they shouldn't give up.

For example, gays have the right to get married. They have the right,
just like everybody else.

But because of homophobes, they are not allowed to do that. In order to achieve that, they will have to fight for it.
Homophobes would just love to see gays give up, because in this way, gays will never be able to get married, and that
is exactly what homophobes want.

Right now, straights are more in number than gays. Imagine if gays were more (or equal) in number than straights.
What would happen then? The majority would want gays to ba able to marry. And gays would be able to marry.

Right now, it is about majority. But what I am asking is : Is this the real majority? 10% of the population is gay?
What about the ones who are hiding? If they came out, we might realize that the percentage of gays vs straights
would change. Maybe it would be 50% gays. We will never know that, until each gay person in the world realizes that and
comes out of the closet. Do you get my point here?   :-\

You are asking me, why should gays fight for their rights?
Well, because for whatever the reason, the rights that they are supposed to have, are taken away from them.
Shouldn't they fight for them? Are you suggesting that hiding in order to live a peacefull (but dead) life is better? This would only keep
the problem instead of solving it IMO.
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Offline merrobot

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #446 on: June 05, 2007, 02:53:50 PM »
Right now, straights are more in number than gays. Imagine if gays were more (or equal) in number than straights.
What would happen then? The majority would want gays to ba able to marry. And gays would be able to marry.

Rights are rights regardless of numbers.  It doesn't matter if 10% or 100% or 0.001% of the population is gay - the same rights should be extended to all legal, consenting adults.  I think what you are actually getting at is, if the LGBT community is to have equality with heterosexuals then they have to have straight folk on side too.  If it's numbers that make the difference then that is the only way.  The question is then, how do we get heterosexuals to support gay rights?

Quote
You are asking me, why should gays fight for their rights?
Well, because for whatever the reason, the rights that they are supposed to have, are taken away from them.
Shouldn't they fight for them? Are you suggesting that hiding in order to live a peacefull (but dead) life is better? This would only keep the problem instead of solving it IMO.

I'm saying that they shouldn't have to fight - heterosexuals, after all, do not have to fight for their rights.  And I am most certainly not saying that people should hide in order to have a "peaceful life" although I can understand why some people may do this.  The fear that is felt by some gay men and lesbians in some parts of the world is justified and to be open about their sexuality could be dangerous, if not life-threatening as we have seen in some of the articles that have been posted here recently.    That being said, it would be interesting to see what effect an increase in coming out among LGBT "celebrities" would have.  :) 
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to more than one club
and I owe my life to the people that I love"
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Offline zth

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #447 on: June 05, 2007, 03:14:39 PM »
merrobot, I am not disagreeing with you.

I know that gays should not have to fight for their rights. But this is in theory.

The fact remains. In real life, homophobic society has taken away gay's rights. So what is left to do?
Fight to get those rights back.

It would be very helpful and good, if gay-friendly straights would support gays.
But, gays should do their part too. Come out of the closet. Don't feel ashamed of themselves.
Realize that there is nothing wrong with them.

Of course I am not talking about extreme situations, where gays would have serious life-threatening problems by coming out.
But in countries where nobody would harm them, the least that they could do, is to come out.
In this way, straights will see them. They will get used to them. They will interact with them. They will realize that
gays are people, and not threatening aliens!

It is a very basic step that has to be done. I keep listening to stories about
gays forever hiding, in order not to upset their parents! Or in order not to loose their friends!!!
This is unacceptable for me.  This is one of the main reasons that homophobia still exists.
And it is very easy to solve this part. When this is solved, we can go further, to the more extreme and dangerous situations
like nationalism etc etc. One step at a time, but do the first step.

So when I say "fight", I don't mean to go against a bunch of nationalists in such a coutry as posted above.
I am talking to gays who are hiding from their family and friends. Those gays can make a big difference. And they should.
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Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #448 on: June 15, 2007, 12:53:19 PM »
Well, I just got two surprises today.

The first was pleasant.  I opened up my email to find out that for the first time ever, my company (which extends medical coverage to same sex partners of their employees) will be walking in the Pride March in NYC.    I'm looking into joining the march with them.  Not only would it be my first time in the parade, it would be my first time AT the parade.


However, this was just rained on, when one of my co-workers came up and asked if I receieved the email about "the homosexual parade" in NYC.  When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.



 >:(

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: is society really as accepting as it claims?
« Reply #449 on: June 15, 2007, 01:33:22 PM »
However, this was just rained on, when one of my co-workers came up and asked if I receieved the email about "the homosexual parade" in NYC.  When I said yes, he bascially said that the company had no right to make moral decisions or stands like that, and he was surprised they would run the risk of "alienating" their straight employees.

 >:(

How backward, Chuck.  Given the quote from the Baptist lady in Massachusetts about gay marriage it's clear that it will only alienate certain straight employees.  The same kind who would want unmarried women who get pregnant at work fired.  Consider the source - and remember you can't alienate someone who's already an alien.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper