Gay History -- How We Got Here

[lislis]

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-58493076
^^^
"I'm happy, I'm carefree, and I'm gay, I was born this way"


(played over the end credits in Another Gay Movie, I finally found and bought that version on Amazon a few years ago)

[CellarDweller115]

I don't ever remember hearing this song before.   It's good to hear it now, and I hope when it was released, it helped many people.

[lislis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AefLEID1xmY

I like this version, it's the one I bought from Amazon.

[CellarDweller115]

Ah, a cover by Jimmy Sommerville.  Nice!

[frokes]

So I wonder if this question is fitting for this topic. I have a research question about LGBT folks before 1990. Is there any significant literature (non-fiction and fiction) about the meeting places that LGBT folks had until then - and how LGBT people met if they did not use these meeting places?

In particular I am thinking of those who were not out but had relationships with someone who were not part of their close circle. They must have met somehow but it seems to me that the process would be more complicated at that time due to the fact that World-Wide-Web did not exist until 1989 when Tim Berners-Lee invented it.

Sorry for rambling on! Honestly I am just looking for something to ease my process with doing research for a project. My Google searches are giving me some hints here and there but it is a bit frustrating too. 

[michaelflanagansf]

Hi Frokes,

I used to post here a lot, and I write about gay history for the Bay Area Reporter, so I thought I'd take on your question.

First, I have to ask "how far back?" because there is a lot of history on this - also "where?"

However, one of my favorites on this topic is "Strangers" by Graham Robb. He's a British author and he's writing about the 19th Century here, so long before the notion of "gay" (as in liberation). He includes a lot about Europe here:

https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/graham-robb/strangers/9780330482240

Here is another book which is pretty much considered a standard reference on this topic is "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture and the making of the Gay Male World, 1890 - 1940" - it's New York Centric, however:

https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/george-chauncey/gay-new-york/9780786723355/

This is one of my favorite books - it's about someone who was a real pioneer in gay male culture:

https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374533021

This is a fascinating book - it talks about how hobby magazines were used in the 1950s for contacts:

https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo3635969.html

This is a classic novel which is based on the author's experience on hustling in the early 60s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Night

As I said, it may be important to put limits on this, because we can even go back to 15th century Florence:

https://bookshop.org/books/forbidden-friendships-homosexuality-and-male-culture-in-renaissance-florence/9780195122923

Robert Beachy's "Gay Berlin: Birthplace of a Modern Identity" is a good book for the early 20th century in Berlin:

https://mjhnyc.org/blog/gay-berlin-birthplace-of-a-modern-identity/

I'll stop there. Let me know if you need a specific area time wise or location wise.

Oh, and one more thing: you could do worse than to search ebar.com for my columns:

https://www.ebar.com/bartab/barchive/300492

Cheers!

Michael

[frokes]

Hi michaelflanagansf,

Wow! Thank you so much for sharing all of that information with me! I really appreciate your help!

I am looking for something to fill in the details of a LGBT scene in a city between 1940 and 1990 I think.

I was encouraged to send an e-mail to an archive about LGBT topics where I live (Norway). So earlier today I sent an e-mail to the archive.

I do identify as LGBT myself but my google searches had not led to much yesterday and I was hoping to find something about 1) the LGBT meeting places during the time period that I mentioned. I imagine that for some people there must have been a difficult balancing act between being part of the scene and distancing from it to avoid attention.
And 2) did it happen that LGBT people of different genders would enter a marriage with each other to avoid exposing their true sexual orientations to people they were not out to.
That second part of what I am wondering is not so easy to put into a simple string of search words. Maybe I am completely wrong to think that this was something that happened back then. But I guess, with my background where one side of my family is very conservative I always wondered what it would be like if someone in my family happened to identify as LGBT and everyone expected them to enter a heterosexual marriage, have children and so on. Even when I came out (later than 1990) it was very taboo in (the one side of) my family and it took a lot of willpower to defend myself based on the fact that I am never going to be straight.

[michaelflanagansf]

Hi Frokes,

Well, I don't know a lot about Norway during that period, but I would check here if I were looking:

"Criminally queer: homosexuality and criminal law in Scandinavia 1842–1999" by Rydström, Jens and Mustola, Kati:

https://library.oapen.org/handle/20.500.12657/34830

If you can find biographical information about Gunvor Hofmo's life that might help (I don't search in Norwegian, so I'm afraid I'm not much help there). Here's a biography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunvor_Hofmo

Also if you can find the biography of Nils Johan Ringdal (in ”Lystens død?”) that would help:

https://reviews-and-ramblings.dreamwidth.org/2943681.html

I would also contact the National Norwegian Archive for Queer History to see if they have the biographies of any people who were married from the period you are interested in:

https://skeivtarkiv.no/en

Here's an article on the archive:

https://partner.sciencenorway.no/forskningno-gender-and-society-homosexuality/hidden-stories-in-the-new-norwegian-queer-archive/1419073

Centre for Gender Research might be a good place to contact as well:

https://www.stk.uio.no/english/research/pride/lgbt-activism.html

Best,

Michael

[frokes]

Hi Michael,

That is amazing! Thank you so much! I very much look forward to start reading all of this information  

[fritzkep]

A master librarian indeed.

[michaelflanagansf]

A master librarian indeed.

Thanks Fritz! 

[michaelflanagansf]

Hi Michael,

That is amazing! Thank you so much! I very much look forward to start reading all of this information

Glad to help! Good luck with the project!

[frokes]

Glad to help! Good luck with the project!

Thank you! I feel certain that it is going to be easier to start on the project now that I have all of this information available.

[Lyle (Mooska)]

[...]
I am looking for something to fill in the details of a LGBT scene in a city between 1940 and 1990 I think.
[...]
I do identify as LGBT myself but my google searches had not led to much yesterday and I was hoping to find something about 1) the LGBT meeting places during the time period that I mentioned. I imagine that for some people there must have been a difficult balancing act between being part of the scene and distancing from it to avoid attention.
And 2) did it happen that LGBT people of different genders would enter a marriage with each other to avoid exposing their true sexual orientations to people they were not out to.

Of course, my references are all U.S. centric...  1940-1990 is a rather large span of time where things could be much different from one end to the other.

In terms of gay people finding each other, the Allan Berube book COMING OUT UNDER FIRE shows how gay people came to find each other, either enlisting or being drafted into WWII. And then how the military dealt with them. There's also a documentary on this subject, same title, by Arthur Dong. (Same title.) From reading that book it became clear that there was not a general consensus or experience for these people, depending on the situations and locations they were. Some had really harsh experiences and others varying amounts of freedom.

As for "LGBT people of different genders entering a marriage with each other to avoid exposing their true sexual orientations"...  In the 1970's I met a gay guy who had been in the air force and the air force was investigating a female enlistee who was thought to maybe be lesbian (she was) and he married her. And, I suppose since marrying a man was never thought to be a possibility for him, they remained married and in various stages of contact over the years. The investigation stopped after they were married.

...for what it's worth.

[Lyle (Mooska)]

Here is another book which is pretty much considered a standard reference on this topic is "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture and the making of the Gay Male World, 1890 - 1940" - it's New York Centric, however:
https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/george-chauncey/gay-new-york/9780786723355/

I like this book. I met George Chauncey once, I think in the Different Light bookstore one time.

This is a classic novel which is based on the author's experience on hustling in the early 60s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Night

I have a hard time with Rechy. I don't think he's particularly truthful about a lot of things.

See, for example:

We Need to Talk About Cooper Do-Nuts
https://bunkerhilllosangeles.com/2021/06/15/we-need-to-talk-about-cooper-do-nuts/
It's a fascinating read. (Click on the links in the article, they bring up great photos and other info.)

This Cooper Do-Nuts story keeps being inserted into various LGBT documentaries lately (including Hulu's recent series) and I found out it's going to be again:

Once Upon a Time in Los Angeles - Film Documentary Looks at Queer History
Gregorio Davila’s ’L.A. A Queer History’ through interviews, archival footage, and photographs weaves a tapestry of LGBTQ life in Los Angeles
 https://www.losangelesblade.com/2021/09/18/once-upon-a-time-in-los-angeles-film-documentary-looks-at-queer-history

It debuted at the Palm Springs LGBTQ Film Festival a couple weeks ago. I saw a very rough cut of this documentary in West Hollywood nearly two years ago during Pride Month activities and it was partly an attempt to raise money to keep working on and complete this project. It was in very rough form, but I found it interesting. I do not know what this finished version of it is like, but at the link there's a trailer for it and there's a Cooper Donuts reference (a photo) in it.

My opinion about things to do with gay history like that is: KNOW THE TRUTH. We don't want others making up history, so we should not be doing it, either!