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Poll

What period of gay history would you like to discuss first?

The fifties and sixties - before Stonewall
9 (50%)
Early Gay Liberation 1969 - 1975
2 (11.1%)
Political awakening 1975 - 1981
0 (0%)
The onset of AIDS 1981 - 1996
6 (33.3%)
Post Protease Inhibitors 1996 - Present
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: February 24, 2007, 01:59:08 AM

Author Topic: Gay History -- How We Got Here  (Read 518267 times)

Offline desertrat

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #270 on: March 28, 2007, 05:00:37 AM »
From my own experiences, I’ve found that a majority of people believe that only Jewish people were in Hitler’s death camps.

When I got my first tattoo, it was two Celtic Knots, with a pink triangle between them.  Whenever anyone sees it, they ask what the triangle is, and I give an explanation.  When they ask  why I would have something so negative on my arm, I tell them that I put it there so when I’m having a bad day, I can look at it, and remember that there were many who came before me, who had it much worse.


wow, chuck, that is actually a wonderful idea of giving something sad and negative a beautifully optimistic touch.

over here, people are a bit more "educated" about the concentration camps, simply because they were everywhere around. most people you'll ask will know about jews, gypsies, communists, catholics, enemies of the regime and handicapped people. but very rarely people will mention homosexuals. there really seems some kind of unspoken taboo over it.
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Offline Nax

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #271 on: March 28, 2007, 06:44:18 AM »
From my own experiences, I’ve found that a majority of people believe that only Jewish people were in Hitler’s death camps.

When I got my first tattoo, it was two Celtic Knots, with a pink triangle between them.  Whenever anyone sees it, they ask what the triangle is, and I give an explanation.  When they ask  why I would have something so negative on my arm, I tell them that I put it there so when I’m having a bad day, I can look at it, and remember that there were many who came before me, who had it much worse.


wow, chuck, that is actually a wonderful idea of giving something sad and negative a beautifully optimistic touch.

over here, people are a bit more "educated" about the concentration camps, simply because they were everywhere around. most people you'll ask will know about jews, gypsies, communists, catholics, enemies of the regime and handicapped people. but very rarely people will mention homosexuals. there really seems some kind of unspoken taboo over it.
I found something similar when I went to Auschwitz last year, although there was amention of homosexuals, I think it was very underplayed, having said that I was not dissapointed with what they have done there as a memorial in general.  I took my own spray of pink wooden roses.

Offline Jack too

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here: Some Brisbane snippets
« Reply #272 on: March 28, 2007, 12:22:57 PM »

Last Thursday (8-March-2007), the GLBTI choir sang at the local council library at New Farm.  Again, another battle won.  The lesbian community in the suburb of West End had a collection of books which they managed as a private lending library, but wanted someone else to take over the management of these books.  When they approached the local library, they were told, "There are no lesbians in West End!" (or words to that effect).  So, through persistence and perseverance, those championing our cause approached the New Farm library, and now the books have a permanent home.  Not only that, but Gary Dunne from Sydney, a GLBTI publisher donated out-of-print books on Australian GLBTI fiction and writings to augment the collection significantly.  So, the choir sang to mark the opening of this new selection; our books are now also available to the wider community.  They even had book readings from some young gay writers.  If you want a taste of Australian gay literature (free!), see http://www.gay-ebooks.com.au.  Contains some great reading and even recipes.

Our battles are far from over, but we shall overcome!!

1970 Australia

As we are to begin the discussion of the Stonewall events and the years following today, I think, this comment apropos the above quote is timely.

In April 1970 a private citizen, Dennis Altmann, successfully challenged a ministerial decision to ban a book - the American novel Totem Pole by Sandford Friedman, which tells of a man's gradual acceptance of his homosexuality. It was the first such legal challenge to succeed in Australia.

I knew Sandford Friedman.  He was a very fine writer, and in the late 80's and early 90's he conducted a writer's workshop for gay men and lesbians at the New York City Community Center under the auspices of SAGE (Seniors in a Gay Environment.)  His book Totem Pole is currently out of print, I believe, which is quite regrettable.  As literature it is a well-written novel, and stands as a fictional monument of high quality to our past history.  I would encourage you to look for it on used books sites to enjoy for yourselves, and perhaps to donate to a community library or center.

Jack
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here: Some Brisbane snippets
« Reply #273 on: March 28, 2007, 02:01:08 PM »
I knew Sandford Friedman.  He was a very fine writer, and in the late 80's and early 90's he conducted a writer's workshop for gay men and lesbians at the New York City Community Center under the auspices of SAGE (Seniors in a Gay Environment.)  His book Totem Pole is currently out of print, I believe, which is quite regrettable.  As literature it is a well-written novel, and stands as a fictional monument of high quality to our past history.  I would encourage you to look for it on used books sites to enjoy for yourselves, and perhaps to donate to a community library or center.

Jack

As a librarian I have to say this is a wonderful, wonderful thought, Jack!
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #274 on: March 28, 2007, 02:11:34 PM »
When I got my first tattoo, it was two Celtic Knots, with a pink triangle between them.  Whenever anyone sees it, they ask what the triangle is, and I give an explanation.  When they ask  why I would have something so negative on my arm, I tell them that I put it there so when I’m having a bad day, I can look at it, and remember that there were many who came before me, who had it much worse.

I have a pink triangle in the center of a biohazard symbol on my right arm.  It comes from a particularly horrid time in my life where I was going into the hospital rooms of friends when others were shunning them.  It's my own way of saying 'never forget'.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #275 on: March 28, 2007, 02:17:50 PM »
Racial Mixing

I noticed in reading back through past entries that people have wondered about racial integration of bars in the past.


Thanks for this Jack.  I was wondering about it, because as a former resident of Michigan I noticed how segregated our bars were there.  Black people (and women of any race) would get carded at the door - asked for 3 pieced of picture I.D. (I used to go out with a friend who would be subjected to this nonsense in the 70s).

We just recently had an incident in San Francisco where a bar (Badlands) was picketed for incidents like this.  The owner was also the owner of the only predominantly African-American bar in the Castro (The Pendulum)  - he closed down that bar and has reopened it under a different name.  Thankfully the new bar has very few patrons.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #276 on: March 28, 2007, 02:24:02 PM »
As I understand it, accusations of heresy were always accompanied by accusations of sodomy, whether or not the accused actually indulged in any sexual behaviour in the case of religious who were supposed to be celibate or nonprocreative, missionary postion sex through a hole in the nightgown in the case of lay people. It was a bit like the confaltion of Communism with homosexuality during the Mc Carthy period.

Exactly right Tony - if you were accused of heresy (or later witchcraft) the charge of sodomy was tagged on.  In the case of the witches it was often due to other mythology like the supposed 'osculum infame':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osculum_infame

In working on this history and mentioning Sir Roger Casement I wonder how much these charges were just made to shame those accused - and so that their friends would want to disassociate themselves from them, making it easier for the church and the state to prosecute them (and often take whatever wealth they had).
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #277 on: March 28, 2007, 02:28:53 PM »
Just a a few quick notes to readers here - I will be posting questions for the next period of history later in the day.  These are just there to prompt memories - you should not feel you have to follow them (that is, if you have other memories from this period that I don't cover please feel free to post them). 

Also, if you have comments or posts about the earlier period of history, please also feel free to continue to post them.  I look at this as being a cumulative history - we're moving forward, but some things we talk about in the 70s may trigger memories of earlier events, etc.

Finally, I'm probably not going to get the questions up for a little while today as I had an awful migraine yesterday and am still getting over it.  Sorry!
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline tfferg

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #278 on: March 28, 2007, 07:30:07 PM »
Michael, do relax and take good care of yourself. I'm sure nobody will mind if you don't post the next set of questions for a day or two.

Offline tfferg

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #279 on: March 28, 2007, 07:36:59 PM »
As I understand it, accusations of heresy were always accompanied by accusations of sodomy, whether or not the accused actually indulged in any sexual behaviour in the case of religious who were supposed to be celibate or nonprocreative, missionary postion sex through a hole in the nightgown in the case of lay people. It was a bit like the confaltion of Communism with homosexuality during the Mc Carthy period.

Exactly right Tony - if you were accused of heresy (or later witchcraft) the charge of sodomy was tagged on.  In the case of the witches it was often due to other mythology like the supposed 'osculum infame':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osculum_infame

In working on this history and mentioning Sir Roger Casement I wonder how much these charges were just made to shame those accused - and so that their friends would want to disassociate themselves from them, making it easier for the church and the state to prosecute them (and often take whatever wealth they had).

Interesting that people accuse of terrorism and Gitmo enemy combatants don't seem to have been accused of sodomy.

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #280 on: March 28, 2007, 10:27:47 PM »
Here are some questions for you to consider for the period from June 28, 1969 to the end of 1975.  Again, these questions are for those inside and outside the U.S. and all genders and orientations.  Please feel free to change the questions as you like, however:

1.)  Did Stonewall or its aftermath have any impact on your awareness of homosexuality?  If yes, how did you find out about it?  If no, what made you aware of gay people at this time?

2.)  Did the burgeoning gay liberation movement get discussed in your family or school?

3.)  If you were aware of being gay - or had friends or co-workers you thought were gay, did the gay liberation movement facilitate or inhibit conversation?

4.)  Do you remember the early feminist movement?  Did you have opinions about it regarding lesbianism? 

5.)  Did either the gay liberation movement or the feminist movement affect your reading at this time?  If so, what did you read?

6.)  Do you remember if homosexuality was discussed in your church at this time?

7.)  If you're gay or lesbian were you 'out of the closet'?  Did you act on your knowledge?  Did you go to bars or baths or political or social activities?  What were they like?  If you are not gay or lesbian did you have friends come out to you before this period and how did you handle that knowledge?

8.)  For those in the U.S. - do you remember when the American Psychological Association removed homosexuality from its list of illnesses?  Did this have any affect on your life or your behavior?  If you are outside of the U.S. did this decision get covered in the press and was there an impact there?

9.)  If you're in the U.K. or Canada do you remember when homosexuality was made legal?  What was the impact?  If you are outside of these countries were you aware of these changes and did they have an impact on your country?

10.)  If you were in the armed forces (or knew people who were in the armed forces) was there an impact of the gay liberation movement?  Were people more frightened?  Did you know of people who were discharged or questioned because of homosexuality?  Did you know of people who used the excuse of gayness to get out of the armed forces? 

11.)  If you were in the U.S. was there a change in the bars you went to after Stonewall?  If you are outside of the U.S. did Stonewall have an effect on the openness of gay life in your country?

12.)  In countries where homosexuality was legal do you remember what the reaction to Stonewall was?  Were people in your country baffled by the problems in the U.S.?  If you are from the U.S. did you visit any countries where homosexuality was legal - and what was you opinion of those countries?  Was there a cordial relationship between gay people and straight people or were gay people merely tolerated?

13.)  How soon after Stonewall Were you aware of gay organizations for openly gay/lesbian people?   

14.)  Were you aware of the reaction to law enforcement to gay people in your area?  Were their parks or restrooms in public areas that were patrolled?  Were there cases of people being arrested for gay sex in your area that you were aware of?

15.)  Were you aware of publications relating to gay people?  If so, what were they?  Were they national or local publications? 

16.)  Did you know any gay or lesbian people where you were growing up?  Were they really known to be gay, or were there rumors?  Did Stonewall and/or the gay liberation movement affect local attitudes toward them?  Did you meet any openly gay people during this period and what was your interaction with them like (i.e., do you still have friends from this period)?

17.)  Did you read any books (either fiction or non-fiction) dealing with lesbians or gay people in this period?  If so, were you open about reading them?  Do you remember anyone you know reading books about gay people?  Do you know if books about (or by) gay people were available in your area - either in bookstores or in libraries?

18.)  Do you remember seeing any plays concerning homosexuality in this period (for example 'The Boys In the Band')?  What did you think of them?  There were plays (like 'Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf') that were rumored to be about gay people, with straight characters substituted for the gay characters.  Did you see any of these plays - or did you know people who did?  Do recall talking about these plays?

19.)  There was a mini boom of films about homosexuality in this period ('Myra Breckenridge', 'The Boys In The Band', 'Gay Deceivers', 'Something for Everyone', 'Pink Flamingos', 'Sunday Bloody Sunday', 'The Damned', 'Death in Venice', etc.).  Do you remember seeing any of these movies (or other movies that addressed homosexuality) in this period?  What was your reaction?  Do you remember the reactions of other people or if you read reviews of the films?

20.)  If you were in an area where there was a college do you know if there were any gay organizations?  Did you know anyone who went to meetings of these organizations (or did you go)?  Were people afraid to attend these meetings?  Did you hear people discuss these groups?

21.)  Do you remember any gay related political events (like marches, zaps, etc.) in your area?  If so, what do you remember about them?  Were they covered in the press?

22.)  Do you remember the reaction of the non-gay press to Stonewall and events after it?  Do you remember the coverage of the A.P.A. removal of homosexuality as an illness in the press? 

23.)  Were there political candidates that addressed gay or lesbian issues in your area?  What did they say?  Was there a political reaction to gay events in your area?

24.)  Was there any sort of feminist activity in your area?  Were the people involved stigmatized as lesbians?  Did you go to any of these events?  Was there coverage in the press?

Again, if there are any topics you'd like to cover that I haven't mentioned please feel free - and if you just want to share memories without following these questions please do that as well.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline jack

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #281 on: March 29, 2007, 12:19:59 AM »
can i send the answers in under separate cover with margin notes for the editor and publisher  ???  ;D  ;)
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #282 on: March 29, 2007, 01:01:50 AM »
can i send the answers in under separate cover with margin notes for the editor and publisher  ???  ;D  ;)

Yep.  You can also answer them one at a time.  ;) :D

I get used to doing big batches of the questions for the book club.  Once I get going it's kind of hard to stop. ;D
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #283 on: March 29, 2007, 01:58:34 AM »
For example, Jack:

24.)  Was there any sort of feminist activity in your area?  Were the people involved stigmatized as lesbians?  Did you go to any of these events?  Was there coverage in the press?

When I was at college (in 1972) there was a ballot initiative to make abortion legal.  I worked on the campaign and went to a rally in Ann Arbor.  Gloria Steinem, Flo Kennedy and Bella Abzug were there - but I don't recall any mentions of lesbianism in the campaign.

As a side story I was postering on the campus I was at (near Bay City) and this guy associated with Campus Crusade for Christ kept ripping down my posters.  It got rather heated.  A few years later I ran into him at a gay bar in Lansing (and I was nasty - I asked him why god was concerned with women's reproduction but thought it was okay for him to be in a gay bar).
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #284 on: March 29, 2007, 03:11:13 AM »
15.)  Were you aware of publications relating to gay people?  If so, what were they?  Were they national or local publications?

The first gay publication I knew of was the 'Gay Liberator' a publication from Detroit (in in newspaper format).  I think I must have picked it up in my last year of High School - because when I went to college in the fall of 1972 I put up a poster from the magazine on the door of my dorm bathroom - a picture of Queen Victoria with the line 'Even A Queen Can Get The Clap' under her.  It stayed up on the door for a while too!

[My dorm suite mates were probably a little too scared of me to take it down at first.  Then they decided it was cool to have it on the door.]
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper