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Poll

What period of gay history would you like to discuss first?

The fifties and sixties - before Stonewall
9 (50%)
Early Gay Liberation 1969 - 1975
2 (11.1%)
Political awakening 1975 - 1981
0 (0%)
The onset of AIDS 1981 - 1996
6 (33.3%)
Post Protease Inhibitors 1996 - Present
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: February 24, 2007, 01:59:08 AM

Author Topic: Gay History -- How We Got Here  (Read 520878 times)

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #330 on: April 01, 2007, 06:33:13 PM »
The worst instance involved my father, who was a supervisor at the my company, and he refused to interview one of my friends for a job opening in his department because he said he didn’t want a gay man working for him.  I couldn’t do anything in that case.  On another occasion, I was going out to eat with a gay male friend and my father wanted to meet him and said to him, “We understand that you’re – a homosexual.”  That was my fault because I’d given them the impression that this friend and I were discussing getting an apartment together – we had discussed it, but not too seriously, and it had been my idea.  I was under 21 and my parents put their foot down, then said, “Well, go have a nice dinner.”  Sure.  After the evening had been ruined.  I felt so bad for my friend, it was so embarrassing for him to be treated that way.

Later on, in 1974, BTW, I did get an apartment with a different gay male friend and a straight female, plus myself – a three-bedroom floor of a house, actually.  But I was older then and my parents couldn’t really object. 

Oddly enough I had one of my female friends embarrass me during this time as well.  He didn't know I was in his house and came dancing through the living room in long john saying 'look at me, I'm Flanagan, I'm Flanagan'.  I couldn't really say anything.

I lived with several straight friends after coming out.  In 1973 I lived in a house with all straight men who knew I was gay - only one had a problem with it - but he was pretty much a grouch with everyone.

In 1974 I moved in with a gay friend in Lansing.  That lasted for a few years till he got too insulting (he was very bitchy and demeaning), at which point I moved out into a house with two hippies who were associated with Stephen Gaskin and the Farm - who was anti-gay at the time (he thought we weren't associated with 'life energy').
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #331 on: April 01, 2007, 06:51:49 PM »
A very important book for me in the early 70s was Karla Jay & Allen Young's book 'Out of the Closets: Voices of Gay Liberation'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Jay

http://andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/bioj1/jay1.html

http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?pid=0814741835&ad=FGLBKS
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #332 on: April 01, 2007, 07:08:09 PM »
Here's a little story about 'Boys in the Band' and 'Myra Breckenridge'.  When I was in High School I went to see 'Boys in the Band' - the year it was released (1970).  I was in love with a straight boy at the time and the film made me very, very depressed.  I kind of felt it was giving me an idea of what I had to look forward to.

Fortunately for me 'Myra Breckenridge' was released at about the same time.  I saw it a week after seeing 'Boys in the Band' and decided that that was going to be how my future would be, not like 'Boys in the Band'.  If Myra could make it, so could I!
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline maidenofthesea

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #333 on: April 01, 2007, 09:16:47 PM »
Michael I just had to chime in and say you are a wonderful, constant source of knowledge about this topic and your links and insight is very much appreciated by me. I saved a lot of your info and links to my computer to help me with the various writings. So thanks again.


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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #334 on: April 01, 2007, 10:58:01 PM »
Michael I just had to chime in and say you are a wonderful, constant source of knowledge about this topic and your links and insight is very much appreciated by me. I saved a lot of your info and links to my computer to help me with the various writings. So thanks again.

Thank you and you bet!  It's a labor of love! 
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #335 on: April 02, 2007, 10:57:56 AM »
One reflection of my sexuality during the period from 1969-1975 were people that I saw on television.  Gore Vidal, Truman Capote and Tennessee Williams appeared on both Johnny Carson and Dick Cavett  then (does anyone else have any other people that they remembered in particular).  Dates follow:

Gore Vidal on Carson:

May 4, 1970
Sept. 30, 1970
April 18, 1972

Gore Vidal on Dick Cavett:

March 4, 1968
unknown date 1971 - with Janet Flanner and Norman Mailer (on which Cavett told Mailer to fold it five ways)

Truman Capote on Dick Cavett

May 25, 1971
Dec 18, 1970
Nov 26, 1970

There was also an incident at the Democratic national convention in 1968 where Gore Vidal referred to William F. Buckley as a crypto-Nazi and Buckley called Vidal a queer and threatened to punch him.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Jack too

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #336 on: April 02, 2007, 11:41:29 AM »
Plays about gay people

18.)   Do you remember seeing any plays concerning homosexuality in this period (for example 'The Boys In the Band')?  What did you think of them?....Did you see any of these plays - or did you know people who did?  Do recall talking about these plays?

I was living in NYC with my lover when Boys in the Band (the play) came out.  It generated a lot of comment with straights and gay people.  The straight press was ga-ga about it – it was so, so true-to-life, etc. etc.  A lot of guys my local bar had seen it and they were quoting the bitch queen camp lines from it.

I was, let's say, apprehensive about what it was I was going to see.  How could one trust the judgement of straights about what was "true" in gay life; on the other hand, those campy lines were viscious.

When I came out in the late Fifties one of the worst parts of it – in addition to realizing that I would be the victim of anti-gay hatred all my life – was to realize that there was a pervasive depressingly negative and nasty attitude in gay male life itself.  For me that attitude, more or less coequal to "camping" itself, sucked the air out of gay life.  I was repelled by its insistently bottomless negativity, misogyny and self-hatred.  For me it cast a blight over much of gay life at that time.

My lover/roommate and I went to see BITB early in '69.  All those often-quoted lines were there, but I laughed at them – with the same kind of embarrassed enjoyment that one usually feels about black humor.  But in the end I felt the play was a cheat.  I felt that it was reflecting the gay life of the late Fifties and early Sixties, and not that of the late Sixties.  I believe that I was probably wrong.  Though in a city like NYC, big and liberal, there was an opposite tone and emphasis arising in gay life, I have serious doubts about how widespread it was elsewhere. 

I was glad I'd seen the play, just to be able to say that I had, but I definitely felt dirtied by it.  To me it depicted a gay lifestyle that was passing away, but also one that was only part of what gay life had ever been like.  When I read that Mart Crowley had been deeply depressed while writing it, I could imagine why.  Over the years since then I have heard men say that the play or the movie had a very negative impact on how they felt about being gay.  Ultimately, I think Crowley failed to get beyond the vitriolic camp clearly enough, though he seemed to be attempting it, to leave a lasting impression of gay male decency and humanity – and the existence of good-natured, forgiving humor among gay men.

I experienced it as something like a homo Amos 'n' Andy.  Some people in the bar loved it, especially those people whose conduct in the bar was the same as that of the play's characters.  Other guys liked and disliked it to varying degrees with most, as I recall, feeling that it reflected badly on gay men to the straight world.  Well, Crowley wasn't, I suppose, attempting to write propaganda, so I couldn't really fault him on that score myself.   

It did serve as a strong reminder, however, that straights were most comfortable laughing at us, just as whites were truly most comfortable on the whole laughing at blacks.  It takes their fear out of our "otherness," but I didn't feel it was my duty to appear impotent or clownish for their comfort.

I didn't buy into the idea that Albee had turned a gay couple into a straight one for Virginia Woolf.  It certainly was not ridiculous to consider that possibility, but if you look at his earlier plays, this is not a man who had a history of pulling his punches about race or sexuality.  Based on that, and a conversation I once had with him around this time, I thought that he was dealing with the issues of the plot in a straightforward way and not masking them.

Fortunately NYC was soon producing other gay theater utilizing camp or eschewing it, and a musical such as Chorus Line presented gay characters to the world as better rounded and more easy to empathize with.

Jack
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 12:10:26 PM by nycnotkansas »
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Offline Jack too

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #337 on: April 02, 2007, 12:07:11 PM »
One reflection of my sexuality during the period from 1969-1975 were people that I saw on television.  Gore Vidal, Truman Capote and Tennessee Williams appeared on both Johnny Carson and Dick Cavett  then (does anyone else have any other people that they remembered in particular).

Michael, I've been waiting decades for the chance to use this, heh-heh.

Little Richard , the outrageous (and closeted) rock n roll singer of the Fifties appeared on the Dick Cavett show, many years
ago.  I do not know if he was out at this point, but a personal statement was hardly needed.  His remarks below were directed at two other guests, John Simon (well-known literary critic) and Erich Segal (univeristy prof and writer of trash romances). 

The use of all caps should make it clear that Lil Richard took over the show at this point like Sherman taking Atlanta:

"WHY, YES, IN THE WHOLE HISTORY OF AAAART!  THAT'S RIGHT!  SHUT UP!  SHUT UP!  WHAT DO YOU KNOW, MR. CRITIC?  WHY, WHEN THE CREEDENCE CLEARWATER PUT OUT WITH THEIR 'TRAVELIN' BAND' EVERYBODY SAY WHEEE-OOO BUT I KNOW IT CAUSE THEY ONLY DOING 'LONG TALL SALLY' JUST LIKE THE BEATLES ANDTHESTONESANDTOMJONESANDELVIS--I AM ALL OF IT, LITTLE RICHARD HIMSELF, VERY TRULY THE GREATEST, THE HANDSOMEST, AND NOW TO YOU (to Segal) AND TO YOU (to Simon), I HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK, MYSELF, I AM A WRITER, I HAVE WRITTEN A BOOK AND IT'S CALLED--'HE GOT WHAT HE WANTED BUT HE LOST WHAT HE HAD'!  THAT'S IT!  SHUT UP!  SHUT UP!  SHUT UP!  HE GOT WHAT HE WANTED BUT HE LOST WHAT HE HAD!  THE STORY OF MY LIFE.  CAN YOU DIG IT?  THAT'S MY BOY LITTLE RICHARD, SURE IS.  OO MAH SOUL!  WHEEEEE-OO!  OOO MAH SOUL!  OO mah soul!"

Keep Boys in the Band and let 'em have this!

Did you happen to catch the show, Michael?

It is quoted in Mystery Train by Greil Marcus

Jack
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 04:18:13 PM by nycnotkansas »
Never trust anything called "the movement."

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #338 on: April 02, 2007, 10:45:24 PM »
Did you happen to catch the show, Michael?

Oh My God!!!  Yes, I did see that show!  It was one of those experiences where you sat around for a while afterwards and thought 'did I really see that?'.

Of course the Cavett show often had surreal moments.  Here's some text from that show with Mailer and Vidal:

MAILER: “I would not hit anyone here, you’re all too small.”
CAVETT: “Smaller?”
MAILER: “Intellectually smaller.”
CAVETT: “Perhaps you’d like another chair to help contain your giant intellect.”
MAILER: I’ll accept the chair if you’ll accept fingerbowls.
CAVETT: Fingerbowls? Fingerbowls. I don’t get that. Does anyone on our team [Vidal and Janet Flanner] want that one?
MAILER: Think about it.
CAVETT: Fingerbowls.
MAILER: Why don’t you just read another question off your list, Cavett?
CAVETT: Why don’t you just fold it five ways and put it where the moon don’t shine?

And Capote told Johnny Carson that Jacqueline Susann looked like a 'truck driver in drag'.  And when pressed for an apology he apologized to truck drivers.

I really think that someone should do a compilation of clips like this to show exactly how gay television was in this era.  I think you'd need to include David Suskind as well.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #339 on: April 03, 2007, 10:38:49 AM »
Early homophile publications information and sales.

This site contains a listing of early homophile publications on sale with some pretty detailed background info as well as a listing of the table of contents of each issue available.  Even if you are not interested in purchasing - the information is worth saving if you are a gay history buff.

http://www.tyleralpern.com/one.html

Jack
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #340 on: April 05, 2007, 01:26:38 AM »
I wanted to talk a bit about some media events that happened during the early 70s.  There were some important movies that came out around this time.  JPQ mentioned Christopher Isherwood earlier - 'Cabaret' was released in 1972 - and it dealt with issues of homosexuality (and the repression of it by the Nazis).  I remember being intrigued by it and I read 'Christopher and His Kind' as a result when it came out (in 1976).

Another film that was released at around this time was 'A Very Natural Thing' (1974).  Although it received mixed reviews it was one of the first films that dealt with homosexual romance as a love story and not as a 'problem':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Very_Natural_Thing

'Song of the Loon' was released in 1970 - it was based on Richard Amory's book of the same name:

http://home.earthlink.net/~richardamory.com/index.html

Also around this time gay porn like Peter De Rome's films (Adam and Yves, etc.) and 'Boys in the Sand' were released:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boys_in_the_Sand

'The Front Runner' by Patricia Nell Warren was an important book from this period.  It was released in 1974 and was on the New York Times bestseller list.  Interestingly enough the book actually sold by word of mouth as much as by any other means as it was not heavily reviewed in book review sections of newspapers.  It was also of note because it was written by a woman and was written about gay men.  It's still a quite popular book and we have had a thread running at this forum about this book and the others in Ms. Warren's series here:

http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=12775.0




Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #341 on: April 05, 2007, 10:29:58 AM »
As I'm doing 'The Celluloid Closet' over in the book club thread I keep coming across things that cross-pollinate with this thread.  A participant over there just mentioned Divine's films, and it struck me that we haven't talked about them over here either.

'Pink Flamingos' (1972) and 'Female Trouble' (1974) [as well as the even more wild 'Multiple Maniacs' (1970) and 'The Diane Linkletter Story' (1970)] radicalized a whole bunch of people with humor.  And many of those people were straight.  Divine and John Waters glamorized a whole sensibility in the 70s that made most gay people seem like the folks next door by comparison.  The midnight movie phenomenon of the 70s had a way of moving a whole group of people ahead without any political discussion being necessary.

In a similar way 'Rocky Horror Picture Show' (1975) made a whole group of kids who probably wouldn't have shown up in gay bars ask 'why shouldn't I dress in drag?'.    I can remember going out to the Lansing Mall (which was definitely on the 'wrong' side of town for gay activity - it was near where the farmers came into town).

Does anyone here have similar experiences? 
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #342 on: April 05, 2007, 10:33:37 AM »
A quick questions readers - are we ready to move on to the next section?  It seems as if we have covered this period very quickly, if this is the case.  Does anyone else have anything they'd like to share - or does anyone have any questions about this period in our shared history?
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline dejavu

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #343 on: April 05, 2007, 01:45:28 PM »
A quick questions readers - are we ready to move on to the next section?  It seems as if we have covered this period very quickly, if this is the case.  Does anyone else have anything they'd like to share - or does anyone have any questions about this period in our shared history?

We need more participation on the current period.  Surely other people can have memories ...
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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #344 on: April 05, 2007, 03:21:24 PM »
Early 70's politics in NYC

21.)   Do you remember any gay related political events (like marches, zaps, etc.) in your area?  If so, what do you remember about them?  Were they covered in the press?

In New York Gay Liberation Front lasted only a short time and I don't believe that it got much mainstream press coverage.  They did, I believe, put out their own paper, but it was filled with grandiose and incendiary rhetoric that impressed no one.  The Gay Activist Alliance split off from GLF, and its zaps did get press coverage in the Times and the News.  But that coverage could vary from a mention of an interruption of an event at which Mayor Lindsay was speak at, or stand-alone story, such as the one about the action at Harper's magazine.  By the end of '72 GLF was long dead and GAA was folding.  Contrary to the impression that one sometimes gets from the attention that some books pay to these two organizations they had memberships of two hundred or less, I have read, and did not succeed in gaining widespread support. Part of this was due, I think, to a nationwide disenchantment with student groups, rioting, civil disturbances, etc.  Another reason was that NYC politics was seeing the extinction of the old Tammany Hall machine, the emergence of new and very liberal Reform Democrat politicians, plus the eclipse of the liberal wing of the Republican party.  City politics was hot, and it was ready for gay issues.

GAA's meeting place "the firehouse" was destroyed by fire in early '73, and that was the end of the last vestige of "activist" politicking for awhile.  The cause of the fire was arson, but it went unsolved.  Popular speculation pointed the finger at the Mafia.   

23.)  Were there political candidates that addressed gay or lesbian issues in your area?  What did they say?  Was there a political reaction to gay events in yourarea?

There was a gay rights bill before the City Council by '71, and it was supported by Mayor Lindsay.  When it failed, as it did for many years when it was reintroduced, Lindsay (and other mayors) used executive orders as best they could to introduce measures of gay equality.

Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisolm and Ed Koch were some of the new liberal Reform Dem faces.  They all made some pro-gay noises, and in Greenwich Village where at that time there was a concentration of gay people, gay men and women organized a gay Democratic club.  By the Nineties openly gay candidates were not only common (and winning), there were even conservative gay candidates who became councilmen.

Jack
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