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Poll

What period of gay history would you like to discuss first?

The fifties and sixties - before Stonewall
9 (50%)
Early Gay Liberation 1969 - 1975
2 (11.1%)
Political awakening 1975 - 1981
0 (0%)
The onset of AIDS 1981 - 1996
6 (33.3%)
Post Protease Inhibitors 1996 - Present
1 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: February 24, 2007, 01:59:08 AM

Author Topic: Gay History -- How We Got Here  (Read 520751 times)

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #375 on: April 12, 2007, 01:51:58 PM »
Nikki, Jack & Paul - thanks for your posts.  I don't know if  you all noticed the article I did in yesterday's 'Daily Sheet', but clearly someone noticed - we've had a couple of hundred more 'views' on this section in the last few days.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Nikki

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #376 on: April 12, 2007, 02:19:11 PM »
Nikki, Jack & Paul - thanks for your posts.  I don't know if  you all noticed the article I did in yesterday's 'Daily Sheet', but clearly someone noticed - we've had a couple of hundred more 'views' on this section in the last few days.

Yes Michael, I read your post in the TDS. One would expect this thread to attract a gay element, but for me, a straight female, I was at first hesitant 'cause I felt I had nothing to offer, or certainly no experience to recount. I began lurking earlier on the thread to gain more perspective and insight which I have done. I hope the few and far contributions I make are helpful. Perhaps, Michael, your post in yesterday's TDS brought in some more hesitant lurkers like me.

To all the gay posters here, I thank you for giving me more insight into the gay community, your history, and your experiences - good and bad.

Nikki
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #377 on: April 12, 2007, 02:33:55 PM »
Yes Michael, I read your post in the TDS. One would expect this thread to attract a gay element, but for me, a straight female, I was at first hesitant 'cause I felt I had nothing to offer, or certainly no experience to recount. I began lurking earlier on the thread to gain more perspective and insight which I have done. I hope the few and far contributions I make are helpful. Perhaps, Michael, your post in yesterday's TDS brought in some more hesitant lurkers like me.

To all the gay posters here, I thank you for giving me more insight into the gay community, your history, and your experiences - good and bad.

Nikki

Thanks for your contributions Nikki!  I certainly welcome all posters.  Having just had a longterm gay friend die I've been in touch with his niece, who lived with both of us.  I've known her through one pregnancy and two marriages and she knew me from Michigan to my move out here.  It's pretty clear to me that the people who are our friends, who read books about us, see movies about us, etc. are witnesses to our shared history as much as gay people.  Our perspectives may or may not vary, but it's a good thing, I think to broaden the base of contribution of our stories here.

If you get a chance to see 'The Times of Harvey Milk' I strongly suggest it.  It gives a really good idea of what I'm talking about.  There's an older straight guy, a dockworker, who talks about the impact Harvey's union work had.  There's woman that Harvey knew who recounts when he came to her door with flowers after she had a miscarriage.

We share a common history.  I welcome all posters to talk about that shared history.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Nikki

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #378 on: April 12, 2007, 03:25:07 PM »
Yes Michael, I read your post in the TDS. One would expect this thread to attract a gay element, but for me, a straight female, I was at first hesitant 'cause I felt I had nothing to offer, or certainly no experience to recount. I began lurking earlier on the thread to gain more perspective and insight which I have done. I hope the few and far contributions I make are helpful. Perhaps, Michael, your post in yesterday's TDS brought in some more hesitant lurkers like me.

To all the gay posters here, I thank you for giving me more insight into the gay community, your history, and your experiences - good and bad.

Nikki

Thanks for your contributions Nikki!  I certainly welcome all posters.  Having just had a longterm gay friend die I've been in touch with his niece, who lived with both of us.  I've known her through one pregnancy and two marriages and she knew me from Michigan to my move out here.  It's pretty clear to me that the people who are our friends, who read books about us, see movies about us, etc. are witnesses to our shared history as much as gay people.  Our perspectives may or may not vary, but it's a good thing, I think to broaden the base of contribution of our stories here.

If you get a chance to see 'The Times of Harvey Milk' I strongly suggest it.  It gives a really good idea of what I'm talking about.  There's an older straight guy, a dockworker, who talks about the impact Harvey's union work had.  There's woman that Harvey knew who recounts when he came to her door with flowers after she had a miscarriage.

We share a common history.  I welcome all posters to talk about that shared history.

Michael, my deepest sympathy to you on the occasion of your friend's death.

-----------------

I already  have 'The Life and Times of Harvey Milk' on my netflix list.
The shirts hanging on a nail shudder slightly in the draft.

If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong.

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive
But to be young was very heaven!

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #379 on: April 12, 2007, 05:00:27 PM »
I don't know if any of you are going to be in San Francisco between now and August, but there is an exhibition going on regarding an earlier part of history that you may be interested in - Enrico Banducci's hungry i exhibition at the San Francisco Performing Arts Library and Museum exhibition space:

http://www.sfpalm.org/exhibits/HUNGRY/Hungry.htm

Here is an article on the exhibition from the San Francisco Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/04/DDGLTP09FP1.DTL

And here is the wikipedia article on the hungry i:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungry_i

Although the hungry i was not a gay club, it was in North Beach at the same time as Mona’s, The Black Cat and Finocchio’s were there.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 05:10:15 PM by michaelflanagansf »
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #381 on: April 12, 2007, 05:30:53 PM »
For those of you who are interested in both books and history (as I am) here is the winner of the American Historical Association's Committee on Lesbian and Gay History's Boswell Prize, presented by the committee to the book they feel is the best on gay and lesbian history.  This year's winner is 'Contacts Desired: Gay and Lesbian Communications and Community 1940-1970s' by Martin Meeker from the University of Chicago Press:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/167324.ctl

http://www.amazon.com/Contacts-Desired-Communications-Community-1940s-1970s/dp/0226517349
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline jack

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #382 on: April 14, 2007, 04:48:02 PM »
in the midst of my current insanity, moving myself, moving my mother from new york the next month, and a very complicated and demanding sponsorship of an alcoholic/heroin addict hopefully into a lasting sobriety, glimpses in here have been a tonic, and those hippie photos are priceless.  i can't wait to show them to some of my (much) younger friends.  they have NO idea of what we were like back then.

such memories...
"through Seneca Falls, and Selma, and Stonewall..."

Offline Jack too

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #383 on: April 15, 2007, 02:31:12 PM »
Snake Pit Raid in NYC - March 8, 1970

The Snake Pit was an unlicensed premises that had dancing and sold booze into the early morning hours.  It was in a basement a few blocks from the Stonewall Inn.  It was a much smaller place, but had, I thought, a friendlier crowd and was considerably cleaner.  It was raided in the wee hours (eight months after the Stonewall raid) and all of the patrons were taken to the local station house.  One of them, an illegal immigrant named Diego Vinales, was terrified and threw himself from a window in a desperate effort to escape and was impaled on an iron fence below.  Part of the fence had to be cut away and taken to the hospital still piercing his body - I have read that it was five points of the fence.  He did survive

A protest march followed. 

The picture below appeared on the front page of the Daily News.  The picture has been shot from a window above or perhaps from the top of the ladder shown in the photo.  The photo may be confusing at first sight.  The fence upon which Vinales was impaled was part of a large sunken well that probably had basement windows opening onto it.  The policeman and the medic (?) are crouched on a platform that has been hurriedly made of parts of a police barricade, which was probably stored at the station and this allows them to be at the level of his body.  It appears as if someone may be holding his hand and supporting him from below.

Contrary to the low profile events of Stonewall, this achieved city-wide notoriety.

Jack   

« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 03:21:22 PM by nycnotkansas »
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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #384 on: April 15, 2007, 02:53:01 PM »
Thanks very much for the information on the Snake Pit, Jack.  I was wondering about that - I remembered Diego Vinales when I read his name.  In looking for him I came across this interesting post on Stonewall:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/ftp/bulgarians/stonewall.txt

There is an article on the Snake Pit further down in the post.
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #385 on: April 15, 2007, 05:52:31 PM »
Gay and Lesbian Elected Officials

The early 70s was the period where Gay and Lesbian candidates ran for office and won.  In 1961 José Saria was the first openly gay candidate who ran for office as City Supervisor under the the name 'Dowager Widow of the Emperor Norton, Empress of San Francisco and Protectress of Mexico.'  He didn't win, but he did get 6500 votes (we've always been a tad strange here).

Here's a video from the San Francisco GLBT Historical Collection concerning The Dowager Widow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5BvNDCH6Ok&feature=PlayList&p=FA14A22E93BEFDA1&index=60&playnext=1

The first open lesbian office holder in the U.S. was Nancy Wechsler (she came out in office in 1973)

http://www.wellesley.edu/womensreview/nw.html

Here is the party she was part of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Party

Here is an article on the background of Lesbian & Gay rights in Ann Arbor at the time:

http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1999/feb/02-12-99/news/news18.html

Jerry DeGrieck was the first gay man to come out in office (also on the Ann Arbor City Council) in 1973:

http://www.lgbtheritage.org/search.phtml?stype=people&value=51&heading=Jerry%20DeGrieck

Here is a post online that refers to a dissertation relatied to this:

Date:    Wed, 08 Apr 92 13:19 CDT
From: C60RBR1%NIU.BIT...@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: First Elected Lesbian

The lesbian who was first to be elected to public office in the
United States was Nancy Wechsler of the Ann Arbor Human Rights
Party in 1972. She and gay man Jerry Degrieck did not come out as
gay and lesbian until seven months after taking office.For anyone
who wants the full story, get hold of Anthony Ralph Smith's 1980
dissertation from the University of Illinois " College Town
Radicals: The Case of the Ann Arbor Human Rights Party-"they
have a copy they'll lend out.
     Any more questions? As keeper of the microfilm collection of
the Midwest gay press, there is a lot here aT Northern Illinois
University that we can draw on.
     Thanks for the article on the Pink Angels.

                                            Rob Ridinger

The first openly lesbian candidate elected to office in the United States was Kathy Kozachenko, who was elected to the Ann Arbor City Council in January 1974:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Kozachenko

http://www.lgbtheritage.org/event.phtml?events_id=98

The first openly lesbian candidate to win statewide office was Elaine Noble, who came out during her campaign in 1974 and won in November of that year:

http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/noble_e.html

http://andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/bion1/nobl1.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2002_Nov_12/ai_94598267

The first openly gay male state officeholder was Minnesota state senator Allan Spear who came out in 1974 - he was re-elected multiple times after coming out:

(The article about Allan Spear is further down in this citation):

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2000_July_4/ai_63059684

(quote from Allan Spear further down in this article on Minnesota gay pride):

http://citypages.com/databank/25/1229/article12233.asp

Spear discusses his politics here:

http://www.oberlinlgbt.org/into-the-pink/before-1970-4


Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

Offline Jack too

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #386 on: April 16, 2007, 07:45:30 AM »
In praise of gay bars

I first went to NYC in spring of 1959 on my Easter break from a college in upstate New York.  What I discovered (in Manhattan, at least) was a thriving, albeit harassed, gay male subculture.  The fact that there were just over twenty bars or bar & restaurants catering to gay men in Manhattan, plus some for lesbians made for a buzzing social life, though one that always had an ax over it.

I lived in NYC that summer, and returned to college in the fall.  At that point Lee Mortimer, a muck-raking columnist for the NY Daily Mirror, started an anti-gay bar crusade in his column.  A very nervous Mayor Wagner, having various political problems of his own, was not adverse to a widespread anti-gay campaign as part of cleaning up his image.  The result was the severest wave of oppression of gay subculture in NYC history.

When I arrived in the city after being graduated from college at the beginning of summer 1960 I found only two bars left open out of the more than two dozen from the previous year.  I then found another, but it closed down within one or two weeks.  The next six years saw gay bars come and go with the regularity of a revolving door.  The baths remained, risky meat rack cruising and tea rooms were still options – but even if you were willing to take the risks involved, these were not environments where you were likely to cultivate friendships, and certainly not ones in which you would probably develop a circle of friends and acquaintances.  For a new arrival, like myself, this was a genuine problem. There was no stable place to hang out and have the time to develop social relationships over a period of time. 

However, I will say that many of those virtually fly-by-night gay bars of these years had far more diverse crowds of patrons than the bars I had been introduced to in my college year in '59.  I suppose this was pretty much dictated by the fact that the heat was on so intensely that there were extremely few bars to go to; therefore, everyone pretty much had to go to the same places.  I've often thought in retrospect that this prolonged anti-gay bar campaign may have helped to break down some of the affectation and bitchiness that was part of the gay New York I was first introduced to in '59.  However, despite what seemed to me to be a wider variety of guys, there might be only one or two black guys in a bar, and a few Hispanics.  (My judgment of who might be Hispanic was off during my early years in the city as I often mistook Latinos to be Italians.)

Lee Mortimer – the gay-hating columnist - died, no tears shed there, and Mayor Wagner's career in office was coming to an end as the mid-Sixties approached.  The occasion of the World's Fair brought about the last burst of concerted anti-gay activity; then he was gone and Lindsay was the new mayor.

Mattachine held the sip-in early in 1966 in an effort to provoke a court battle that they hoped would lead to the rescinding of the State Liquor Authority regulation which denied accommodation in licensed bars to homosexuals and revoked the licenses of places that did so. The sip-in was a success.

The Mattachine Sip-in of 1966 probably had a more profound effect on the lives of gay men in NYC of any single event in the late Sixties.  With the State Liquor Authority retreating from its policy of prohibiting the serving of homosexuals after the Sip-in, and the subsequent finding of the courts that this policy was not constitutional, the legalization of gay bars had occurred.  Running a gay bar was no longer just a lucrative enterprise, it was a legal one.  This did not mean that all the criminal interests disappeared from the field, but it did mean that they were now running in competition with anyone who could raise the cash and pass the licensing requirements.

The gay population benefited in many ways - most immediately in that the number of gay establishments serving alcohol began increasing rapidly.  As I recall, the management and staffs were friendlier, the surroundings were cleaner, the booze was unwatered and if they smelled, it was usually from stale beer and not the stench of piss and shit from non-functioning plumbing.  Great as these things were, the long term effects were even more powerful.

Achieving public accommodation in a licensed bar was a major civil rights victory for gay people in NYC.  No longer was having a drink with your friends to risk public humiliation, harassment or arrest.  After almost seven years of police action against gay life in the city, a sense of safety and with it the promise of an ongoing public social life came to the gay men and lesbians of New York.  While gay bars certainly functioned as places to pick up a trick, in many this was balanced by the steady patronage of customers for whom the bar was also a neighborhood meeting place.

In 1967 there was one bar in the Upper West Side neighborhood, in the following decade there were eight.

Right after the Sip-in I had discovered a gay bar in my neighborhood, one not operated by the Mafia.  It was also, because of the character of the neighborhood, far more ethnically mixed than most gay bars farther downtown were.  Anywhere from a quarter to a third of the customers were Latinos and a lesser numbers of blacks.  Because of this place, called the Candlelight Lounge at that time, now just the Candle Bar, my social life became more stable and supportive.

I met the overwhelming majority of my friends in that bar or a couple of others in the neighborhood later, some on an individual basis and others because they were friends of people I had already met.  And these were the people - and the places - that provided support that ran a gamut from pleasant companionship to help in times of serious problems.  And my experience, I know, was shared by many others in the Seventies and Eighties. The bars also became information centers where you could find out what was going on around the city of gay interest – posters, handouts, bar rags all helped to create a connection to gay life around town, as did the grapevine.

In the Eighties bars collected money for AIDS organizations with collection cans, raffles, etc.  And news and information about the epidemic was shared there, and through sharing their suffering people were encouraged to join volunteer activities.  Gay bars were also used as drop-off points for free prepared meals made by God's Love We Deliver for home-bound PWA's.

While I found gay bars a source of sexual opportunity for many decades, what remains in my mind at age sixty-nine is what a rich source of friendship, good conversation and help and support these places were. 

Jack





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Offline fritzkep

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #387 on: April 18, 2007, 03:13:19 PM »
Michael, remembering the 101st anniversary of the earthquake.

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Offline michaelflanagansf

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #388 on: April 18, 2007, 03:41:24 PM »
Actually, Fritz, there is a Gay History connection to the quake.  It cleared out a lot of property in downtown San Francisco and, after the quake, a whole new 'Barbary Coast' rose out of the ashes.  And amongst the houses of ill repute was The Dash - the first known gay bar in San Francisco, which was shut down by the police for naughty business in 1908....
Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. - Karl R. Popper

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Re: Gay History -- How We Got Here
« Reply #389 on: April 18, 2007, 04:55:28 PM »
Michael, I was wondering, exactly where was the Barbary Coast? And was the location the same in the 19th century as well as after the earthquake?

I was wondering, because the Wikipedia article seems to indicate that it was not directly on the water, is this true?

« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 05:06:50 PM by fritzkep »
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