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Author Topic: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II  (Read 491615 times)

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3405 on: January 22, 2016, 05:49:44 PM »
Surely you remember the reference to them jouissancing a bed? ;)

Offline royandronnie

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3406 on: January 22, 2016, 07:22:59 PM »
Oh! I thought maybe it meant "juicing." From that deleted scene in which Jack tries to give Ennis a smoothie maker.
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Offline Sara B

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3407 on: January 23, 2016, 01:14:38 AM »
 :D

Mind you, 'jouncing' was a new word to me at the time. Though fairly easy to interpret.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3408 on: January 23, 2016, 03:14:52 PM »
AP does like her obscure words here and there, Sara  :D

Smoothies - yes, I could see that working, Char. We've certainly milked this story for all it's worth.  ;)

Offline Sara B

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3409 on: January 24, 2016, 12:24:16 AM »
All? You mean that's it? No more to say? ;D

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3410 on: January 24, 2016, 09:40:10 AM »
I love that word 'jouncing'. It follows well with the hot jolt...all about j-Jack. Kind of like Jacksterbator from my Xmas carol all those years ago....ah memories.

Offline Sara B

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3411 on: January 24, 2016, 11:12:15 AM »
A jolting bounce...

(What Christmas carol??)

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3412 on: March 27, 2016, 04:26:03 PM »
Better late than never. Way back in the glorious days of pcaps there were some splendid carols, etc. written for special occasions. In general, they could be summed up as funny, clever, and very naughty.

Offline Sara B

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3413 on: March 28, 2016, 02:00:55 AM »
I see. Thanks!  :D

Offline B.W.

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3414 on: May 26, 2016, 10:38:45 PM »
Oeuvres and bacon, yum!

Yes, I tend to avoid books with too scholarly an approach to BBM. Often the authors are hammering the story into their own favoured shape. FWIW.


Well, I think that most people have their own interpretation of "Brokeback Mountain", whether it is from reading the short story, seeing the theatrical film or watching the opera.  You know, I hope this isn't out of place, but recently I read some comments from an ex-Jehovah's Witness on an ex-JW blog, one man said that he still views homosexuality as being "wrong" and "unnatural" and won't associate with any LGBT ex-JWs or LGBT people who want to marry or adopt children.   There were other comments to another blog post on this same website dealing with the JWs and LGBT people,  the comments that I am referring to also looked down on LGBT people that choose to express their sexual orientation or gender identity.

One of these comments was from a repressed gay man who is a Bible Student, the fundamentalist Christian movement that the JW denomination emerged out of.  He once stated that he knew other gay people who chose not to act on their sexuality from a young age because they "knew it was wrong". This man stated that this is an "inspiring example of what it means to make a 'true sacrifice' for God". This is not an exact quote, but that is close to what he said. He said that he does not "approve" of same-sex marriage and that the JWs talking about their belief how the God of the Bible " made marriage only for monogamous heterosexual men and women is not a homophobic message". 

He claims that "disagreeing with homosexuality does not make one homophobic" and he blames the use of that word "homophobic" on liberals. He personally doesn't like being labelled as "homophobic", even though I happen to personally think that the word "homophobic" best describes his biased attitude towards sexually-active homosexuals. A heterosexual JW man insisted that LGBT believing that God does accept gay people because he created them that way is "wrong" and he basically said that "all true Christians know this".  He said that Yahweh "didn't create people to be gay".  He said that if Yahweh created people to be gay , then he wouldn't have  told Adam and Eve to be "fruitful and multiply the earth with other humans".  This man said that homosexuality is an "imperfection" in DNA, brought on when Adam and Eve "sinned" against Yahweh.  He said that LGBT people are "too proud of their homosexuality to admit these truths", and he said that when LGBT people who died before Armageddon are "resurrected", they will learn "the truth about God thinks of homosexuality".  He said that these LGBT people who are resurrected, "they will no longer be attracted to the same-sex", but that "Satan" would try to "tempt" them with homosexual desires after the 1,000-year reign of Jesus has ended and that the LGBT people who "succumb to the temptations of homosexuality will be destroyed for giving into these desires" once Jesus' 1000-year reign has ended.  These men made numerous other statements, but they all agreed that men who have sex with other men " will not inherit the Kingdom of God".

This type of attitude is why LGBT hide their sexual orientation or gender identity like Ennis and Jack.  People have the right to believe that homosexuality is "against the will of God" and that LGBT will suffer in "hell" for all of eternity or be "annihilated" by Yahweh's heavenly army of angels at Armageddon if they dare become part of a same-sex relationship or go through a sex change operation all they want ( a JW belief), but I think that people have the right to criticize and disagree with such religious beliefs as well.  The JWs can teach their children to defend the belief that homosexuality is a "sin", but children of LGBT parents also have the right to defend their own families and the belief that the only thing that matters is that people love each other, regardless of how certain religious groups view such relationships and/or families, even if those religious groups don't like it.

 The two referenced posts on that ex-JW blog were inspired by a video that the JWs did about same-sex families and how LGBT people who express their sexuality or gender identity "won't be able to live on God's earthly paradise unless they change and live their lives according to God's eternal and unchanging righteous standards".  I don't believe that LGBT people can or should "change", even if their sexual orientation or gender identity is a "choice", something that I don't believe.  Ennis and Jack were not allowed to live their lives the way that they wanted to.  I think that Ennis probably really did want to live the rest of his life with Jack more than anything else, but he wasn't able to confront the deep-seated hatred that he learned from his father, from society and that he taught to himself. Prejudice and biased is something that people should be able to question, whether it is learned from external sources or internally taught.  Prejudice and biases based in religion are something that should be questioned and scrutinized, though many claim that you are "disrespecting the deeply-held beliefs of others".




I respect people's right to believe whatever they want, but I don't have to respect their actual beliefs, including the religion-based beliefs that people hold about LGBT people that I talked about in this post.  I feel sorry for that gay male Bible Student whom I think is a hypocrite for condemning other LGBT people for choosing to act on their romantic or sexual impulses, especially when he is gay himself, but he has the right to live a life of celibacy and repression as required by his religious community if that is what he wants, but that doesn't mean that all other LGBT people on the planet should or have to choose to live their lives that way, just because he thinks that is what his deity wants them to do.  I am an ex-JW and I am glad that I never really bought into much of their beliefs and I am proud to support the civil rights of the LGBT community.

Offline B.W.

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3415 on: May 26, 2016, 11:07:38 PM »
I do think that Ennis probably did disagree with what he was taught about homosexuality in his own way without overtly acknowledging it, but I don't think that he would have become an open advocate for LGBT rights either for instance.  So many closeted LGBT people are like Ennis, it is just so heartbreaking.  By the way, what I should have mentioned in my previous post, LGBT people are excommunicated from and shunned by the JW denomination for being "unrepentant sinners who will die at Armageddon by God's army of angels from heaven and then they will remain dead for all of eternity" for choosing to date, marry or having sex with another consenting adult of the same gender or for undergoing a sex change operation.   I think that the Biblical author's views on Yahweh thinks of same-sex relationships are wrong.  I think that the authors of the Bible's views on homosexual relationships are simply wrong, just like I think their views on slavery, women and other issues are wrong.  Its funny when fundamentalist Christians claim that according to their literal interpretation of the Bible that same-sex couples "won't inherit God's kingdom", yet they claim that only Yahweh can judge who is worthy of "eternal life" or not. The sounds like contradiction to me.


I cannot fully blame Ennis for not wanting to attend the church social at the Methodist church that his wife and daughters attended because of the fire-and-brimstone members.  He probably had enough of hearing threats about eternal damnation, enough threats to last a lifetime that he may have lost all belief in the Methodist denomination's doctrines.  Jack was too much of a free spirit to be contained by the restrictive rules of fundamentalist religions if you ask me. This might be one thing that Ennis and Jack may have had in common, though neither man probably talked about their experiences with organized religion much, except in that scene in the film, the scene right before they have sex with each other the first time.


Offline royandronnie

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3416 on: May 30, 2016, 04:30:56 PM »
So we were talking about Ennis and Jack never going back to Brokeback. And it occurred to me for perhaps the first time, though I have a hard time believing nobody ever thought this before, that it's not just Ennis who resists trying to recapture the BB Summer. It was suggested that Ennis can't deal with/face the feelings he began to have up there, but Jack has just as big a reason to avoid it: it shows how little has changed since then, when everything seemed possible. Going back means NOT going forward, toward living together. Going back also means seeing if it's still magic, when maybe it isn't, certainly not in the later years. Since Ennis seems to set the parameters for the meetings, I think he's happy to re-create most of the aspects of the Summer--no people, way the hell up in the mountains, the primitive conditions. It doesn't seem threatening to him that this is very similar to BB. Maybe Jack also finds it non-threatening in a slightly different way: it's LIKE BB, but it's not on the sacred ground, so everything that's missing isn't quite as apparent. It's just a camping trip.
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Offline Sara B

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3417 on: May 31, 2016, 12:43:23 AM »
Yes, nice point, RandR.

How I WISH we saw a little more of the intermediate trips...

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3418 on: May 31, 2016, 01:57:15 PM »
Yes, I think Jack is a bit disparaging about Brokeback (Brokeback's all we got) which makes it all the more sad that he wanted his ashes scattered there - he knew they weren't going to get any further, maybe.  It reminds me that Jack's experience of Brokeback was different - that he spent the whole summer consciously hiding his feelings for Ennis (while Ennis unconsciously hid his!). 

Offline royandronnie

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #3419 on: June 01, 2016, 07:47:02 PM »
I think it's searingly simple why Jack wanted his ashes scattered there: it was the only place and time they were really together. For all its limitations, the BB summer was the zenith of the relationship, the DE, all of it. And Jack knew that. He wanted to move on, sure, but even as he disparaged BB, he felt--must have--something like the same "magic" that Ennis did. Something happened up there that would never have happened anywhere else, not between them, anyway, and I think his wish is with that in mind.
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

He either fears his fate too much
Or his deserts are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all