Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II

[Desecra]

Yes, it couldn't have happened anywhere else ... it's just so sad that what allowed the DE to happen was Ennis's denial, and Jack knew that.  There never seems to be an easy way to look at it. 

[Ministering angel]

Although Lureen doesn't directly say that Jack talked of Brokeback when he was drinking, there's an implication in what she says. It's easy to picture Jack four sheets to the wind and getting maudlin about the past and about the only place where he genuinely had hope of a rosy future. Whereas Ennis was wanting to hang onto his innocence, i.e. the denial which seems to have been utterly unconscious on the mountain compared to the thought-out denial of the reunion, Jack wants to hold onto the pure hope of the DE and those days of potential happiness. It's not the life he wants but it's the feelings which he needs to keep him going.

On a more practical level, Lureen's mention of Brokeback and the ashes is all part of the rapid reveal we get about Jack after he's remained an elusive character throughout the start of the story. We discover that for all his apparent ease, he's been slowly dying inside. It starts with his talk at the fire of missing Ennis, then there's the argument, then Lureen's conversation, then the parents' comments and finally the shirts. Ennis (and the reder) has to know the true nature of Jack's life, and what Brokeback meant to him, and how Ennis's rejection of his proposals (both at the reunion and after the divorce) have destroyed his life.

[CANSTANDIT]

Thinking about never going back tied to the question of Was the DE ever marred later?
That final description of the DE is telling: Ennis breaks Jack's  reverie by telling him it's time for bed-'and for Ennis to leave. All the rules getting followed. Then the grinding of hoof on stone-Ennis as unchangeable; and the snorting horse-a reminder thst things would continue as they had all summet with No lack of noises and never talking about it:   It seems to me there is a tacit realization by both, even if subconscious, that the house of cards would come tumbling down if they ever compared the then with the now.

[royandronnie]

I go back and forth, though I agree essentially with your masterful analysis, Jo. Nice symbolism--even though I don't really like symbolism!

I think there is a strong thread of truth in "nothing marred it." It was the shining memory, both all the potential and something real at the same time. Nothing COULD change the fact that it did happen: for a long moment they were one, and complete.

But it WAS marred: it was not the beginning of more, it was a culmination.

It was marred because, though perfect, it could never be reached again. In its way, because it did happen, it cast a cold shadow over the whole rest of the relationship, because it showed what was possible, what they both wanted, but that didn't happen.

[CANSTANDIT]

I agree.   It's a tricky component , that 'nothing marred it' comment.  But note also it is past tense and not just a narrator's past tense:  Jack looks back  in 1983 at it so the overt thought-maybe they'd not got much farther- is he's comparing then and now. But if we keep it pure he can in fact see it as a stand -alone because of the feeling it gave him- regardless of the missing component. So yeah torn too...maybe the occurrence was unmarred, but later,  Jack's comparative analysis does  damage to the hope due to what he now understands about Ennis?

Here's another thought bubbling up: in Jacks estimate and  leaving out the C & C operation, what does "much farther" mean?  Again I'm talking relationship as Jack appears to be- not talking living arrangements

[royandronnie]

Well, depending on how you feel about kissing, there's that; certainly Ennis will now embrace him face to face. Also, Ennis did admit to feelings in the motel. And Jack did prevail upon him to continue the relationship, rather than a punch and goodbye. So Ennis acknowledges attachment feelings and agrees to some kind of ongoing relationship in which he's willing to do something more than front-to-back quickies. But he's not willing to commit to a live-in relationship, even once he's divorced. And all the real progress in the relationship happens in that first visit in 1967.

Of course, we'll never know what might have happened if they had gotten together in November…

[Desecra]

Yes, I agree.  The kissing is a physical step forward, and talking about it is another step.   But that's it ... what happens at the reunion is the furthest they get.  In fact the reunion goes a little bit further - a public kiss, going to a motel, especially with no real "excuse" (such as fishing trips).   It's not just that Ennis won't live with Jack, but that he won't accept him or their relationship, I think - the reunion must have given Jack falso hope that he would be able to. 

[Ministering angel]

And there's also the mysterious Don Wroe's cabin. Once and only once, it seems, do they have time under a solid roof again. They "had a good time that year" and yet Ennis is never willing to repeat the time, only dragging it out as a sweetener when Jack is about to blow. And the excuses in the motel - wife and kids - seem to fall away after the divorce yet nothing changes in Ennis's unwillingness, so in a way the reunion in its entirety is the beginning of the progress - the "not much further" which pretty much lasts that night (as you say, Des, the furtherest they get) and no further - and then the beginning of the decline with all the excuses.

I guess we can assume the physical side remains at or close to the reunion advance, so the physical restriction of the DE falls away and they "get further", but Jack comes to realise over time that the metaphysical advance, i.e. Ennis coming face to face with reality, with Jack, with the knowledge that he is attracted to a man and everything which that says about himself, never happens.

So getting back to the marring or otherwise of the DE, I feel that Jack still knows its significance - that Ennis is capable of love - and still knows that somewhere in this world it's possible for him, Jack, to experience the feeling of being loved and accepted which he has wanted since being rejected by his dad, but at that trailhead in 1983 he understands at last that he's not going to get it from Ennis. I can't see why that particular feeling should be marred - it's perfect - but the circumstances surrounding it are now marred. Or something. Perhaps I should have breakfast before posting.

[CellarDweller115]

Hello members!!!!  The Admin/Mod/Tech team is coming to you with news for the new year.

When this forum was originally founded, it was under the URL we all know, www.DaveCullen.com, however, it was often referred to as the "Ultimate Brokeback Forum".  Dave's website had a link to the forum, and the two entities were joined as one.

For a host of technical reasons beyond Dave’s technical ability, he needs to turn his website over to a service that can handle much of the work—and it can’t support the massive forum database. Dave really wants the forum to proceed, so the solution is simple: just split Dave’s personal pages and the forum to two separate web addresses. Everything else remains the same.

To continue to follow Dave Cullen, you can use the existing address,   www.DaveCullen.com .

To access the Ultimate Brokeback Forum, you will need to bookmark this new address:   https://www.UltimateBrokebackForum.com/forum.

We expect this change to take place within a week's time, and there should be no major disruption to the forum.   While the UBF will no longer be linked to DCF,  Dave Cullen will retain his ownership of both sites. 

Please continue to watch the threads/newsbox for further updates!  We will attempt to give you all 24 hours notice before the change takes place.  However, you should make note of the new address now.  If you try to log in at the old address and you are unable to, try to use the new address.  Thanks for your continued participation in this community!

[CellarDweller115]

I'm copying a post from another thread, and bringing it here.

Hello everyone, yes I am late to the game (like 14 yrs late) but better that than never.  Not kidding, my first viewing of BBM was 2 weeks ago on Amazon, and yes, I was absolutely blown away and shocked how great a movie (yes an epic) it was which then got me to read the SS and it was, in its own right, absolutely great (but ultimately much darker than the movie with regards to E's life post J). 

Maybe someone can provide answers (or their interpretation) to a few questions that I have, in particular, the last meeting between E and J where it seems that J is about to end the relationship after 17 years?  I found Jack's position a bit off kilter in that E gave him good reasons why August was not going to work.  I can see how J was totally frustrated and maybe this was the last straw?  I understand these are fictional characters, but wouldn't anyone in J's position understand that E's excuses are about to come to an end (E is divorced, his daughters are rapidly approaching 18 and no more child support) and give it another 6 months or a year. 

Again, this is total conjecture, do you think if J had lived he would have met E at Pine Creek on November 7 per E's post card (interesting that up until this point it was J sending post cards) or would J have ghosted him like E ghosted Cassie?  Hard for me to believe that J, frustrated as he was, could just up and leave and not give E a chance once all his excuses are gone. 

All I can say is that I had had the opportunity to watch the film in its initial release with a theater full of people and their different reactions.

Hello co_jack!   Regarding Jack's reaction to ending the relationship, I think that after almost 20 years, Jack had come to the realization that Ennis was never going to commit to spending a future with him. 

While Alma Jr. was about to be an adult, I'm not sure how many years there were between Alma Jr. and Jenny.  It's possible that Ennis still would've been tied financially to his ex-wife for another 3 years.  If Jack was ready to break when he did, I can't see him waiting for another 3 years.  Especially if Randall was in the picture at that point.

[CellarDweller115]

Maybe you all can help me with the timing of the story, especially with regards to the last meeting between E and J.  The timeline I can gather goes something like this:

Summer 1963  start of relationship between E/J on BBM
November/December 1963 E marries A(Alma)
Sept/October 1964 Alma Jr (AJ) is born
Sometime in mid-late 1965 Jenny is born
July 4, 1966 (3 anniversary of FNIT) and fight at 4th of July picnic
Jack/Lureen marry 1966?
Bobby born January 1967
E/J reunion Sept 1967(Bobby is 8 months old)
August 1972 A intercepts postcard from J about going fishing, so this has been going on for 5 years and A does/says nothing during this time
November 1975 A and J divorce and J proposal rejected by E immediately thereafter
November 1977 Thanksgiving
1978 J meets R(Randall)

Here's where it gets a bit murky, the divorce decree stated E would pay child support until the girls reached 18 which would be Sept/Oct 1982 for AJ and sometime in 1983 for Jenny.

J states that they have been meeting like this for almost 20 years which makes me think the last meeting occurred in 1982 or maybe spring 1983.  In any case, the timing seems off, if the meeting occurred in 1983 then all J had to do was wait 6 months for AJ to emancipate and a bit longer for Jenny to do the same, so not sure why after 17 years all of a sudden J gets pissy when all he had to do was wait a bit longer and then E would essentially be free of financial obligations and THEN if E balks, J can leave with a clear conscience.

Yes I KNOW its just a movie, but obsession knows no bounds.

PS I do not for one minute think J and R had any sort of emotional bond, if anything, it was J getting needed relief when not with E.  No way R would up and leave LaS (mouth notwithstanding) and a good job for living in some cabin working on someone else's broken down ranch for nothing.  Papa Twist was right, it was just a pipe dream Jack came up with to deflect the fact that all that was said about E never amounted to anything and last thing J wanted was to look like a loser in front of Dad

The part that I bolded above reminds me of that old pop song.........

well there's a rose in the fisted glove
and eagle flies with the dove
and if you can't be with the one you love honey
love the one you're with

Do I think that Jack had the feelings for Randall that he had for Ennis?  No.....but Jack was able to see that Randall was more likely and willing to return what Jack was willing to express and share.  That would leave Jack with some options.....stay unfulfilled with Lureen, try to connect to Randall and see what happens, or wait around for an undetermined time for Ennis to finally overcome his fears and have the relationship Jack wants.   

From what we saw in the movie, Ennis was more than content to keep things the way they were, so  I don't see him changing suddenly to suit Jack and his needs.   It's possible Jack saw Randall as a better chance.

Of course, we don't know if anything ever came out of Jack and Randall, just a cryptic quote from Pa  Twist about 'some other guy' that Jack was gonna bring to the family ranch to whip it into shape.

[BlueAmber63]

Hi Colarado Jack, Welcome to our world of almost insanity !!

I'm Sue (BlueAmber) from England. I'm just part of the fixtures
and fittings !! 

[colorado_jack]

Trying to get through as many of the posts as I can without too badly affecting my life, that's hard.  I haven't seen anyone discuss why they think that it took Jack 4 years to reach out to Ennis. (Clearly J missed E terribly as shown in the scene where he is dancing with Lureen and looks wistfully over her shoulder while "no one can love you like me" plays in the background).  Also, it was clear J was not really interested in Lureen as a woman, but as 1) a cover, 2) source of money moreover, she pursued him.  I don't think it's a coincidence that J waited until he was married and had a child since I think he understood where E was coming from in that he knew E would not be able to handle it if J was clearly gay ("me neither").  J needed a cover and what better cover than having  a wife and child which one cannot have if gay.  That same pretense was carried out many times on J's part (having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife, for example) which not only didn't bother E but actually bolstered his delusion about J (and his) "straightness".

I also found it interesting that J always seemed to be outside looking in and how the movie bookended this aspect of J's life.  For example, during the scene where Bobby is a newborn and everyone but J is in the bedroom, J standing "almost out the door" looking in at the others facing a right to left direction.  Flash forward to the scene of E in J's room and there near the window is a small stool positioned so J (as a boy or a man during a visit) sits at the window (facing left to right) looking out at the world but not part of it. Its only when E sits in J's chair and sees the world through J's eyes does he seem to understand what he was missing.

There is so much to unpack, and if anyone can point to posts that explore these ideas, much appreciated.

[CellarDweller115]

Trying to get through as many of the posts as I can without too badly affecting my life, that's hard.

Oh, I remember that feeling well!

I haven't seen anyone discuss why they think that it took Jack 4 years to reach out to Ennis. (Clearly J missed E terribly as shown in the scene where he is dancing with Lureen and looks wistfully over her shoulder while "no one can love you like me" plays in the background).  Also, it was clear J was not really interested in Lureen as a woman, but as 1) a cover, 2) source of money moreover, she pursued him.  I don't think it's a coincidence that J waited until he was married and had a child since I think he understood where E was coming from in that he knew E would not be able to handle it if J was clearly gay ("me neither").  J needed a cover and what better cover than having  a wife and child which one cannot have if gay.  That same pretense was carried out many times on J's part (having an affair with a ranch foreman's wife, for example) which not only didn't bother E but actually bolstered his delusion about J (and his) "straightness".

I must admit, I never really gave it much thought.  I sort of took his explanation in the movie at his word.  When they were in the motel, he tells Ennis he went back to Brokeback to see if he had been around, Aguirre had said he wasn't , and then he met Lureen and married her.

Not to say that he necessarily wanted to marry Lureen, but it was a reason for him not to be searching for Ennis.

I also found it interesting that J always seemed to be outside looking in and how the movie bookended this aspect of J's life.  For example, during the scene where Bobby is a newborn and everyone but J is in the bedroom, J standing "almost out the door" looking in at the others facing a right to left direction.  Flash forward to the scene of E in J's room and there near the window is a small stool positioned so J (as a boy or a man during a visit) sits at the window (facing left to right) looking out at the world but not part of it. Its only when E sits in J's chair and sees the world through J's eyes does he seem to understand what he was missing.

Very good point with the "outside looking in" observation.  I can think of another time, at the bar where he is attempting to hit on Jimbo.  Jimbo walks away, and Jack is left at the bar, watching the other cowboys at the pool table.  Have me the feeling that perhaps Jack was not a welcome figure on the rodeo circuit.

There is so much to unpack, and if anyone can point to posts that explore these ideas, much appreciated.

Yeah, this story had a lot of layers to examine and peel back.

[colorado_jack]

I have finally come up for air after reading hundreds of posts.  Now when I watch BBM, I notice a lot of what is discussed, and more not discussed and I am wondering if everything I think I am seeing was intentional on the part of Heath, Jake, Ang or just my imagination. 

For example,

1). In the scene right after killing the elk where J and E are sitting around campfire, the camera pulls back to give us a long shot of them facing the camera.  I noticed that J is taking an exaggerated man spreading stance where his right knee is touching E's left knee.  Looks like J is trying to get E more comfortable with a physical touch or is this just my imagination.  If so, indicates to me that J was planning on something like the FNIT and took it when the opportunity arose.

2).  At J's parents house, is J's mother wearing the same style clothes as J had in his closet?  She is wearing blue sweater (J's shirt) over a checked pattern shirt ( E shirt, barely visible).  Seems like, if true, she knew about J and E, was sending E a message, and explains why she wanted him to come back (assume J would tell mom about E and E represents the one love of her dead son).

3).  E seems to have this habit of using his thumb to rub whatever he feels affection for, such as Alma's cheek on the hill in the snow, Jenny's cheek at Thanksgiving, and the first postcard from J?

4). In the last scene with Alma Jr is discussing her upcoming marriage, the closet that houses the shirts (and E and J relationship) is always in view over her right shoulder.  Am I making too much of this, or does this represent the ever presence of the J and the bond between J and E.

Not sure if this is in the right place, but figured that I would post it here.