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Author Topic: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II  (Read 491609 times)

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2008, 12:07:48 AM »
Just as in the movie, but not shown as in the movie, from the moment he knows they are finished, everything is churning around inside him. This is the point at which I have some problems with the story. Though I believe the punch scene is gutted of both its impact and its meaning if you decide they were fooling around before hearing of the recall, the fact of the punch says Ennis is in fact in turmoil, which culminates in taking it out on Jack. That being the case, I have a really hard time believing he would be in the mood for sex after hearing of the recall--not because it would be queer, though that is a valid thought, but because he was really upset, as in the movie. Though I suppose Jack might have grabbed him, teased him and almost with relief he went for it, because that was what had come to be normal for them--but the feelings were still there, and the combination of blood and tenderness was the flashpoint. I wonder if indeed something like the punch might not have happened anyway, some kind of rejection, before the sex was completed. After all, having sex one more time kind of implies he needed to. Not good.

Something else got me thinking - the mention by Ennis that somebody could have seen us - I think it was CSI who suggested it might be tied to the recall and Aguirre or whoever coming up.   It seems to be something Ennis has noticed, but suspects that Jack hasn't (we don't know if he knows about Aguirre riding up and talking to Jack that other time, because Aguirre waited for him to go back to the sheep, and Jack might not have told.   So as far as Ennis is concerned, nobody has come up to the camp).     The punch happens, Jack is laid out, Ennis walks off back to camp.   What if the person came into camp then?   It would fit nicely with the recall being seen as a judgement, but would also explain Ennis worrying about somebody seeing them after the fact.

You see, I'm kind of with you on them not having sex while bringing the sheep down, for various reasons - 1. Somebody has just ridden into camp - the first time Ennis realises that they might have been seen (more pertinent if Ennis has already had the fear from the punch, of course), 2. They will be upset, as you said, Ennis not quite knowing why, 3. They are in a hurry to get the sheep off - we know Ennis has neglected them before, so might continue to do so, but if there is a sense of urgency, would they stop for sex? and 4. The outside world intruding, the 'safety' of the mountain disappearing, the mood lost - I don't know if they would. 

The punch before the recall, then.   I'm warming to the idea - particularly as unlike in the film, the recall isn't needed, necessarily, for the punch to happen.  The other factors are enough.

I kind of agree that the sequence of events in the punch are important - it's the ministering which causes the punch, but it's also the fact that it happens with the sex and the nosebleed.     There's that bit in the film where Jack 'ministers' to Ennis after he's confronted the bear - Ennis rejects it but doesn't act so violently without the other factors.   I think that even in the book, if it had just been the ministering after a non-sex-related injury, and without the nosebleed and blood all over them, it might have been different.

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2008, 06:51:01 AM »

So why is it the ministering and not the nosebleed which kicks it off? What specifically causes the dam to break, in your opinion?

And "out and proud"?  ;D ;D

Quote
Oh, I think it's both together. Annie links the two, after all, and it makes perfect sense
.
Can you explain this? I don't follow....

I don't agree with out and proud, though..I don't see any kind of pride, until he shows Jack off to Alma and in the end, is proud to take the ashes up-Pride being the opposite of shame. And not sure where the pride follows the out, in this story-even Jack remains cautious to an extent, keeping his friends info in his head.

RE: Annie linking the ministering and the nosebleed: simply that they occur in two sentences together. Ennis bled. Jack tried to blot the blood but didn't finish because Ennis punched him. This juxtaposition links the two events, nosebleed and its results, caring and punch. Therefore we have assumed that for some reason, the nosebleed and/or the caring cause the punch. The "some reason" can be variously assumed to be some combination of a. memories of Earl, triggering rejection b. memories of mother's tenderness, ie love, triggering rejection because of Earl and c. both a and b plus c, Ennis' rapidly building turmoil as guilt, shame, impending loss and fear boiling over as the blood and Jack's tenderness together trigger both flight and fight instincts.

As to out and proud, if you re-read it, you will see I was making a joke. For Ennis especially, though Jack also, Brokeback, however imperfect it may--or may not--have been, it was certainly Paradise compared to everything that followed it. Including the Reunion. On Brokeback, if he was not free, he was as free as he would ever be.
I see I didn't follow you.....thanks.

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2008, 07:00:24 AM »
Just as in the movie, but not shown as in the movie, from the moment he knows they are finished, everything is churning around inside him. This is the point at which I have some problems with the story. Though I believe the punch scene is gutted of both its impact and its meaning if you decide they were fooling around before hearing of the recall, the fact of the punch says Ennis is in fact in turmoil, which culminates in taking it out on Jack. That being the case, I have a really hard time believing he would be in the mood for sex after hearing of the recall--not because it would be queer, though that is a valid thought, but because he was really upset, as in the movie. Though I suppose Jack might have grabbed him, teased him and almost with relief he went for it, because that was what had come to be normal for them--but the feelings were still there, and the combination of blood and tenderness was the flashpoint. I wonder if indeed something like the punch might not have happened anyway, some kind of rejection, before the sex was completed. After all, having sex one more time kind of implies he needed to. Not good.

Something else got me thinking - the mention by Ennis that somebody could have seen us - I think it was CSI who suggested it might be tied to the recall and Aguirre or whoever coming up.   It seems to be something Ennis has noticed, but suspects that Jack hasn't (we don't know if he knows about Aguirre riding up and talking to Jack that other time, because Aguirre waited for him to go back to the sheep, and Jack might not have told.   So as far as Ennis is concerned, nobody has come up to the camp).     The punch happens, Jack is laid out, Ennis walks off back to camp.   What if the person came into camp then?   It would fit nicely with the recall being seen as a judgement, but would also explain Ennis worrying about somebody seeing them after the fact.

You see, I'm kind of with you on them not having sex while bringing the sheep down, for various reasons - 1. Somebody has just ridden into camp - the first time Ennis realises that they might have been seen (more pertinent if Ennis has already had the fear from the punch, of course), 2. They will be upset, as you said, Ennis not quite knowing why, 3. They are in a hurry to get the sheep off - we know Ennis has neglected them before, so might continue to do so, but if there is a sense of urgency, would they stop for sex? and 4. The outside world intruding, the 'safety' of the mountain disappearing, the mood lost - I don't know if they would. 

The punch before the recall, then.   I'm warming to the idea - particularly as unlike in the film, the recall isn't needed, necessarily, for the punch to happen.  The other factors are enough.

I kind of agree that the sequence of events in the punch are important - it's the ministering which causes the punch, but it's also the fact that it happens with the sex and the nosebleed.     There's that bit in the film where Jack 'ministers' to Ennis after he's confronted the bear - Ennis rejects it but doesn't act so violently without the other factors.   I think that even in the book, if it had just been the ministering after a non-sex-related injury, and without the nosebleed and blood all over them, it might have been different.
The one point that is new to my thinking on this is the ideaof Ennis being too upset to have sex if they were being recalled early.....I don't think he had any idea of being seen by anyone, and indeed, there may have been some titillation with the idea of getting 'caught'-because in his mind, they are not doing anything queer-just being bad boys, in a way. He does not associate, until the punch. So I don't think he is connecting the punishment of coming down early, with the sex-I think he is fearful he effed up on the job, and the sheep got mixed, and maybe somebody found out. Deep down, yes, there is always the underlying guilt.

Just another way to look at it.

I am going to reread that section again.

Keep in mind, to, the simple order of  relaying of events, during them happening, might be, from a timeline perspective, completely accurate-ie, the last afternoon was the last one they spent up there, and we get the narrative about them being pulled down early BEFORE that...I think the retro-narrative is strictly at the end. The pieces come together, in retrospect.

I still say we have to trust Ennis's shirt memory from that time-there is nothing in it that tells us he did not know at the time of the punch that it was their last time together-and it seems to indicate he knew at the time, that it was their last afternoon together-it seems tied up with the memory. Again, he learns something as Jack did thru new eyes, recalling in detail an emblazoned memory-for Jack it was the moment, the single one, of artless happiness; for Ennis, at the time,  his great memory is of a monumental failure regarding perhaps the only person, beyond his kids and family, that he ever really  loved.

The memories must be trustworthy, IMO.

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2008, 07:08:38 AM »
I'm still not convinced that we know Brokeback was the best time for Jack.   He picks out the dozy embrace specifically, not the rest of it.   The DE itself is the best, and it happened on Brokeback, but that doesn't mean Brokeback was better than the rest.    He dismisses it later in the story, and then lets us know that he was trying to move on from Brokeback (unlike Ennis who seems to be trying to move back there).    I also don't see that Jack somehow didn't notice the restrictions or didn't care.   I think the DE shows us that he did.   He wasn't free at all - he had to tread carefully, and when he slipped up he was rejected, warned, and finally punched.

After Brokeback, Jack seems more positive - he's had Ennis's confession of love, and he continues to make plans for Ennis to move in with him - he really believes it's going to happen one day.   It's hard to say whether he's much happier, but seemingly he has a lot more to go on.   It's only at the end that he seems to look back and realise that they weren't making progress at all - that they hadn't got much farther than Brokeback.     That's what bothers him - not that they can't recreate Brokeback, but that they can't move on from it.
Of course, and common sense: How can the BBM memory not be tarnished, after the punch? the single moment is just that, a single moment-the author SPELLS this out, literally;  and even that single moment is recalled by Jack 20 years later, with all the surrounding crap-'even the knowledge Ennis would not then embrace him f/f, because he did not want to see nor feel it was Jack he held.' Of course the memory HAS to be accurate and literal-we are the metaphor interpreters, not Jack.  He remembers things as they were; he was the one it happened to.
 It is illogical to question a pivotal memory, unless we are told it is inaccurate. This is not the real world-the story is a construct. We can't be so misled and then expected to understand the point, if Jack is so off and so is Ennis on their most crucial memories-the DE and the punch-then is just becomes, 'oh, darn people, we all just don't communicate well'-but that is not the stated point of the story.  Plus if we agree Ennis is seeing things/events accurately with his moment-why would Jack not be with his? Now, what they cull from those events is another story-but even that seems pretty clear, and drives the narrative forward.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 07:17:10 AM by CANSTANDIT »

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2008, 07:13:24 AM »
oH, and even on film, look how angry Jack is when he says, 'all we got is BBM!" He is putting it down, not holding it up....He sees the imagined power; him wanting to be buried up there is an early indicator that he's started to give up on Ennis-he wants his ashes where the DE was, something he starts to suspect he'll never feel again.

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2008, 07:50:37 AM »
oH, and even on film, look how angry Jack is when he says, 'all we got is BBM!" He is putting it down, not holding it up....He sees the imagined power; him wanting to be buried up there is an early indicator that he's started to give up on Ennis-he wants his ashes where the DE was, something he starts to suspect he'll never feel again.

Am I right in thinking that it is just Jack that you don't think had a wonderful time on Brokeback Mountain?
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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #96 on: January 18, 2008, 08:14:25 AM »
oH, and even on film, look how angry Jack is when he says, 'all we got is BBM!" He is putting it down, not holding it up....He sees the imagined power; him wanting to be buried up there is an early indicator that he's started to give up on Ennis-he wants his ashes where the DE was, something he starts to suspect he'll never feel again.

Am I right in thinking that it is just Jack that you don't think had a wonderful time on Brokeback Mountain?
That would not be accurate to say, really,  although I'm sure Jack enjoyed himself ..the campfire talk, and the sex....but looking back..He is frustrated...And again, Ennis had the 'wonderful time' because he was in denial of what 'it' meant. The prologue tells us that, that it 'seemed' that nothing was wrong. Are you seeing the difference?
I think we get so little of Jack's inner thoughts on BBM, perhaps only, 'but not a gd word', which I think kind of IS Jack talking. We know they had a high old time, and both knew they'd continue with the sex. But for Jack it was a mixed bag-and ULTIMATELY, when he bumps up the future, the now of the last scene, agains the past, that distant summer on BBM, he sees the fatal flaw.
Ennis gets to that years later....and I'm sure the time on BBM was marred for him, too, by what he did-the punch. But he is a different tool than Jack-he probably just moved on and compartmentalized it all, kept the imagined power in his sights,  until Jack's death sent the truth rocketing up-whereas Jack went over and over the dozy embrace-it solidified in his memory, and eventually, he got to the underlying truth, sooner than Ennis.

Jack; "maybe they'd not got much further than that'. he knows then.
Ennis: "when they owned the world and nothing SEEMED wrong.' he knows later.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 08:22:39 AM by CANSTANDIT »

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #97 on: January 18, 2008, 08:41:01 AM »
Quote from royandronnie

Yes. I agree with Janjo. We have to take Annie's word for this: while they were on Brokeback, they felt free, Ennis especially. She says this repeatedly in different ways--pawing the white out, finding companionship, laughing and snorting. Now, we argue again and again that he wasn't free, by OUR standards, but by his own, he was out and proud. He remembers it as a euphoric time, until the end, when the sudden recall crashed fun, fantasy and denial into reality and ruined everything. I would say his sense of shame did not develop like a rising tide, but like a dam breaking--it was in fact growing all the time but was safe behind their isolation and the guaranteed time they had alone. When those two things were stolen from him, with him as yet unprepared for the end, the dam burst and in grief, shame, anger and fear he punched Jack because he could neither bear to have his intimacy, nor bear to lose him.

                                                   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You see, I agree with Charlotte, I think we are told over and over again what a good time Jack and Ennis had up on Brokeback. It might not have been perfect, in fact if either of us had to live it, I suspect we would find it very uncomfortable, cold, wet, primitive etc. but to them it was the best time of their lives.
That is why Ennis was always seeking to recreate it. It was the best thing these two lonely and damaged boys had ever experienced.
That may seem very sad, but it seems to me it was so.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 02:30:00 PM by janjo »
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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #98 on: January 18, 2008, 08:48:36 AM »
No one said it was perfect of course...But, sure, they had a good time,and yes, Ennis tries to create the circumstances, the time before he knew the kind of feelings he had for Jack. He does not want accountability. That is why he always wants them away from people who might judge him, who might kill and humiliate him-as Mini said, they can't hardly be 'decent' in civilized circles-sadly, he's wrong. He does not realize just how much familiarity breeds-familiarity. ;)

How much fun they had I don't think has ever been an issue-and up until that time, it was the best time Ennis had ever had-we can assume the same for Jack.

But I don't think that in anyway murks up the queer-fear Ennis had, or the ultimate dissatsifaction Jack had. We are being told it was an illusion-a  happy one, but an illusion. The imagined power of Brokeback Mountain vanishes in his hands while he holds the shirts-and it took 20 years.

 My point is they look back and see the truth.


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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #99 on: January 18, 2008, 08:49:06 AM »
Later, kiddies, I'm off today and have a breakfast thing to go to. :)

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #100 on: January 18, 2008, 09:23:47 AM »
The one point that is new to my thinking on this is the ideaof Ennis being too upset to have sex if they were being recalled early.....I don't think he had any idea of being seen by anyone, and indeed, there may have been some titillation with the idea of getting 'caught'-because in his mind, they are not doing anything queer-just being bad boys, in a way. He does not associate, until the punch. So I don't think he is connecting the punishment of coming down early, with the sex-I think he is fearful he effed up on the job, and the sheep got mixed, and maybe somebody found out. Deep down, yes, there is always the underlying guilt.

Well, that's the thing - he doesn't seem to have any idea of being seen by anyone, and the one time he might have got that idea, he doesn't, because Aguirre waits for him to go back to the sheep before confronting Jack.   So we don't really know what would happen if he suddenly was confronted with someone who could have seen him - and that's what would have happened for the first time when Aguirre sent word up.   If the word comes before the punch, Ennis knows they could have been seen - he can no longer believe they are invisible.   I suppose the question is how much that affects him - it could just make him a little bit on edge during sex, or it could make him avoid sex altogether. 

Quote
Keep in mind, to, the simple order of  relaying of events, during them happening, might be, from a timeline perspective, completely accurate-ie, the last afternoon was the last one they spent up there, and we get the narrative about them being pulled down early BEFORE that...I think the retro-narrative is strictly at the end. The pieces come together, in retrospect.

I still say we have to trust Ennis's shirt memory from that time-there is nothing in it that tells us he did not know at the time of the punch that it was their last time together-and it seems to indicate he knew at the time, that it was their last afternoon together-it seems tied up with the memory. Again, he learns something as Jack did thru new eyes, recalling in detail an emblazoned memory-for Jack it was the moment, the single one, of artless happiness; for Ennis, at the time,  his great memory is of a monumental failure regarding perhaps the only person, beyond his kids and family, that he ever really  loved.

The memories must be trustworthy, IMO.

I agree that we can trust the memories - it's definitely the last afternoon.   There's nothing that tell us he didn't know - but also nothing that tells us he did.    And the earlier bit in the book when we hear about them coming down all runs together.   There isn't a point where you can tell that the punch slots in (maybe you can - you're better at that sort of thing). 

The next week Joe Aguirre sent word to bring them down -- another, bigger storm was moving in from the Pacific -- and they packed in the game and moved off the mountain with the sheep, stones rolling at their heels, purple cloud crowding in from the west and the metal smell of coming snow pressing them on. The mountain boiled with demonic energy, glazed with flickering broken-cloud light, the wind combed the grass and drew from the damaged krummholz and slit rock a bestial drone. As they descended the slope Ennis felt he was in a slow-motion, but headlong, irreversible fall.

Aguirre pays them off, they talk about next summer and we're told about Jack's bruise. 

He looked away from Jack's jaw, bruised blue from the hard punch Ennis had thrown him on the last day.

The way it reads to me, Jack was punched the day before (the 'last day' rather than 'that afternoon' or 'earlier that day'), and it sound as if as soon as they got word they started moving off, which would suggest that they got word the day after the punch.   Of course, it's very open to interpretation.   I'm not so much arguing for a particular timing as curious about why it's left so open.

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #101 on: January 18, 2008, 09:33:34 AM »
You see, I agree with Charlotte, I think we are told over and over again what a good time Jack and Ennis had up on Brokeback. It might not have been perfect, in fact if either of us had to live it, I suspect we would find it very uncomfortable, cold, wet, primitive etc. but to them it was the best time of their lives.
That is why Ennis was always seeking to recreate it. It was the best thing these two lonely and damaged boys had ever experienced.
That may seem very sad, but it seems to me it was so.

Yes, for Ennis it was the best time because of his denial.   While in denial, he could believe that what they were doing was fine, that what he felt for Jack was right and good, and he could accept Jack, and himself.   (We're not told much about the discomforts - I imagine they didn't affect them too much.)  So yes, he tries to recreate it, but he can't, because it isn't possible to recreate it without the denial. 

Jack, on the other hand, is not so much in denial and is aware of the restrictions.   He doesn't long for Brokeback, but for that one, single moment on Brokeback when the restrictions didn't matter because Ennis was openly showing love and acceptance.     I think it's clear when he thinks that maybe they never got much farther that he'd hoped for them to get farther - to move away from Brokeback, rather than to recreate it.

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #102 on: January 18, 2008, 01:36:57 PM »
You've got me thinking, Des, re timing:

The first snow comes on the 13th of August-they had 5 days before this that got blown getting the sheep unmixed, it appears, as we are not told Ennis does it in a storm-So it was only a short period for 'the whole night', like the first week in August-not arguing one or more night, just timing the beginning of his inkling that he's crossing a line with Jack. It's miserable because its hard to do, and he's worried. So he already has cause for fear of Aguirre, and he has the first sign, with the punishment of the sheep going astray. (And they thought themselves invisible, and Ennis is never there when Aguirre shows up, right? So like everything else, he just buries what he knows underneath, in order to do what he is driven to do-be with Jack.) Ok so far?

 For purposes of this, they could've spent all 7 nights together, and day 7 is the blowy hailstorm, is a possibility-Add the sheep getting mixed, 5 days, you've got day 12 or so, and on day 13 the storm comes in.  This is based on the theory that they spend every night in Aug up until the hailstorm...if not, then there could be a gap between getting the sheep unmixed, and the snowstorm-not sure if that means anything.

(I can't believe Ennis sees the storm of the 13th this as a forewarning-the sheep, yes-not the weather. He's grown up with it in Wyoming, it snows in August-it just came early that time....)

So, the next phase we have  is assuming he is not at this time sleeping with Jack all night, but just being with him during the day-'as it did go' for the rest of the summer-We have Ennis on edge anyway, because he knew the wrong sheep were coming down with them-he is going to worry about this until confronted by Aguirre. Work is very important to him, and going up to the sheep daily was also  his semblance of control with Jack, So...things as ususal, more or less, except for the sheep getting mixed-its both a job fear, and a sense underlying that he has been a bad boy-'everything seemed mixed'. (Again, the mixing of the masses, gay and straight, repped by the wandering sheep...He is feeling mixed about his desire for Jack.)

Jack meanwhile is beaming from the stay-over; again, be it one or seven nights, Jack MUST think of it as a wanted advancement; Ennis wants to spend 24 hours with him, straight-Ennis certainly thinks its a change-he is disquieted about it. It now feels mixed. We never have this before in the story-Ennis takes care to not do what he thinks is Q; so this feels q to him, obviously. So therefore, it must be a change-we are not told of anything sooner....

So, here comes the two ships crashing in the night: Jack thinks things are progressing;  Ennis begins having real fears about this advancement, perhaps regressing a bit, maybe staying away from Jack....Then, Aguirre calls them the next week-no day specified -and tells them to come down. We are NOT told he tells them this minute, or tomorrow, or whatever-but I do think there is a sense of urgency. In this light, I can't argue them having the sex/punch event, and the next morning being told to come down...because that is alot of money tied up in the livestock Aguirre has to be worried about....

Actually, if you read the way it happens on film, its all the SAME day, but they find out before the punch. So its compressed, for the sake of the action-we get no reprieve, and neither do they. So that both contradicts and supports points of the argument-they find out, but come down the same day, whereas it is afternoon when the punch happens in the book and Jack has to  find a moment to steal the shirt-makes me think he did it when Ennis went back up that night-he'd not risk it in camp with Ennis there, esp not after the punch. So where would Ennis be? Up with the sheep, at night......So yes, I guess it could happen that the next morning, they get word...and oh, wouldn't that be just a perfect cap-off to the warnings of a)the sheep getting mixed; b)the early snow and c) the comedown from the mountain, all happening after Ennis spends the whole night with Jack.

Again, sounds just so pat to me.....but it is entirely possible, no arguments. I do think a  lack of this confluence of events is more subtle, more realistic and works better-the triple play seems too predictable.  :-\

So, can't argue timing-I frankly can't see anything to dispute it from a timing standpt. I wonder if in the author's mind it seemed clear one way or the other, and she thought no more detail needed. She hasn't met us, obviously. Well, not all of us...... :D ;)



{Des make a great point, in that she's very clear on that August date, giving us limits of when what could happen-then gets vague again. Makes me feel she might be doing the pat thing, after all.}
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 01:47:20 PM by CANSTANDIT »

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #103 on: January 18, 2008, 02:33:00 PM »
You see, I agree with Charlotte, I think we are told over and over again what a good time Jack and Ennis had up on Brokeback. It might not have been perfect, in fact if either of us had to live it, I suspect we would find it very uncomfortable, cold, wet, primitive etc. but to them it was the best time of their lives.
That is why Ennis was always seeking to recreate it. It was the best thing these two lonely and damaged boys had ever experienced.
That may seem very sad, but it seems to me it was so.

Yes, for Ennis it was the best time because of his denial.   While in denial, he could believe that what they were doing was fine, that what he felt for Jack was right and good, and he could accept Jack, and himself.   (We're not told much about the discomforts - I imagine they didn't affect them too much.)  So yes, he tries to recreate it, but he can't, because it isn't possible to recreate it without the denial. 

Jack, on the other hand, is not so much in denial and is aware of the restrictions.   He doesn't long for Brokeback, but for that one, single moment on Brokeback when the restrictions didn't matter because Ennis was openly showing love and acceptance.     I think it's clear when he thinks that maybe they never got much farther that he'd hoped for them to get farther - to move away from Brokeback, rather than to recreate it.

I am sorry to say, Des, that I don't see this at all. I just don't think that is what we are being told.
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #104 on: January 18, 2008, 02:34:42 PM »
I'd love to see you address each of Des's points, if its not too late at night..it might help understand what you do see.  :)

what time is it over there, by the way?