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Author Topic: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II  (Read 616130 times)

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #150 on: January 22, 2008, 03:16:56 AM »
I am not trying to say that Jack saw it as a good thing that they weren't face to face, rather that it was necessary for the author to make the point that Jack connected the embrace with the parental love that Jack never had, at least from his father.
If they had kissed face to face AT THAT POINT then that illusion could have been destroyed.
hmmm.....I  don't think Jack needed to favor the parental love over the complete love/sex package that he clearly wanted by asking Ennis to do the C and C later..what I mean is, he craved the feeling of pure, unconditioanl love, not because he wanted it all by itself; but because he did not see, feel it otherwise from Ennis, during the sex only. I'll agree the love part is more important to him, which is why he singles that moment out; but it only is singled out, because he is being forced to choose, because he does not feel the that DE love during sex, on BBM. If he DID, we'd not have the DE as a standout memory.
We'd have some moment when they had sex and Ennis somehow expressed love to Jack and Jack knew it. This does not appear to happen on BBM..and the shocker of the dE at the end, seems to imply, he did not feel it after that; he knew it was there BECAUSE of the DE-but he simply did not feel it , before or after.
That's the whole point of the DE. Its a 'single moment' in Jack's life. And the author is telling us they shared it, for once.

R&R: Now as I think of it, Jack did experience what the author is explaining, because he can't define it: 'some' shared and sexless hunger, so I stand corrected-but I'm not clear myself on how much is Jack and how much is AP, completely. I think most of it is Jack, but I'd wager the objective 'separate and difficult lives' is a narrative statement, wheras the 'single moment' is Jack's.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 03:24:28 AM by CANSTANDIT »

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #151 on: January 22, 2008, 03:30:51 AM »
But don't you think a lover face to face is more likely to be interpreted by the receiver of the embrace as a sexual approach?

It could be.   In Jack and Ennis's case, where we see that Ennis was behind Jack during sex, an approach from behind might come across as just as sexual to the receiver. 

For lovers who are happy and comfortable with each other and what you're doing, I don't think you'd tend to see these clear distinctions.   Sometimes sexless embraces will segue into sexual ones, and vice versa.   That acceptance is something that would be expressed from day to day, not as a one off.   There are two big surprises with the DE itself - that Ennis could do it, and that it only happened once.  (And then the later surprises, that Ennis didn't want to see or feel Jack and that they didn't get much farther).    We know that Ennis continued to love Jack, so the puzzle is why he didn't do anything that felt like this to Jack ever again.   I think that comes down to his denial on the mountain (not being face to face, avoiding seeing or feeling Jack) allowing him to do it - Jack is his straight friend.   That's why it's only once, because after Brokeback Ennis knew too much.  That's the killer - this isn't all in Jack's head - Ennis really doesn't accept hiim.   He shows that in the Mexico argument. 
RE: bolded: By most lovers, yes...but Jack is accustomed to sex from behind with Ennis....it would be a significant love/sex experience; and we know this because when it is combined, with the ministering by Jack, Ennis's walls are down, and it is likely he sees reflected back what he really feels deep down-because he is looking into Jack's face and vice versa. This is incredibly important, both as character development and plot development. If we miss this point, it alters the entire story-Ennis loses his character motivation-to both ultimately have Jack for 20 years- and be in denial overwhy. The punch seals thier fates. It is the non-lethal version of the tire iron-except indirectly, it IS lethal; Jack's death is tied to it, forever.

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #152 on: January 22, 2008, 04:18:21 AM »
ok, second attempt to leave Themes for good..... :D


'they keep pulling me back IN.....'

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #153 on: January 22, 2008, 11:37:34 AM »
But don't you think a lover face to face is more likely to be interpreted by the receiver of the embrace as a sexual approach?

It could be.   In Jack and Ennis's case, where we see that Ennis was behind Jack during sex, an approach from behind might come across as just as sexual to the receiver. 

For lovers who are happy and comfortable with each other and what you're doing, I don't think you'd tend to see these clear distinctions.   Sometimes sexless embraces will segue into sexual ones, and vice versa.   That acceptance is something that would be expressed from day to day, not as a one off.   There are two big surprises with the DE itself - that Ennis could do it, and that it only happened once.  (And then the later surprises, that Ennis didn't want to see or feel Jack and that they didn't get much farther).    We know that Ennis continued to love Jack, so the puzzle is why he didn't do anything that felt like this to Jack ever again.   I think that comes down to his denial on the mountain (not being face to face, avoiding seeing or feeling Jack) allowing him to do it - Jack is his straight friend.   That's why it's only once, because after Brokeback Ennis knew too much.  That's the killer - this isn't all in Jack's head - Ennis really doesn't accept hiim.   He shows that in the Mexico argument. 

If Jack had been able to see Ennis face there would not, however, have been any way that Jack could have confused the love he was receiving as the parental love he had never received from his father. I say "confused" I am not suggesting in any way that he had a delusion that Ennis was his father, but rather a confusion in emotional feeling.
Also, what is said about the DE is "nothing marred it" so Jack was obviously not unhappy about the situation.
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Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #154 on: January 22, 2008, 12:28:46 PM »
Nothing marred the DE, not the not being face to face, though.   Ennis's avoidance is something that Jack brings up as something that might have marred the DE but didn't - if he sees it as positive, why would he think of it as something that might mar his happiest moment?  He was unhappy about it - but that memory transcended it. 

If you take away Ennis's homophobia and denial (and end up with no story, of course) then I don't see why Jack would object to him showing that sort of love face to face.    If he could have looked into his eyes in an embrace and seen that parental love and acceptance there, I think he would have treasured that even more than the DE.   I don't see that that would have been a worse experience for him because Ennis's avoidance wasn't there.     It's not that Jack wants Ennis's avoidance - he makes it clear that he sees it as rejection: Ennis did not want to see or feel him.  Why do you think Jack would be happy that Ennis felt that way?   Why would he want that?

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #155 on: January 22, 2008, 03:24:32 PM »

If Jack had been able to see Ennis face there would not, however, have been any way that Jack could have confused the love he was receiving as the parental love he had never received from his father. I say "confused" I am not suggesting in any way that he had a delusion that Ennis was his father, but rather a confusion in emotional feeling.
Also, what is said about the DE is "nothing marred it" so Jack was obviously not unhappy about the situation.

But, janjo, Jack knew it was Ennis who was holding him, and if we subscribe to the "missing parental love" theory as I do, then Jack also feels in some manner that he is getting that love which his father did not give, getting it from a man who has come to replace Mr T in Jack's eyes. It makes no difference whether Ennis holds him from the front or the back in this respect. Jack knows, or thinks he knows, or feels that he is getting that "missing material" at last. The DE is that moment when, just as their shadows are as one, the two of them complete one another in a way they never do again. Their positioning is irrelevant.

However, later on, when Jack begins to understand the depth of Ennis's problems, he begins to realise why Ennis did it that way, and why he behaved in such a restrictive way on the mountain. At that time he must start to feel the incongruity of his memory - it is so good because he feels he is getting what he needs, yet at the same time it is set up in a certain way because Ennis cannot truly give Jack what he needs., i.e. full acceptance of who and what he is. It's a very cruel arrangement. This is where the positioning becomes crucial, not because of how it makes Jack feel but because it tells us and Jack how Ennis feels, which is the basis of the story.

But Jack lives in hopes until he gets the final proof that Ennis cannot accept him. He reveals the thing he has concealed- his true sexuality - and sees Ennis first threaten him and then collapse. And so he at last understands that the promise of the DE was false. The DE has been fossilised in memory just as the shirts are stiff with long suspension. When he finally takes it out that last time and remembers it again (rather like a security blanket) he understands at last that it was (apparently) based on a fallacy.


Offline mrbluebird

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #156 on: January 23, 2008, 03:14:28 AM »

If Jack had been able to see Ennis face there would not, however, have been any way that Jack could have confused the love he was receiving as the parental love he had never received from his father. I say "confused" I am not suggesting in any way that he had a delusion that Ennis was his father, but rather a confusion in emotional feeling.
Also, what is said about the DE is "nothing marred it" so Jack was obviously not unhappy about the situation.

But, janjo, Jack knew it was Ennis who was holding him, and if we subscribe to the "missing parental love" theory as I do, then Jack also feels in some manner that he is getting that love which his father did not give, getting it from a man who has come to replace Mr T in Jack's eyes. It makes no difference whether Ennis holds him from the front or the back in this respect. Jack knows, or thinks he knows, or feels that he is getting that "missing material" at last. The DE is that moment when, just as their shadows are as one, the two of them complete one another in a way they never do again. Their positioning is irrelevant.

However, later on, when Jack begins to understand the depth of Ennis's problems, he begins to realise why Ennis did it that way, and why he behaved in such a restrictive way on the mountain. At that time he must start to feel the incongruity of his memory - it is so good because he feels he is getting what he needs, yet at the same time it is set up in a certain way because Ennis cannot truly give Jack what he needs., i.e. full acceptance of who and what he is. It's a very cruel arrangement. This is where the positioning becomes crucial, not because of how it makes Jack feel but because it tells us and Jack how Ennis feels, which is the basis of the story.

But Jack lives in hopes until he gets the final proof that Ennis cannot accept him. He reveals the thing he has concealed- his true sexuality - and sees Ennis first threaten him and then collapse. And so he at last understands that the promise of the DE was false. The DE has been fossilised in memory just as the shirts are stiff with long suspension. When he finally takes it out that last time and remembers it again (rather like a security blanket) he understands at last that it was (apparently) based on a fallacy.



At this point, after Heath, it may seem odd to defend the Dozy but in that world you have to accept constraints if you want to stay there.  Jack would just need to wait a bit 'til child support was finished, or perhaps make his own hard decisions.  Why not quit his job and move near Ennis?

Perhaps the Dozy is just a brief mirage, and both are not gay enough to stick by it!

Maybe it's all ok, and their time was like a break in the battle in the wretched life of a lonely heart. Then it's back on the train, back on the chain gang.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #157 on: January 24, 2008, 07:20:23 AM »
That last post of mine was done yesterday. I read it through then decided to modify it. When I hit the Modify button the News Box updated with the news about Heath. Everyone knows how much I love these threads but I won't be back in the foreseeable future. When I do, look out! But until then ..... someone will have to keep the seat warm for me.

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #158 on: January 24, 2008, 08:03:05 AM »
I look forward to seeing you back again.

I've deleted my last post (don't worry, you didn't miss much).  I feel as if I'm intruding on people's grief here, so I'll bow out for now as well.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #159 on: January 24, 2008, 10:49:56 AM »
No, never intruding! I just can't wrap my head around literary arguments at present when a real person has died. And yes, I've wept buckets over literary Jack and Ennis, the realest fictional characters I know.

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #160 on: January 24, 2008, 11:08:43 AM »
Hopefully when the pain eases we will be able to consider the literary Ennis and Jack again. It is a testament to Heath's work that we feel as we do about the character of Ennis del Mar, and if he felt so strongly, maybe we should continue to love Ennis the literary character as a tribute to that great piece of work.
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Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #161 on: January 24, 2008, 12:14:02 PM »
Well said, Janjo. 

Offline royandronnie

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #162 on: January 30, 2008, 09:41:58 PM »
It's been a week and a day, and this is the first time I've even been really curious enough to come in here. I feel like Auden: "Stop all the clocks." Well, that seems to have happened in here.

I have nothing to add either. Except that I just wanted to add something.
"…in the family homestead of his dead lover, the shirts they wore while cowboying together long before: shabby denim and weary cotton, wrapped in each other's arms." Like this. Always.

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Offline Dal

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #163 on: January 31, 2008, 05:46:42 AM »
I find I also have no interest in the niceties of fiction at the moment.
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Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #164 on: January 31, 2008, 10:29:38 AM »
I feel that I will want to consider fictional matters at some time in the future, after all Ennis del Mar did have a literary life before he met up with the wonderful Mr Ledger, and as a tribute to everything, and everyone that Ennis stood for, and to everyone and everything that Heath Ledger made him stand for, I would like us to continue.

Not yet though.

Apologies for not being present much these last few days. My Broadband has died, and I am left with a very slow dial up connection which I can't use very often. Hopefully normal service will be resumed at some point.
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"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan