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Author Topic: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II  (Read 616105 times)

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #405 on: June 10, 2008, 07:59:17 PM »
Not quite:  at the Reunion, Jack "had been riding more than bulls, not rolling his own."  While there's some uncertainty as to whether these partners were men or women, (presumably) no payment was involved. 

   I'm sorry, I didn't get that part of the citation where "no funds exchange hands" is part of "rolling your own."  Can you refer to it for me, please?


Err, Jack was dirt-poor during most (if not all) of the time between Brokeback and the Reunion:  no money to fix the truck, almost starved, had to borrow everything except a toothbrush.  Obviously, it's not explicitly stated that he lacked the money to pay for sex during this time, but it seems much more likely than the alternative.

Cheers,

Dagonet
-I have to agree. In fact, its entirely possible he did his own hustling here and there; I  don't think Jack was above that, to survive, and to escape lonliness. He was simply not cut out to be by himself. It destroyed him in the end, just being without his one true love, as they say. Ennis could survive alone, with fantasies of Jack. Jack could not do the same. He needed the person there, the human touch.

 And I would not be suprised if he exchanged favors for belongings, poor as he was, he 'fuckin starved', during the time in between Ennis and Lureen. The twilight zone, I'm sure.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #406 on: June 10, 2008, 08:49:25 PM »
That's where the comment about riding stock comes into play, perhaps. Money's a good point.

Offline fofol

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #407 on: June 11, 2008, 07:55:20 AM »

Marion and Dagonet:  Thank you, very much for your helpful commentary.  Much appreciated, Mike.

   Jo - Jack a hustler?  Yikes, I thought I went far afield on occasion!   8)
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Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #408 on: June 11, 2008, 08:06:44 AM »

Marion and Dagonet:  Thank you, very much for your helpful commentary.  Much appreciated, Mike.

   Jo - Jack a hustler?  Yikes, I thought I went far afield on occasion!   8)
Don't go too far afield on this one, Mike  ;) I just was just speculating. My point is it is doubtul he had a pot to pee in, let alone spend money. If anything, he was surviving on his wits, and it does not sound like it was a healthy situation for him.

Offline Dagonet

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #409 on: June 11, 2008, 10:22:36 AM »
-I have to agree. In fact, its entirely possible he did his own hustling here and there; I  don't think Jack was above that, to survive, and to escape lonliness.

<blink>  Now there's an interesting idea.  The thing is, though. . . would it even have occurred to Jack that people would pay to have sex with him?  Pre-Ennis, would he have believed himself "worth it"? 


He was simply not cut out to be by himself. It destroyed him in the end, just being without his one true love, as they say.

It destroyed both of them, I'd say.  It's just more obvious with Jack because his whole mental/emotional direction is outward:  he says what he thinks, shows what he feels, takes action to supply the human touch that's missing in his life, etc.  With Ennis (of whom there's not much left by the end of the story either), the damage (to himself, as opposed to his life) is almost completely internal. 


And I would not be suprised if he exchanged favors for belongings, poor as he was, he 'fuckin starved', during the time in between Ennis and Lureen. The twilight zone, I'm sure.

Or else "fuckin' starved" is a metaphor for the utter lack of the emotional contact Jack so desperately wanted; that there were no other men between Brokeback and the Reunion, and that even Lureen was a poor substitude at best.


Cheers,

Dagonet
"They ought to have met, if the gods had any kindness, any pity at all for them, in another world than this.  Not here.  For love was what it was, but it was not enough.  Not here."

--Guy Gavriel Kay, 'Tigana'

Offline fofol

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #410 on: June 11, 2008, 10:46:32 AM »
Jo - When I first saw the film, I was stunned - like being hit in the head with an axehandle.  There was nothing healthy about either of these guys' lives, yet I knew both of them, either from my own life or through observation, having worked my way through school in Oregon as a bartender in a gay bar.  The possibility exists certainly for JG's potential as a hustler, but I see far more of a chance of him making money legitimately than not - although this raises the question, which is more difficult riding bulls or riding men...?   ::)
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Offline Ellen (tellyouwhat)

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #411 on: June 11, 2008, 12:07:03 PM »
8 seconds per man is easier to achieve.  ;)

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Jack a hustler?  nah, I don't think so.
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Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #412 on: June 11, 2008, 06:13:50 PM »
-I have to agree. In fact, its entirely possible he did his own hustling here and there; I  don't think Jack was above that, to survive, and to escape lonliness.

<blink>  Now there's an interesting idea.  The thing is, though. . . would it even have occurred to Jack that people would pay to have sex with him?  Pre-Ennis, would he have believed himself "worth it"? 


Does your average cheap prostitute, male or female, feel they are "worth it"? I doubt it somehow. Most at that level don't have a great self-image.

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #413 on: June 11, 2008, 07:15:52 PM »
Jo - When I first saw the film, I was stunned - like being hit in the head with an axehandle.  There was nothing healthy about either of these guys' lives, yet I knew both of them, either from my own life or through observation, having worked my way through school in Oregon as a bartender in a gay bar.  The possibility exists certainly for JG's potential as a hustler, but I see far more of a chance of him making money legitimately than not - although this raises the question, which is more difficult riding bulls or riding men...?   ::)
I suppose some might be willing to see the metaphor mentioned somewhere above, that 'riding bulls' means the same-and he got paid for that. When he won, of course. Which is why he was starving in the literal sense.-Semi-competent, and all that.
I really don't think of him as of an inclination to sell himself-? I was just not inclined to think he paid for sex at that point; Later we are told he now had money and found ways to spend it. I'm guessing it started  much later, IMO. And he may indeed have been still a little green at that time...

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #414 on: June 11, 2008, 07:18:25 PM »
8 seconds per man is easier to achieve.  ;)

******

Jack a hustler?  nah, I don't think so.
Ennis never saw the point in though, of course.... ;D

Jack the Hustler. It doesn't really trip off the tongue, does it?  ;)

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #415 on: June 11, 2008, 07:20:12 PM »

Quote
Or else "fuckin' starved" is a metaphor for the utter lack of the emotional contact Jack so desperately wanted; that there were no other men between Brokeback and the Reunion, and that even Lureen was a poor substitude at best.

Dagonet, I'm not one to dispute a good metaphor-he sure was starved, in lots of ways.

Offline royandronnie

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #416 on: June 11, 2008, 09:46:46 PM »
I think we need to remember the times, too. The idea of Jack as hustler is provocative, but I don't think so either. I am certain in my own mind that the "riding more than bulls" refers to Jack lying about having had sex with other men. He does talk about borrowing everything but a toothbrush, and I wonder if some of his encounters might have started with his, ah, bumming a spur or sparkplug or something, and getting a vibe. Which would more amount to him paying for it than the reverse. I just see the idea being one he simply wouldn't have come up with, in those years.

Although it does give new meaning to "got out while I could still walk…" --Nah. Jack was starving, yes, for emotional contact, and that he did not find. But I think some of those lonely, horny, gay-or-not guys who couldn't afford prostitutes and couldn't get "good" girls were quite happy to do things with him just for sex.
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Offline fofol

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #417 on: June 12, 2008, 05:51:37 AM »
-I have to agree. In fact, its entirely possible he did his own hustling here and there; I  don't think Jack was above that, to survive, and to escape lonliness.

<blink>  Now there's an interesting idea.  The thing is, though. . . would it even have occurred to Jack that people would pay to have sex with him?  Pre-Ennis, would he have believed himself "worth it"? 


Does your average cheap prostitute, male or female, feel they are "worth it"? I doubt it somehow. Most at that level don't have a great self-image.


    Is it possible that in this instance "worth it" might refer to Jack's notion of whether or not paying customers would consider him worth paying for?  We're not talking Mr. Gyllenhall, obviously, but the Jack of the story.
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Offline fofol

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #418 on: June 12, 2008, 06:06:37 AM »
8 seconds per man is easier to achieve.  ;)

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Jack a hustler?  nah, I don't think so.

  Easier but no fun at all, and far less of an adventure...   roflmao
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Offline jwm

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #419 on: June 12, 2008, 11:59:17 AM »
Hi I have thought a lot about this story and I think that the whole relationship this amazing love story all branches out from their need for each other. Not just the sex, I think that was a bonus like I have said before, it is this over powering need they have for each others company. The freedom to talk about everything and nothing, or not at all. To sit around and drink with the one person that means more to you than life itself.
Jack goes with other men not so much for the sex, but with another man he can pretend that he is laying with Ennis, he can put an imaginary bag over the guys head and envision his lover.
The sex could be a grand and as real as he wanted it to be, he lived in his own fantasy world most of life. He could have the life he always wanted in his mind, and this person laying beside him filled one need the vessel to get his relief when he missed and needed Ennis so badly. He could get all the loving, all the hugging, all the snuggling and all the face to face stuff he dreamed and yearned for, all with his eyes closed but that is about as close as he ever would get all that he prayed for.
Ennis loved and wanted to be with Jack the one he loved. The one he could be himself with without judgement and a lot of forthought. He enjoyed the sex, sure enough but it was Jack himself that made Ennis do what he did, change his life, put everything he had in jeopardy just to spend some down time with Jack. He needed to rejuvenate and get his will to carry on with the life he was living. Jack was the only one that could do that for him and without Jack in his life there would be no Ennis. Sure he would have gone through life, but he now knows what happiness is and he needed it.