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Author Topic: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II  (Read 615972 times)

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #540 on: October 21, 2008, 01:23:15 PM »
He had Rich and Earl, but look what happened to them.   And the message is that that was very clearly because they were gay - no other reason.  So I don't see homophobia as being one of many issues which stand between Ennis and Jack and make a barrier to their love - it's THE issue.   The rest is incidental.  Fear of change, if it exists, could be overcome, unless you think their love just didn't make the grade.   

If you believe that Ennis was unaware/in denial on Brokeback (as I think you do), then Brokeback gives us a glimpse of what he was like without the homophobia.   It's there in the background, of course, influencing him and actually causing the denial.    But until the 'queer issue' comes up, he doesn't come across as outwardly fearful.   He's happy to change, and happy to break the rules, etc.

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #541 on: October 21, 2008, 02:01:06 PM »
That was why I said he could have done with some good role models other than Earl and Rich. Ennis didn't know of any happy successful settled gay men who had made it work, and at that time in Wyoming I don't expect there were many, it would be too risky for other men than Earl and Rich, and Jack and Ennis. In many parts it may still be to this day.
I do see homophobia as being one of many issues in the story. It is a major issue, but I also see Ennis as a man who would have curled up and died in the city, even if he had been with Jack. He would have lost the role that he spent all of his life trying to fit. It has to be remembered that he denied his love for Jack in order to try to live the life he thought a "cowboy," or rather a man in the mid west should live.
Keeping up that image was what lead to him and Jack not being able to be together.
Of course homophobia was part of that myth, but as I see it it is part of a complex social situation too.

The situation on Brokeback is seperate because there was no one there to see them. There was only Jack to impress, and Ennis certainly did that.
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Offline Sandy

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #542 on: October 21, 2008, 04:01:03 PM »
But is the reason he won't go to Mexico really because he doesn't like travelling?   He's been travelling all his life.   He travels to get work.   He travels to see Jack.   They travel over a good part of the state by the sounds of it.   Why not go somewhere warmer?   It's obvious that 'Mexico' means something different to Ennis - it's 'the place'.

Now Ennis may have had all sorts of aspects of his character, fears, attitudes, etc., which would get in the way of a relationship with Jack, but when it comes down do it do you really think a dislike of travelling was the reason he wouldn't go to Denver or Mexico?   If he got over the dislike of travelling, would he have gone to Mexico?   Or, the other way round - if he got over the homophobia, if he felt OK about their relationship, would he still not have been able to go to Denver because he didn't like travelling, even if it was the only way he could be with Jack?   In the end, you keep coming back to the fear and shame as the overriding factors which kept them apart.   

~snip~
Des,

I'm being a buttinsky here. Ennis did indeed travel, but it was in a loop we call Wyoming. And I wonder if he ever made it to the big town of Sheridan.  :) He literally circumscribed his own world, which appears to have excluded Colorado, South Dakota, Montana, etc., not to mention Mexico.

He justified his travel by going from one job to another and, perhaps, by seeing his kids. And all his vacations (never with Alma and the kids) were fishing trips within Wyoming.

To the extent that Ennis did anything, he appears not to have acted without some sort of justification. In many ways, he justified his stoic and self-imposed deprivation maybe in an attempt to live up to what he likely thought his father, brother and family expected of him. He was hemmed in psychologically as well as geographically, and wasn't going anywhere.

Sandy

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #543 on: October 21, 2008, 06:25:56 PM »
But all this is irrelevant to a certain degree. Once again, it matters not what they could do if they moved to a big city, or how they'd cope, or whether they were not much cop as rural workers. The real problem is that Ennis would not countenance such a move because that would entail living with a man and that would mean he's q****r.

So are you saying that there can be only one correct interpretation? That both explanations cannot apply to one and the same situation?


I'm saying that Ennis is a very layered character, even to himself. The obvious explanation is valid enough - he didn't have much going for him as a city dweller and would probably have disliked it, given his yearning for long-houred low-paid ranch work (although he could have commuted - Denver c.1967 wasn't exactly NYC), and if he'd taken the time to think about it, he might have said how he'd not fit city life. But the underneath layer is the homophobia.

So both explanations can be correct, and can apply, but one carries more weight than the other, given the setup of the story.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #544 on: October 21, 2008, 07:36:49 PM »

Mini, why so combative?

I think it's one of those irregular verbs: I am conversing, you are debating, she is being combative.  ;) :D

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In describing Ennis as an "island in the sea" I was using the name given him by the author Annie Proulx. It is a significant name when attached to the character that she created, as no doubt is the name "Twist" when attached to Jack, but it is Ennis we are discussing here.
In giving the name Ennis (Ynnis) del Mar to her character she was describing to us a person who was incapable of moving very far in many ways, both practically and emotionally.

This is the joy of giving characters meaningful names. If AP's major point with his name was to give him an aura of being unable to move, then she might easily have called him something like, say, Aaron Meadows, which would thus avoid the intrusion of ocean images which would appear to be discordant with the story's setting.

Ennis's name tells us far more than that he is unmoving (although I do agree that it is part of his nature. He moves, as I have said before, in big leaps followed by long periods where he settles and refuses to budge. Not sure how an island can move in big leaps  :D) His name ties in with a number of other themes, that of water-as-emotion, of loneliness and isolation, of the Aeneid imagery, etc.

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You seem to be suggesting that I have fabricated this notion based on his given name, but that is only part of the information we are given about him both in the narrative voice and in the characters own words.
I didn't feel that I would need to explain further to someone as well versed in the story as yourself, so I used just the name as a form of shorthand.
The further information comes in several ways, one is the song "Water Walking Jesus" which suggests that Jack must walk on water to get to Ennis, and is probably the only person who can. The next obvious one is Ennis own words " You know me Jack all the travelling I ever done was round the coffee pot looking for the handle."
There is also the complete stasis of the four years between the journey away from Brokeback and the reunion in which Ennis just sits tight and waits for Jack to find him.
There is the utter incredulity shown by Ennis at the suggestion of going to Mexico, and of course the impossibility of him imagining a life with Jack either in Denver or through a cow and calf operation.

Yes, this is a nice list and it certainly indicates that Ennis is, surprise surprise, a poor Wyoming ranch hand with limited possibilities for leisure activities or job opportunities. But given his limitations, why is it that he does not then take up Jack's suggestion of a C&C op? He could stay in his home range and never have to smell petrol fumes. But he doesn't, not because he's an island in the sea but because he's a homophobic gay man who's in love with another man but can't admit it to himself.

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Ennis is also unable to contemplate leaving ranching with its long hours and low pay to work for the power company. He would rather stick with what he knows.

Well, actually he DOES leave ranching and gets on the road crew. He gets back to ranching only after Alma leaves him. So he's capable of making a career change when he has to.

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As to lack of imagination, my reference was to the kind of imagination needed to envisage a life for him and Jack anywhere. He has no gay role models, he has nothing to base his dreams on, not from books or life experiences, other than one very bad one.
That is why he is stuck where he is.

But his imagination is not what's holding him back. If he could contemplate living with Jack then he might be able to imagine how it would work out. But he never gets past first base. He cannot allow himself to imagine such a life because that means he's queer. It always comes back to that.

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It is possible to restrict these characters to two dimensions, and to make the story purely about homophobia. It is not. They are well rounded three dimensional people who live on the page because the writer and her vision were greater than that.

I assume this is just a dig. As you well know, I see them as 3D characters. The story is not purely about homophobia, but I'd draw your attention to this passage from AP's recent interview:


The story, says Proulx, spine straight, hands slapping her knees for
emphasis, "was about homophobia in a place."


Homophobia is not just the background noise; it is an integral part of the story. Ennis's homophobia is what warps an otherwise touching love story into a tale of tragic consequences.

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #545 on: October 21, 2008, 07:50:42 PM »

I'm being a buttinsky here. Ennis did indeed travel, but it was in a loop we call Wyoming. And I wonder if he ever made it to the big town of Sheridan.  :) He literally circumscribed his own world, which appears to have excluded Colorado, South Dakota, Montana, etc., not to mention Mexico.


Actually, some of those mountain ranges jut into adjoining states. But you can't forget that Ennis was a ranch hand with financial responsibilities and very little time off. Realistically, he is not going to head off to Las Vegas for the weekend or spend a month in Hawaii. He's a guy with a truck and a couple of horses on the back and a week off here and there and very little money to spend. What is he going to do? He's already set his parameters in the motel - meeting now and again way the hell, etc. This isn't about lack of imagination or fear of flying or whatever; it's about doing what he must do, i.e. meeting Jack, but in a place where he could do it without fear of discover, and in conditions which recreated those on the mountain thus perpetuating the "straight friends" illusion.

The laundry list of mountain ranges tells me more about the desire to recreate BBM without ever actually chancing the real thing again, than it does about Ennis's inability to step outside his comfort zone. The motel and the cabin tell me he COULD step outside in unusual circumstances.

Desecra

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #546 on: October 21, 2008, 11:46:59 PM »
Denver doesn't appear to me to be that far from Wyoming - if somebody could travel all round Wyoming, then surely they could consider Denver?  I'm sure that there ARE people who wouldn't travel outside their own state, even for a once in a lifetime love, but I don't think we're told that Ennis is one of them.   When Jack suggests living together, Ennis doesn't ask anything about the location - that's not the issue.   Then when Jack mentions Denver, he dismisses it - why?   What reason has he got to think Ennis wouldn't travel?  When Ennis refuses to go to Mexico then accuses Jack of going, is he really talking about Jack travelling too far?

Lots of love stories are about love set up against one particular obstacle or barrier.   We don't need to know that Romeo and Juliet would never have made it anyway because Romeo was scared of commitment and Juliet was excessively jealous.   Characters can be well rounded enough without having a series of other obstacles to their love.   But if you really believe they wouldn't have made it anyway, even if you could take away the homophobia, then what's the point of the story?   They were just a mismatched couple, with too many reasons to not be together, and a love which couldn't endure minor setbacks.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 01:01:31 AM by Desecra »

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #547 on: October 22, 2008, 12:49:24 AM »


The story, says Proulx, spine straight, hands slapping her knees for
emphasis, "was about homophobia in a place."



I don't think I at any place or any time ever said that it wasn't.
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Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #548 on: October 22, 2008, 05:10:49 AM »
I do feel, however, Janjo, that homophobia as a major shaper of the story is pushed further into the background by you than by me. It's the basis for what goes wrong, not just the scenery against which the story is played out.

To suggest that it plays a major part, that it drives the tragedy by warping J&E's actions, etc. is not to reduce them to 2D characters. Whenever the homophobia at the heart of the story is mentioned, this accusation about 2D characters is bound to follow eventually.

As Des said above, they don't need extra major barriers to their love.

Offline Paul029

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #549 on: October 22, 2008, 06:29:27 AM »
My point, and I think Annie Proulx got there far ahead of me, is that Ennis del Mar, means "island in the sea."
Hi janjo : Not sure where I saw a reference to "Ynnis," [i.e. "Ennis"] but would love to ask: Is it related to "Ynnesuittron"?

Please say yes...
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Offline Sandy

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #550 on: October 22, 2008, 08:41:46 AM »
But all this is irrelevant to a certain degree. Once again, it matters not what they could do if they moved to a big city, or how they'd cope, or whether they were not much cop as rural workers. The real problem is that Ennis would not countenance such a move because that would entail living with a man and that would mean he's q****r.

So are you saying that there can be only one correct interpretation? That both explanations cannot apply to one and the same situation?


I'm saying that Ennis is a very layered character, even to himself. The obvious explanation is valid enough - he didn't have much going for him as a city dweller and would probably have disliked it, given his yearning for long-houred low-paid ranch work (although he could have commuted - Denver c.1967 wasn't exactly NYC), and if he'd taken the time to think about it, he might have said how he'd not fit city life. But the underneath layer is the homophobia.

So both explanations can be correct, and can apply, but one carries more weight than the other, given the setup of the story.

I'm not persuaded that the structure of the story privileges one explanation over the other. I think it explicitly allows for both, and requires both. The fact that Ennis might even have the slightest inkling that there are alternatives to the Rich and Earl scenario is, I think, needed to let us know that deep down, he realizes there are choices, and that he's chosing one path. If there were no awareness whatsoever of that alternative, then he would be just the product of his environment, with no potential to look beyond it. He would be more like an animal in a habitat than a man in a world. It's like the tension between the tire rim and the tire iron, which is needed to represent Ennis' doubts about something he can never know for sure.

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #551 on: October 22, 2008, 11:35:15 AM »
My point, and I think Annie Proulx got there far ahead of me, is that Ennis del Mar, means "island in the sea."
Hi janjo : Not sure where I saw a reference to "Ynnis," [i.e. "Ennis"] but would love to ask: Is it related to "Ynnesuittron"?

Please say yes...

Sorry Paul, I don't get that, am I being particularly thick?

Ynnis is Welsh for island as in Ynnis Mon for Angelsey, in Irish it is Innis, and there is a town in Ireland called Ennis.
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Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #552 on: October 22, 2008, 03:47:12 PM »
Brought over from Last Scene: Jack & Ennis Together thread.

I'm saying that it must have felt necessary for them to say it at some point, just to clear up any er..............misunderstandings! :D

I really am struggling with this. If they are both gay but pretending to be straight because they have been brought up to believe that it is a bad thing, then the idyll is based on a total falsehood, shored up by the INNQ statement. Then if they spend sixteen years trying to recapture that rapturous state, they are in fact trying to recapture a lie. But during the sixteen years they are still acting out the straight lie anyway. So are they trying to recapture a state of total ignorance?

When you watch Brokeback Mountain, are you able to suspend disbelief enough to go along with the story and enjoy it, or are you sitting there knowing that it is a peice of industrial cinema made by a big company, employing many hundreds of people in order to make money?
There are two ways of looking at all sorts of situations.
Jack and Ennis were able to be above the world, flying in the bitter euphoric air. Disbelief suspended.

Okay, janjo, the questions I was asking were prompted by your explanation about the INNQ comment. I was trying to ascertain how you saw it fitting in with what they were doing.

"Suspending disbelief" is an interesting phrase. Of course I suspend disbelief when watching movies, so long as they are good enough to overcome the barrier. BBM was one such film: when I watch it I am utterly transported. Same with the story: Jack and Ennis are real flesh and blood people to me.

But how do you see them suspending disbelief when on the mountain? (Let's stick with Ennis a while.) Is he suspending the disbelief that two straight men can have sex without trespassing into queer territory? What does he actually believe? (That's easier - too many negatives get confusing.) Does he believe that he is straight? If so, why does he feel the need to make the INNQ statement? Does that not cut through the wall of disbelief?

And if they are suspending disbelief, then what are they trying to recapture every time they go on a fishing trip?

Offline Ministering angel

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #553 on: October 22, 2008, 03:54:07 PM »
My point, and I think Annie Proulx got there far ahead of me, is that Ennis del Mar, means "island in the sea."
Hi janjo : Not sure where I saw a reference to "Ynnis," [i.e. "Ennis"] but would love to ask: Is it related to "Ynnesuittron"?

Please say yes...

Paul, if you read the Symbolism & Imagery thread you will find all manner of opinions about Ennis's name, about the idea of shepherd idylls, about a heap of other stuff that might make your head spin. A few of us believe that much information is tucked away in the layers of symbolism which Annie Proulx has woven into the story. The film also contained lots of symbolism. One small example, since I'm off topic, is Mrs Twist's clothing - a blue cardigan (like Jack's shirt) over a plaid shirt (like Ennis's shirt) over a dress patterned with roses. The roses are a constant theme throughout the film, and the cardi and shirt combination indicates that Mrs Twist was fully aware of the shirts in Jack's room, just in case we needed telling.

Offline janjo

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Re: Ennis' and Jack's Relationship, II
« Reply #554 on: October 22, 2008, 04:02:43 PM »
Ennis and Jack are just happy, in love, even if they wouldn't call it that, enjoying each others bodies, and having a wonderful time in innocence and purity. They are not rationalizing at all. They are above the world, above mundane affairs, that is the direct interpretation of the Greek idylls. A place where men are free of censure and can love in a natural and beautiful way, as part of the natural world.
Shepherds in Arcadia.
It may not be realistic, disbelief may have to be suspended, but that is how idylls work.
What are they trying to recreate?
The innocence that they knew then,
It can't be done.
They know now, and what is known can't be unknown.
That is why the punch is so important.
The moment of revelation which once experienced can never be unknown, no matter how hard one tries to deny it, and my didn't Ennis try!
Brokeback short stories at storybyjanjo.livejournal.com

"Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?"
Ballad in plain D: Bob Dylan