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In past Topics, we've discussed the 4 main characters, Ennis, Jack, Alma and Lureen. We've also discussed the actors that portrayed those roles.
This week, we'll focus on the "supporting" cast of the movie. Feel free to discuss the charactres of Alma Jr., Randall, Cassie, Monroe, Aguirre, Ma & Pa Twist, LaShawn, as well as the actors/actresses that played those roles. What did you think of those performances? What scenes that they were in stick out in your mind? Do you think they added to the movie? Were there any characters that you felt didn't need to be in the movie? Why not?
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Ennis: "You wanna watch it there. That horse has a low startle point."
Jack: "Doubt there's a filly that could throw me."
This scene plays out with Jack trying to control the horse. We see later in the movie Jack trying to control the horse before riding off, and looking at Ennis....Ennis later leans back and watches Jack ride off.
Do you think that Jack specifically picked the horse that was harder to control, as a way to impress Ennis? Do you think this reflected Jack's way of life in picking difficult situations? Would you say that Ennis also had a low startle point, and Jack was attracted to this?
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In August Ennis spent a whole night with Jack in the main camp and in a blowy hailstorm the sheep took off west and got among of herd in another allotment. There was a damn miserable time for five days, Ennis and a Chilean herder with no English trying to sort them out, the task almost impossible as the paint brands were worn and faint this late season. Even when the numbers were right Ennis knew the sheep were mixed. In a disquieting way everything seemed mixed.
<snip>
Joe Aguirre paid them, said little. He had looked at the milling ship with a sour expression, said, "Some a these never went up there with you." The count was not what he had hoped for either. Ranch stiffs never did much of a job.
If Ennis felt that "everything" was mixed, what are some of the other things he felt were mixed? If the count was right, why was Aguirre unhappy with it?
While the quote above is from the short story, please feel free to discuss the movie scenes for this topic, or compare/contrast the movie & SS.
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During an interview that Heath had while discussing Brokeback and deleted scenes, he said this:
"I feel that what he has left out should stay out, and I don't think he left out much."
Heath then goes on to discuss the "hippie scene" and how he (and pretty much everyone) felt it didn't fit within the film. We also know of other scenes that were cut: Jack giving Ennis an expensive rifle, Ennis working on the ranch, Ennis at the Twist family plot.
Are there any scenes that are in the short story that you would have liked to see in the movie? Are there any scenes from the movie that you feel don't work, and should've been removed? Are there any deleted scenes we know about that you would've liked to have seen remain in the movie?
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Annie Proulx wrote an article regarding the contrast between historical cowboys, and the myths about cowboy life that exist in popular culture. It begins with this paragraph:
The heroic myth of the American west is much more powerful than its historical past. To this day, the great false beliefs about cowboys prevail: that they were - and are - brave, generous, unselfish men; that the west was "won" by noble white American pioneers and staunch American soldiers fighting the red Indian foe; that frontier justice was rough but fair; and that everything in the natural world from the west bank of the Missouri to the Pacific Ocean was there to be used by human beings to further their wealth. These absurd but solidly rooted fantasies cannot be pulled up. People believe in and identify themselves with these myths and will scratch and kick to maintain their western self-image. The rest of the country and the world believes in the heroic myth because the tourism bureaux will never let anyone forget it.
Brokeback Mountain met resistance and criticism because of the "love" of the cowboy stereotypes. Do you think that if the general public was familiar with "cowboy facts" the resistance would have been lessened in any way? When studying the characters of Jack & Ennis, do you see any of the "idealized" images and beliefs there, or are they more rooted in the facts of what ranch/cowboy life was about?
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In various topics here, we've discussed Destructive Rural Homophobia (DHR), as that was a term that Annie Proulx used to describe what Brokeback Mountain was about.
Do you feel that the story would've been different if Jack & Ennis lived in more urban areas? Today city areas are viewed as more "cosmopolitan" and "open-minded", but could the same be said of cities in the timeframe that the story is set? Do you think that Jack & Ennis would still be subjected to homophobia in a city setting? Would this type of situation (Jack & Ennis living in cities but still being ranchers) even be believeable?
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Let's talk about "stereotypical" behaviors. Throughout the years on this forum, there was talk that one of the reasons Brokeback was different was the fact that Jack & Ennis didn't have any "stereotypical gay" behaviors. That being said, do you think that perhaps the movie went out of its way to give Jack and/or Ennis some behaviors that were "stereotypical straight male" behaviors? Were there any scenes that you felt suggested perhaps some "stereotypical gay" behaviors?
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In past weeks, we've talked about Annie Proulx and her comments about Destructive Rural Homophobia. Is there a difference between AP's destructive rural homophobia and destructive metropolitan homophobia or homophobia in general? Is there such a thing as CONstructive homophobia? Is adding any adjective to "homophobia" simply redundant like "yellow jaundice?"
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In the short story, Annie writes about Jack's memory of the dozy embrace as: the “single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives” it was the time that Ennis comes up behind Jack, pulls him close, and holds him, “the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger”. What is this hunger? If it is sexless, why is neither man successful in satisfying this hunger in any other relationship?
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Once Ennis and Jack meet again, four years after their time on Brokeback Mountain, what expectations does each man have of the relationslhip? What does Jack want? What does Ennis offer? Was there any way to compromise between the differences of what they thought was possible? Which man do you think is the more courageous, the more honest, the more realistic, or the more committed?
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171
During the movie, Jack speaks of his family more often than Ennis. Jack mentions his father's rodeo competitions, where they lived in Lightning Flat, the family ranch, how his mother believes in The Pentecost. He even goes on to talk about how he and his father don't get along, wouldn't share rodeo secrets, things of that nature. Ennis mentions his family very briefly, that his parents ran themselves off and he was raised by his brother and sister, and then later how his dad took he and his brother to see Earl. Other than the "run themselves off" comment, he never mentions his mother.
Why do you think Jack was more open to discuss family matters than Ennis? When Ennis says there was "no room for me" in the movie after his sister got married, do you think that was an idea he got on his own, or was he asked to leave? In a past discussion we talked about Old Man Twist and Old Man Del Mar being homophobic, is it possible Ennis' entire family was?
*Side note - even though the relationships with the fathers was discussed in a past TOTW, since this discussion focuses on the family, feel free to revisit that topic as well. Also, any scenes/themes in the short story that pertain to this topic (such as the violence between KE and Ennis) may be discussed as well.*
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When Ennis and Jack first start to herd the sheep up the mountain on horseback Jack was holding a baby lamb in his arms. Ennis wrapped up his lamb in a blanket and it rode on the side of the horse. We also see Jack tending to a sheep, and later sleeping with a dog nearby. Do you think this was used as a way to show that Jack wore his emotions out in the open and was more willing to express them, while Ennis buried them inside? Do you think there was a difference between SS Ennis and movie Ennis in this respect?
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In past topics we've discussed the women of Brokeack, in very specific ways. This week's discussion, let's be a little more general. Did you find the female characters in the move behaved in stereotypical ways, given the time frame of the movie? Do you feel that perhaps the women were more "advanced" in their behaviors? Did the older women (Ma Twist, Fayette Newsome) seem more stereotypical than the younger set (Lureen, Alma, Cassie)? Did any of the behaviors that you witnessed seem "out of time" or "out of place" for the setting of the movie?
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I found this paragraph online:
Ennis and Jack are complementary: Ennis the taciturn loner, Jack the performer who needs an audience; Ennis the hand-to-mouth earner, Jack the man who has married into money; Ennis the stoic who grits his teeth and bears his life, Jack the proponent of change. Yet for all his bravado and planning, Jack never seems to get what he wants. His father shrugs that most of his son’s ideas “never come to pass,” and Jack himself says, “Nothin never come to my hand the right way.” When he tells Ennis his plan for them to run a ranch together, it doesn’t occur to him how detached from reality his fantasy truly is, how impossible or ill-advised it would be to implement it. This divide between fantasy and reality drives the two men apart over the years, and Jack ultimately pays a steep price for his dreams.
Do you think that Jack can actually be called a "proponent of change" if he wasn't able to change anything in the story? He couldn't get Ennis to commit to a "sweet life", he couldn't get his father's attitude about sharing his bull-riding secrets to change, nothing came to him the right way, his ideas never came to pass. Is there any way that Jack could be seen as a "proponent of change" if his attempts constantly failed?
Do you agree with the last sentence in the statement above? Was it Jack's inability to see "reality" what drove he and Ennis apart? Or do you think that it was Jack's hope in his "fantasy" as what helped him to stay with Ennis for so long?
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I found this quote in the same website from last week's question:
Indeed, the main tension of “Brokeback Mountain” derives from the pull of external, contextual forces on the two main characters, who are trapped in their circumstances like flies in a spider web. In another time, in another place, perhaps, Jack and Ennis could be happy together—but not in 1963 Wyoming.
Do you believe that in another time or place that Jack & Ennis could be happy? Do you believe if the characters were unchanged, would Jack have been able to convice Ennis on the "sweet life" if it was a different year? Do you think with Ennis' mental make-up, he still would not have been able to be with Jack?
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"You been to Mexico Jack Twist? 'Cause I heard what they got in Mexico for boys like you."
How did Ennis know what was going on in Mexico? If he worked on isolated ranches in Wyoming, how did he hear about gay men going to Mexico? Is it possible that Ennis began to "explore" and see what options there were out there? Is it possible that Ennis knew other gay men who told him, or perhaps he overheard?
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The poster from Brokeback bears the tagline "Love Is a Force of Nature." On the website where I've found some Brokeback discussion I found this comment:
"The idea of two male ranch hands falling in love in conservative 1960s Wyoming epitomizes the suggestion that love, a natural force, persists against all odds."
http://www.sparknotes.com/short-stories/brokeback-mountain/themes.htmlDoes their love persist against all odds? Is it realistic to say that Jack & Ennis loved each other? While their relationship lasted twenty years, it wasn't 20 years of togetherness, they spent much of their time apart, waiting to be together again for very brief periods. Do you find it interesting that the only time "love" comes up in discussion is between Ennis & Alma Jr. at the end of the movie when Ennis asks her if Kurt loves her?
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Why did Jack send that first card to Ennis, and why did he wait 4 years to send it? Do you think the responsibility of being a husband and father weighed on him, and was the spark that caused him to send it? Ennis' reply was a simple "You Bet", following the pattern of "not saying much." Given Ennis reluctance to communicate, why did he send Jack the postcard about the divorce? Was Jack's response (driving out to the ranch) over the top? Do you think that Jack always misread Ennis' communications and behaviors? Do you think that Ennis mislead Jack at times?
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Throughout the movie we see Ennis acting in what could be considered stereotypically masculine ways. He's quicker to raise is voice to argue, quicker to result to violence, will make threats. He also appears to drink more than Jack.
Do you feel this was a result of how he was raised, or do you think on some level that he understands that he is different, and then tries to compensate for this by lashing out?
Jack doesn't seem to have these same behaviors, do you feel that Jack has a bigger level of acceptance of who he is?
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This is an excerpt taken from an interview that Annie Proulx gave to the Jackson Hole Weekly:
"How different readers take the story is a reflection of their own personal values, attitudes, hang-ups.
It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her
life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts."
Do you agree with this statement? If so, do you recall how you "finished" Brokeback Mountain? Looking back on how the story/movie affected you, can you clearly see how your own views or thoughts may have affected your understanding of the short story and/or movie? In times that you've re-read the story or subsequent viewings of the movie, has your view changed in any way? If you had shared the story with someone, or saw the movie with another person, was their viewpoint different from yours and did that surprise you?
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Is it possible that the homophobia had an positive aspects on Jack & Ennis? Did homophobia strengthen Ennis and Jack's relationship in any ways? Did they put up with things in their relationship because they may have seen themselves as two together against a World filled with homophobia?
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Homosexuality in "Brokeback Mountain" is always associated with a river: It's a great torrent of nature, which cannot be controlled and which provides sustenance, nurture, satisfaction, joy. The happiest image in the film, and the most poignant, is Ennis and Jack, off by their lonesome, pulling off their clothes and leaping off a cliff into the placid, welcoming waters below. Realistically, it's a river; metaphorically, it's the great river of homosexuality, and safe and free immersion in it is utterly joyful to them. Indeed, most of the two men's squabbling and (mostly off-camera) lovemaking takes place next to a river. It's glimpsed in many of the backgrounds, usually a turmoil of frothing white water to signify the rush and power of their love and lust for each other. Sometimes it's calming, it's always there for them, and they suffer at their imposed distance from it.
*******
The above quote comes from a Washington Post review of 2006 (link to follow). To you agree with the journalist that this is the happiest image in the film? The most poignant? If not, what scenes do you think qualify? In past topics we've mentioned other descriptions or nature themes in the story, but I don't recall discussing rivers. Did anyone else notice the frequency of the appearance of rivers? Did you believe they represented the "great river of homosexuality" as the journalist describes?
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From Dec 2005 through April 2012 we've been heaping praise & love on what we've come to call "our film". That being said, there have been times we've discussed negative things said/written about Brokeback.
Today I've found a review that says some negative things about Brokeback. Read them with an open mind, and express your opinions on this assessment. Do you feel the comments are completely off base? Is there some validity to what is being said? Do you completely disagree? Remember to keep your emotions/passions in check, and give a reasonable response.
*please note, the article does say positive things about Brokeback as a film as well, for the purpose of this discussion, I've omitted them. I will provide a link to the complete review so you can read it for yourself.*
"Brokeback Mountain" sets out to be an epic love story, but the romance is weighed down by the burden of covering a twenty-year time span. It's a heavy task for any filmmaker: to cover so much story, the necessary marriages, births, and necessary heartrending death, all the while asking your stars to age on screen. Appropriate make-up is applied, hair thinned and turned gray, slim bodies made to appear paunchy. The effect, unfortunately, is one hundred percent false. Gyllenhaal simply is not convincing as a middle-aged, hen-pecked cowboy. He acts so hard, he practically screams: I am playing a challenging part. Ledger, who talks less throughout the film, makes out better.
Like the lovers, the film never regains the heart and simplicity of young Jack and Ennis on their mountain. Once they come down, their real (meaning straight) lives begin. Ennis marries his childhood sweetheart Alma (Michelle Williams, who is wasted in the role of the suffering wife.) Jack marries a sexy young rodeo girl (Anne Hathaway, who has her own problems, including big blond hair.) Because both husbands are closeted gay men, neither marriage works. They go through the motions of a heterosexual lifestyle, raising children and working jobs they do not care for. The subject is certainly moving enough; their plight is sympathetic, but unfortunately, the love story is not. The men meet for intermittent fishing trips over the years. For the most part, the audience is subject to petty and not so petty fighting: between the married spouses and also between Jack and Ennis. "Brokeback Mountain" becomes tedious and trying. The wives want escape, the husbands desperately yearn for it, and after one hundred and thirty four minutes of poetic beauty and longing, so did I.
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When Brokeback was first released, there were a lot of varied reactions to it. There was praise, criticism, and emotional responses to the film. There were also times the film was accused of being "Homosexual Propaganda" for the gay rights movement. I've found online two articles with opposing viewpoints, one that strongly accuses the film of the propaganda slant, and a second that appears to take the opposite view point. Here are excerpts, with links to the articles below them.
Indeed nature is beautiful, and its grandeur is depicted with majesty and uplifting music, great sweeping vistas instill a sense of awe and splendor. It is of course in this setting that the "homosexual romance" blossoms. But even more significant, this is where the men discuss the deeper things of life, theology, meaning, etc.
Contrast this with the scenes of marriage. Every time marriage is depicted in the film, it is shot in a tiny dark squalid hovel, with screaming children and absolute pandemonium. The house is a mess, the wife never communicates on any kind of meaningful level. Wives in fact, are portrayed as a constant annoyance, and more irritating than understanding. But children receive the worst treatment in this slanted rant against family. They are usually crying, often two at a time, or smashing things, the general feeling the film presents, is that these joyless hellions are an intrusion into life, an encumbrance and a terrible burden.
Brokeback Mountain - Understanding Propaganda
Some have found it easy to quickly dismiss the movie, crying foul over anti-family values and homosexual agendas. And many will simply not see it at all, regardless of the press it’s received, both good and bad. At this point it has won four Golden Globe awards—a fact that, to me at least, says the film is at least worth taking a look at.
I did see the movie. I come from a perspective of believing that God shows up in the most extraordinary places, and I believe he’s shown up in this movie. I will say, however, that the film did make me feel uncomfortable at times, as it does deal with controversial subjects. It is a period piece that deals with extremely contemporary issues.
Finding God On Brokeback Mountain
Were you surprised an the accusation of Brokeback being a propaganda film? Did you feel at any time that Brokeback tried to push a "gay agenda" at anyone at all? Were you ever confronted by someone who put that idea to you? Do you believe that God can be found on Brokeback? Do you think there was any positive experiences regarding religion in Brokeback?
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Stanley Fish is an American literary theorist and legal scholar, and the author of 12 books.
In Stanley Fish's "How To Write a Sentence," he says this of first sentences: "First sentences know all about the sentences that will follow them and are in a sense last sentences." "There can be no formula for writing a first sentence, for the promise it holds out is unique to the imagined world it introduces, and of imagined worlds there is no end."
The first sentence of Brokeback Mountain is: "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames."
Do you think this works as an opening sentence? Does it "hook" you and make you want to read the story? Do you think other sentences (last sentence) are just as important? How do you feel about the story's ending? "There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it." How do you feel that compares to the movie's last line, "Jack I swear."?
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