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Author Topic: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014  (Read 773433 times)

Offline killersmom

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #315 on: August 28, 2013, 12:06:18 AM »
Just remember when you are posting here that you are just writing words. No one can hear the inflections of your words, see your facial expressions, or the tone of your voice. What you post here are your thoughts in words, and it isn't like you are sitting across from someone at a coffee shop.

I say this because none of us can interpret, just by the words written here, how someone is presenting their thoughts and opinions because we are not hearing or seeing them, we are just reading words on a screen. We cannot assume or interpret that they are being judgmental, angry, sarcastic, or any of the emotions we see and hear when we are sitting across from someone.

Remember this when you are posting here.
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Offline oilgun

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #316 on: August 28, 2013, 06:46:08 PM »
So, about the Syria thing...

I'm not convinced that there is irrefutable proof that Assad was responsible for the chemical attack.  Bush Obama's explanation was not very convincing. I'm glad to see that a majority of Americans are not convinced either.  I guess when you are lied to time after time by the government & media, after a while you stop believing them.  A lot of Syrians also have doubts about Assad being responsible considering that the attack happened in an area that the government controlled with, I understand, people who are mostly pro-Assad.  He would have nothing to gain by gassing supporters.  I think there is more evidence that the NATO & US backed rebels were responsible. The false flag attack provides the perfect reason for the West to invade/attack the country which would force Iran to get involved which would then give the US a reason to attack/invade THAT country as well. Oh and the chemical weapons were probably supplied by the U.S. via Qatar. I mean the U.S supplied Iraq with chemical weapons during the Iraq/Iran war.  I also saw a video where a four star general claims that months afters 9/11 the U.S had a plan to invade not only Iraq, but other middle eastern countries, including Syria & Iran,  (I'll try to find the link). It's a sad state of affairs. My two cents. 

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #317 on: August 28, 2013, 06:58:20 PM »
So, about the Syria thing...
Oh and the chemical weapons were probably supplied by the U.S.

Another one of your sleazy slanders.

But, oh, how clever you are! You can't prove it, and by throwing in that "probably" you don't have to.

 ::)

Offline doodler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #318 on: August 28, 2013, 08:12:17 PM »
So, about the Syria thing...

No coffee shop need, no equivocation...
the US should stay out of Syria. Period.
It doesn't matter to me which side gassed those people. It is an internal problem and ABSOLUTELY none of our business.
Barring a direct attack by Syria on US soil, we should not get involved.
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Offline oilgun

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #319 on: August 28, 2013, 08:33:21 PM »
Another one of your sleazy slanders.

But, oh, how clever you are! You can't prove it, and by throwing in that "probably" you don't have to.

 ::)

The west can't prove Assad was responsible, so shouldn't accusing him be considered slander as well?
"Yer fond of me lobster aint' ye? I seen it - yer fond of me lobster! Say it! Say it. Say it!" - The Lighthouse.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #320 on: August 28, 2013, 09:30:30 PM »
The west can't prove Assad was responsible, so shouldn't accusing him be considered slander as well?

I don't give a rat's ass what anyone says about Assad.

Offline doodler

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #321 on: August 28, 2013, 09:39:35 PM »
I have yet to speak with anyone who does care about Assad. Or Syria. Or any possible lies our government is telling us.
If those 12 Arab nations are so concerned about what's going on in their neighborhood, they should handle it.
In 2010, 606 people (all ages) were accidentally killed by guns.
Almost 3000 teens (15-19) die in traffic accidents a year.
1100 kids under 19 drown each year.
44 kids under 5 died of heat stroke in hot cars in 2013.
HIGH school sports account for 1.2 million trips to the ER annually.

Offline janjo

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #322 on: August 29, 2013, 05:11:59 AM »
The MP's here have all been recalled from their summer holidays for a debate in the House of Commons this afternoon, 2.30 to decide what to do about Syria. There doesn't seem to be much support for a military strike, and Mr Cameron looked worried!
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Offline Paul029

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #323 on: August 29, 2013, 06:23:18 AM »
Lyle, I’ve been trying to sort out the threads of our recent discussion, and I’d now like to look at some of the issues you mentioned and along the way, clarify a few points of mine which might have been less than clear.

The issue I initially raised related to Jenkins’ comments about David Miranda’s detention at Heathrow, which he described as “the sort of treatment western politicians love to deplore in Putin’s Russia or Ahmadinejad's Iran.”

The thrust of his article was that even though Greenwald is not known to have commited any offence in reporting Snowden’s NSA material for The Guardian, Miranda’s offence, under the UK 2000 Terrorism Act, was that he was Greenwald’s partner and so Jenkins asked whether journalism was now to be seen “as a terrorist occupation.”

We moved from this to the issue of “newsworthiness” and I’d like to now revisit some of your posts and make some further comments.

Journalism cannot be a buzzword to do anything one wants.
If Person A steals something and Person B receives the stolen item.
Person B cannot go about claiming that he has a right to sell it because he's a journalist.

If Snowden stole KFC's secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices and gave it to
Greenwald, does Greenwald have a right to publish it?

If I wanted to know the exact vote totals for the year BBM was up for Best Picture
and I somehow had access to that information, even though I signed agreements
not to disclose the information, but I did to a journalist, I would not expect to be
without consequences even though there are many people who'd like to know that
information.

I think there are some issues here which I could have addressed before I responded to your points about KFC’s culinary recipes and AMPAS votes.

  First, the idea that being a journalist entitles someone to “do anything they want” surely depends upon whether or not what they did conformed to what’s described as “news” otherwise, I feel, there’d be little point in being a journalist.

In the 1960s the Norwegian media researchers Johan Galtung and Mari Ruge analysed international news stories to find out what factors they had in common, and what factors placed them at the top of the news agenda worldwide.
They came up with a seminal list of twelve criteria or factors which defined “newsworthiness,” all of which had to be present to “heighten the probability that a given event would become news.
Three of these were the criteria of “Threshhold” (which an event had to reach before it became news), “Intensity/Absolute Intensity” (e.g. the more violent the murder, the bigger the headlines) and “Uniqueness” (e.g. any story which covers a unique or unusual event).

More recent scholarship (McGregor, J., Restating News Values, UNZ, 2002) suggests that three new criteria be incorporated:

   - Visualness (e.g. A bias towards a good picture on TV as opposed to a worthy story, the hypothesis being that an earthquake killing 1000 people in remote Siberia will be not covered as well as an earthquake killing ten people in London, unless by some chance the Siberian disaster was captured in film or a survivor had access to a television studio);

   - Emotion (e.g. Some forms of news, particularly television magazine news, have mutated into a passing parade of “tear jerker” stories that are variations on the theme of grief); and,

   - Conflict, for without a conflict format the event cannot be news (e.g. Political and controversial events are driven by a conflict format in which there is little ambiguity in the opposing positions being represented; if ambiguity arises the otherwise potential story will become too complex to be news).


   Next, you said that “Person B cannot go about claiming that he has a right to sell [stolen information] because he's a journalist.

Well, I disagree with you there, Lyle. It’s precisely because Person B is a journalist that he can publicise that information—if it satisfies the definition of “news.”

(Although I admit I’m a little confused by your reference to Person B “selling” the information; is that what you think Glenn Greenwald did?)


   I’d now like to take a fresh look at your two scenarios.

The first one is unusual because although it supposes a situation in which someone stole something and then gave it to someone else to publish, the two people you named
not only exist but actually did these things in real life (except that the information involved wasn't that of your scenario), so the question’s answer is obvious:
“Yes, as a journalist he (Greenwald) did have the right to publish it (but only if he thought it was newsworthy, which he did).”

The second one, though, is more effective because it involves (presumably) an actual hypothetical situation, one in which the consequences of certain actions for the persons involved (the breaking of a confidentiality agreement, the theft of AMPAS voting secrets and the publication of those secrets) are to be considered. The answer in this case would also be “Yes, they could expect consequences.”


All of that said, I’m unsure how your points related to the treatment David Miranda received because he was Glenn Greenwald’s partner.

Sorry, mate.  :)



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Offline malachite45

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #324 on: August 29, 2013, 06:23:55 AM »
I bet nobody's even considered that this is the perfect scenario to lure the US and its allies into yet another unwinnable conflict on Arab soil. What better way to further weaken your enemies and draw more support from radicalized supporters than this. Splitting the U.N's a bonus.  I should think Al Qaeda must be delighted they all fell for it.
Nobody with any sense would get dragged into this in a million years. It absolutely stinks.

Offline Paul029

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #325 on: August 29, 2013, 06:26:50 AM »
 
When I said that "I doubt that the examples you mention would satisfy the criterion of “overriding public need” in order to warrant publication," you replied:
Oh, so there's certain criteria for journalists and whistleblower's to consider?

My examples were unworthy of this criteria and deserve dismissal, even though
the ethical principles are the same.  I see.  It has to be "worth it" in some way.

Firstly, Lyle, you didn’t actually ask me about whistleblowers—only journalists—and I answered accordingly.

My comment was in reference to the intrinsic value of your revealed “secrets” and not to the way in which they had been obtained.

In my mind there’s no comparison between your scenarios’ secrets and those to do with covert NSA/governmental surveillance of US and overseas citizens.
The ethical principles involved in the acquistion and publication of culinary recipes and AMPAS votes might indeed be the same as those underlying the acquisition and publication of NSA material, but all information is not equally ”newsworthy.”

But yes, in the end it has to be “worth it.”

Incidentally I didn’t “dismiss” your examples as being “unworthy” ... as I said, some supermarket tabloid would probably snap them up.

Quote from: Lyle (Mooska)
But then there's the rub.  Who decides if it's worth it or not?  You?  A company?
A Government?  A journalist? Who decides overriding public need? Snowden?
Greenwald? Mayor Bloomberg?

It’s a chain, Lyle, one in which someone presents something he/she considers to be worthy of being news, then the person who’s approached makes the decision that it’s important enough to be made public.
Decisions about the “worth” of any information which was presented would be up to the the editorial staff of the publications which were approached.

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Offline Paul029

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #326 on: August 29, 2013, 06:29:35 AM »
Both examples are hardly newsworthy, and even questionable regarding “entertainment value.”

While I agree that the Manning and Snowden sagas are very entertaining, very little of the press
coverage the average person is seeing or hearing about is related to what YOU consider newsworthy
about it.  It's about the fact they stole Government secrets they were entrusted with and swore oaths
not to reveal.

I’m unable to comment on what “the average person is seeing or hearing,” Lyle.

What he/she decides to be of importance in “press coverage” is up to them, certainly not myself—what I believe to be “newsworthy” is a personal matter.

“Newsworthiness” is a fascinatingly complex issue, far more so than ethical journalistic behaviour.

(The Society of Professional Journalists’ website, for instance, outlines a detailed Code of Ethics—simply as a set of voluntary guidelines—for what it considers to be the principles of journalistic ethics).


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Offline Paul029

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #327 on: August 29, 2013, 06:48:30 AM »
We've had this discussion before. Unless a poster prefaces it with something different, I assume
people who are quoting the opinions of others in their posts agree with what those people are saying,
otherwise why are you posting them in the first place? 
And since I assume you are agreeing with the
sentiments, I see no reason not to quote them as your own if I so desire.

Seriously, the very fact you're
quoting people means nothing in particular to you?

That’s not so, Lyle. I quoted from Simon Jenkins’ article because (as I said) it “encapsulated my thoughts
about the issue of the nine-hour detention at Heathrow Airport of Glenn Greenwald’s partner, David Miranda.”

While you’re free to quote Jenkins’ words as my own I wanted to make it clear to others that they weren’t.
It’s called correct accreditation ... a moot point, perhaps.  :)

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Offline Sara B

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #328 on: August 29, 2013, 06:55:19 AM »
No coffee shop need, no equivocation...
the US should stay out of Syria. Period.
It doesn't matter to me which side gassed those people. It is an internal problem and ABSOLUTELY none of our business.
Barring a direct attack by Syria on US soil, we should not get involved.

I agree, Sherry. (Yes, really ;))

Offline Sara B

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Re: News and Current Events - 2013 to 2014
« Reply #329 on: August 29, 2013, 06:58:42 AM »
I have yet to speak with anyone who does care about Assad. Or Syria. Or any possible lies our government is telling us.
If those 12 Arab nations are so concerned about what's going on in their neighborhood, they should handle it.


I do care very much about people being gassed in Syria. But I don't think outside intervention often achieves what it ostensibly sets out to do.

But then.... "What about Hitler and the Nazis?"  I just don't know.