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Author Topic: Diamonds in youtube's rough  (Read 12995 times)

Offline foreverinawe

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Diamonds in youtube's rough
« on: September 19, 2018, 08:00:10 AM »
Sometimes...just sometimes...youtube has a video that seems inspiring, or maybe profound, or maybe hilarious -- but it has a deep impact on you or me. So much so that we want to talk about it with our friends. That's the only criteria: it moves us enough to want to discuss it.

That's the idea here. Give a youtube link, tell what moves you, and invite conversation. The subject doesn't matter -- music, drama, history, love, anything else -- all that counts is that it seems wonderfully moving to you.

(It would be very helpful if every reply began with the title and link of the original post. That would avoid the occasional frustration of having to go back and search for for the original link. Just a thought.)

   ~~~fia
And why are we shown this trivial detail? Because that truck carries the most important cargo of our puny lives:  love and hope.

Offline foreverinawe

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2018, 08:45:03 AM »
A sample of what I mean...

Background: several years ago there was an earlier posting of this video. It had Spanish dialog, and it allowed comments. I posted a comment (in English) and several people replied  (in English) to my comment, telling very personal and private stories about similar relationships. I don't know what transpired, but  recently that entire video and all the comments got deleted. Pity.

Now the video is back, but with English dialog. Unfortunately, new comments are disabled.

Brotherly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxL9y3iL76c

Here is my original comment:

-------------------------
It's old hat, of course, that when we agree to watch a movie or play, we tacitly agree to suspend disbelief. But it happens
occasionally that the story touches us, and we have an unexpectedly deep reaction. The many comments posted here
show an enormous range of such reactions.

Yes, there are endless vilifying comments -- incest, pedophilia, disgust, anger and outrage at the
story. I understand them and I don't disparage them. I think they are honest reactions.

But wait, there is something else, something tiny and frail at the bottom of the pile of invective. I think it should be acknowledged. In this video, Paul has agreed to tell his story to an interviewer. As he talks, there are flashbacks, and we get to see youngsters performing the action.

Paul is 10 years old, the son of alcoholic parents who constantly trash him. He is wretched because he does not feel loved.
But he adores his 16 year old brother, Mike, who seems to be a flourishing athlete in high school. Paul calls him Miky.

One night during a violent thunderstorm, Paul has a parental nightmare and wets his bed. Miky cleans him up.
They go to bed in Miky's dry bed:

Paul 10 y/o: Mike. Miky
Mike 16 y/o: Yeah
Paul: You awake?
Mike: Yeah.
Paul: Can I ask you sumpin'?
Mike: Go ahead. What is it?
Paul: You promise never ever to leave me?
Mike: Chill out
Paul: Promise?
Mike: I promise. Go to sleep, I have a game tomorrow.
Paul: Miky
Mike: What is it?
 
  Paul does not finish his thought,
    but snuggles down in his pillow.
  Mike rolls over to Paul
    and puts his arm around him.

Paul 40+ y/o: That was the first time I remember being that close to another man...male...whatever...that way.
Michael's arms were strong and warm, it was like I began to understand what it felt like to be safe for the first
time in my life. It's my best memory.

"It's my best memory."
In 40+ years, that is his best memory. But two years later Mike was out of high school and off to college, effectively
separating them forever. And breaking the promise that Paul cherished with all his heart.

In eleven minutes, Kevin Fabian, Joe Brouillette and JC Oliva have delivered a story with more compassion
and pathos than most 2-hour Hollywood epics. I think it is surpassing.

---------------------------------------------------

How does it strike you?

   ~~~fia
« Last Edit: September 19, 2018, 10:38:10 AM by foreverinawe »
And why are we shown this trivial detail? Because that truck carries the most important cargo of our puny lives:  love and hope.

Offline heavenonearth

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2018, 04:05:04 PM »
I'm going to be courageous and be the first to share a few thoughts and feelings.

It strikes me as a very moving story. My heart broke for their everyday circumstances, the parents being alcoholics...and all that entails.

I think that sexual curiosity between siblings may be more prevalent than one thinks. But I see it differently here; they are, maybe more so the younger boy?, seeking comfort and warmth in each other in what was for them a cold, lonely, and unaffectionate environment. They are seriously lacking.

You can see how the difference in age paints a different picture for each of them, although we hear more how Paul feels. He comes to see their relationship as a marriage and is traumatized when Mike leaves. This is so sad to see, Paul feeling totally abandoned. I am not blaming Mike, he lived his life the way he thought, 16 is not 40. He surely would have his feelings to deal with, if not then, later in life.

I personally do not feel disgust, anger or outrage and I do not judge anyone that does. My motto at this point in life is, until I have walked a mile in someone's shoes...

fia - I would love to read the comment you had originally posted or how you feel now?

This is another topic but the story reminds me of some videos I watched a few months ago, about incestuous relationships between siblings, parent and child... who had been separated at birth or soon after and met again as adults, and fell in love. They made a life together, some had children... some had their children taken away... It was heartbreaking to see what they and the children went through.
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Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2018, 04:11:41 PM »
Thanks for starting this thread, fia!

I will watch the video over the weekend, when I have more free time, and come back to add some thoughts.

;D


Offline fritzkep

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 04:14:42 PM »
It just strikes me as odd that they would in the film note refer to the brothers' relationship as incestuous. The term just doesn't relate the same to me, though I could imagine it if there were a great difference in age, or if perhaps one of them held a power position over the others. To me they're equals in a bad situation.

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Offline foreverinawe

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2018, 06:36:09 PM »
Brotherly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxL9y3iL76c

On 9/19/2018 at 06:05:04 PM, Heavenonearth wrote:

I'm going to be courageous and be the first to share a few thoughts and feelings.

Good girl. I'm honored.

It strikes me as a very moving story. My heart broke for their everyday circumstances,
the parents being alcoholics...and all that entails.

I think that sexual curiosity between siblings may be more prevalent than one thinks.

You may be right, but I haven't read much on the subject. In Kinsey's book on the male,
he says he didn't find much, but also said he felt that in his interviews, his subjects
often held back experiences that they found too embarrassing
.

You can see how the difference in age paints a different picture for each of them,
although we hear more how Paul feels. He comes to see their relationship as a marriage
and is traumatized when Mike leaves.

I thought that when Paul said he felt that Mike might take him to college with him,
he sort of groped for the term "wife". Maybe I'm putting words in his mouth, but I thought
what he really meant was that perhaps there was some sort of status that could
legitimize their staying together -- "guardian" would have been more appropriate, but
he probably wasn't familiar with the term.


This is so sad to see, Paul feeling totally abandoned. I am not blaming Mike,
he lived his life the way he thought, 16 is not 40.

I hated that so many of the comments trashed Mike. Mike surely had to
suffer their parents' alcoholism too, and while college was certainly proper for him,
it also meant being liberated from them: a huge relief.

Mike's face, as he looked back to Paul, seemed to me to be lined with pain. He
understood that he was hurting Paul, and I think he absolutely loved his little
brother. I think he also loved sex with Paul, and knew he could never replace it.
But at this point, the demands of growing up overrode all other considerations:
he had to leave.

I felt hugely sorry for both of them.


I personally do not feel disgust, anger or outrage and I do not judge anyone that does.
My motto at this point in life is, until I have walked a mile in someone's shoes...

fia - I would love to read the comment you had originally posted or how you feel now?

My last post, above, is in fact my original post. FWIW, my intention was to tell
everyone that I thought the video was superlative, incest be damned.

Several commenters took the trouble to point out that incest is taboo because
it often produces defective children. But since this was same sex, no children would
result anyway, thus it was moot. But that ignores the psychological guilt, and
fear of discovery, that inevitably hound the doers.


This is another topic but the story reminds me of some videos I watched a few months ago,
about incestuous relationships between siblings, parent and child... who had been
separated at birth or soon after and met again as adults, and fell in love.
They made a life together, some had children... some had their children taken away...
It was heartbreaking to see what they and the children went through.

Thanks for sharing, Michelle.

   ~~~fia
And why are we shown this trivial detail? Because that truck carries the most important cargo of our puny lives:  love and hope.

Offline heavenonearth

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2018, 07:25:39 PM »
Brotherly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxL9y3iL76c



I hated that so many of the comments trashed Mike. Mike surely had to
suffer their parents' alcoholism too, and while college was certainly proper for him,
it also meant being liberated from them: a huge relief.

I agree. I know siblings that were raised by a raging alcoholic father and it is the oldest who appears to have been the most marked by the situation. She had no one protecting her.


My last post, above, is in fact my original post. FWIW, my intention was to tell
everyone that I thought the video was superlative, incest be damned.

Several commenters took the trouble to point out that incest is taboo because
it often produces defective children.
But since this was same sex, no children would
result anyway, thus it was moot. But that ignores the psychological guilt, and
fear of discovery, that inevitably hound the doers.

I am not convinced of this but then I have not researched it extensively. There were some reports made in the videos I mentioned watching that implied it was not necessarily the case, that it did not happen anymore often than it did for unrelated couples. And what about couples, who after having had one child with a handicap or worse, because of a gene they both carry, go on to have more children? No one prevents them.

My heart simply went out to these two boys. And I suppose, the addicted parents as well. An all around sad situation.

Thanks, fia.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:53:43 AM by heavenonearth »
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Offline heavenonearth

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2018, 07:29:38 PM »
I apologize for messing up the quotes and writing everything inside the box. I'll try and do better next time. I'm too tired to fix it.  :)
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Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2018, 07:46:03 PM »
I apologize for messing up the quotes and writing everything inside the box. I'll try and do better next time. I'm too tired to fix it.  :)

I think I fixed it for you.  I hope that's how it's supposed to look!

Offline Sara B

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 04:03:00 AM »
Slightly o/t:

Anyone seen the Brazilian film, “From Beginning to End”? If you haven’t, don’t bother. It’s about two half brothers who have a very intense loving relationship, which becomes sexual. It starts off quite promisingly, but becomes very disappointing. I had no objections to the sex or attractive nudity, but the acting was poor, the relationship was not explored in depth, and the ending was very unconvincingly happy-ever-after. Long time since I saw it, but I remember thinking, “But what about...?”

Offline heavenonearth

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 04:46:38 AM »
I think I fixed it for you.  I hope that's how it's supposed to look!

It's perfect! Thanks, Chuck. I am not sure still how you manage what you did but I will keep tinkering with it. You seem to add a quote at the end of each copy and paste before adding a comment? Do you use the "insert quote" icon? No worries, I will figure it out. I think.  ;D
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Offline heavenonearth

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 04:52:09 AM »
Slightly o/t:

Anyone seen the Brazilian film, “From Beginning to End”? If you haven’t, don’t bother. It’s about two half brothers who have a very intense loving relationship, which becomes sexual. It starts off quite promisingly, but becomes very disappointing. I had no objections to the sex or attractive nudity, but the acting was poor, the relationship was not explored in depth, and the ending was very unconvincingly happy-ever-after. Long time since I saw it, but I remember thinking, “But what about...?”

I have never seen that film, Sara. It does not sound like it has any staying power. For me, I like depth that speaks to my emotions, then I'm in. If not, it all feels too superficial and forgettable.
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Offline foreverinawe

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 12:11:32 PM »
Anyone seen the Brazilian film, “From Beginning to End”? If you haven’t, don’t bother. It’s about two half brothers who have a very intense loving relationship, which becomes sexual. It starts off quite promisingly, but becomes very disappointing. I had no objections to the sex or attractive nudity, but the acting was poor, the relationship was not explored in depth, and the ending was very unconvincingly happy-ever-after.

Quick answer: No, I never saw it.

But since you gave me the title, I youtubed it, found :56 minutes of it, and watched. The director obviously liked to tell his tale slowly (sometimes veeeeeeerrrrrryyyyy slowly), but I thought the story was fairly interesting. The title I found said "Part 1", but I never found a Part 2.  Part 1 ended shortly after they became adults. I found one streaming service that offered to show me the entire movie (:90 min) for $2.99. The price exceeded my curiosity.

I assume they were speaking Portuguese. There were no English subtitles, so I could only guess at what was troubling the boys' parents. Apparently it didn't much matter, the boys seemed pretty happy  :D

   ~~~fia

And why are we shown this trivial detail? Because that truck carries the most important cargo of our puny lives:  love and hope.

Offline foreverinawe

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2018, 06:37:29 AM »
From Beginning to End Part 1 with English subtitles :43min.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5ptizk

From Beginning to End Part 2 with English subtitles :53min.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5q2cgu

Serious update.

No, it wasn't youtube that delivered the video, it was "dailymotion.com", a company I never heard of. It's French, a branch of Vivendi.

A 2009 Brazilian film, the movie's photography and HD resolution are flawless, and the subtitles are perfect. Brotherly was certainly off the beaten path, and this one is even farther afield.

Yesterday, when I watched the :56 min. youtube offering without subtitles, I didn't think much of it. I realize now that the problem was that I didn't understand the story. And there really is a good story. The subtitles make all the difference in the world.

As I watched the boys' unique relationship unfold I had a hard time keeping my disbelief suspended  ;D. But eventually I accepted the premise, and by the end of the film, I was cheering for them.

Definitely unexpected. Thank you, Sara, and dailymotion.com.

   ~~~fia
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 07:33:29 AM by foreverinawe »
And why are we shown this trivial detail? Because that truck carries the most important cargo of our puny lives:  love and hope.

Offline CellarDweller115

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Re: Diamonds in youtube's rough
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2018, 09:31:14 AM »
I just watched "Brotherly", and I must admit, I'm not sure what to feel.

I do agree a lot with what Michelle said above.  The brothers were living through a difficult daily life and they needed affection.  They found that with each other.  However, it went beyond affection, and I'm not sure how that happened.

As the older brother, Mike should not have allowed this type of relationship to begin.  I understand that he was only 16, I'm sure he didn't realize it, but his actions only ended up further scarring Paul.  I would like to know what caused this relationship to happen.  I'm sure there are millions of siblings who go through this experience with alcoholic parents, and their bond doesn't tip over into what Paul's and Mike's did.

It's obvious that Paul still carries a heavy burden over this.