Anne Hathaway - Princess to Lureen

[Wayne SF]

Scott, I have to think that Lureen is speaking of something more specific.  More specific than what you propose.  Do you believe, and I am asking, Jack brought up the topic of divorce and moving onto the ole' homestead with another man?  Did he SAY Randall?  He couldn't have said to Lureen 'I want to divorce you and live my life with Ennis'.  Because then Lureen wouldn't have to answer the phone with 'Who?  Who is this?  I know you.  You're the fishin' buddy or huntin' buddy.  I know that."

[Wayne SF]

Lauren,  The way Jack's mother says "You are welcome to go up to his room, if you like'....actually, the way she delivers that line, the way Ang Lee films that line....she is not making an offer or asking...G/D, she is TELLING him to go upstairs.  Whaddya think?  The camera cuts to Mrs. Twist, full on facial-head-shot, and nothing else.  She says 'You are' very deliberately...not 'you're'. 

[lauren]

Scott88, while I was out running just now, I came up with the same thoughts you have on this. I think I've been overthinking this one a bit. I think it's likely that after she realized who Ennis was that she simply made the connection, as you say, about Jack's trips and Jack's desire to be with Ennis.

Wayne, my thought is that Lureen is telling Ennis about going up to the ranch in keeping with this other wish...so she is referring to Ennis, not anyone else.  If she were thinking of R, it doesn't seem she would allude to this other wish while talking with Ennis. She naturally makes the connection to Ennis because she knows now Jack's wish was to be with him. I'm still unsure how much she knows about his murder, but I wouldn't rule out that she knows something about it, perhaps after the fact.

[lauren]

Wayne, I think you're right on about Mrs. Twist. I feel she is telling him as strongly as she can that he SHOULD go upstairs. I think she also says this so strongly because her husband has just mentioned the other rancher, and I think she wants to emphasize that he needs to go up there. And she also gives him a choice: "if you want.." I also love this moment because I see in her the same dignity and strength that we see in Jack, that same dignity that we see when Aguirre tells him about stemming the rose. The look on Jack's face in that moment says he knows what he and Ennis have and no one will ever cast shame on it. 

[Wayne SF]

Lauren. I;ll have to agree with you on that one point...why would Lureen bring up a reference to Ennis about Randall, when she has just put two-and-two-together?

[peteinportland]

Hoo boy...I have to give this one some thought. It has been in the back of my mind for a long time, but I haven't figured it out. I don't buy that Jack told her he was going to divorce her and move to the ranch nor that Lureen would allude to that to Ennis. But I can't think of any other wishes Lureen might think Ennis would get mixed up with the wish about where he wanted his ashes scattered.

I could see Jack telling her when they were discussing his burial wishes to make sure she lets his fishing buddy know that he left something for him in his childhood room. She (or Jack) may have already told his mom to expect Ennis and to let him go up to Jack's room. Then when Lureen puts two and two into four, she doesn't tell Ennis out of spite. However, Jack's mom still carries out the rest of Jack's wishes (that Ennis find the shirts).

Maybes on top of maybes here. Maybe the DVD will give us a clue.

[lauren]

I'm all over the place on this one...PeteinPortland, that's the one thing that's always bothered me too. It's always been hard for me to see Jack telling Lureen about he and Ennis. I can see him telling her about his burial plans, though, as you say. That would fit in with what Wayne has pointed out about Lureen not recognizing Ennis' name, but knowing he is the fishing buddy. Lureen does pointedly tell Ennis to go to see his parents, so perhaps if she's not being entirely truthful with him as you suggest, then that's her way of letting him know. I wish I knew too what Lee intended with this other wish. But I can only think it's tied to Jack's wish to live with Ennis.

Wayne, I agree about Jack's father-in-law and the 'being a man' comment. I thought this meant he had a suspicion Jack is gay. The rodeo circuit is small, and Jack has already been outed I think as illustrated by the rodeo clown scene. Perhaps this is also illustrated by those guys who said Jack was a 'piss ant' that tried to ride bulls. Maybe that's also why Randall knew to make a pass at Jack -- he'd heard rumors. Makes me think his father-in-law has heard them too. These guys would perhaps not kill Jack, but they likely knew people who would.

[jiml]

Thanks, Pete, for spilling the beans that this secret meeting going on in this thread. I feel so left out! The only time I've looked at this thread it was just fan pics. How dare you all be doing acutal analysis without me here to hear it. 

Boy, I have lots of thoughts about this. It drives me crazy. I like a lot of what you all have said, but it still doesn't all fit.

Why was Jack discussing his burial wishes with Lureen?  If Jack had really been optimistically looking forward to a life with either J or R, and given what we had seen of his relationship with Lureen, it just doesn't seem like a conversation they would have had. Maybe earlier in their relationship they were more chatty, but that would seem to be a time during the first years...before rekindling the relationship with Ennis. And, as newlyweds, they were awfully young to have really thought much of death, weren't they? Maybe nowadays people tend to make arrangements early, but back then everybody pretty much just went in the family plot. Jack wouldn't seem to be that kind of planner.

[jiml]

Some have thought maybe Jack committed suicide, and if he did, he may have left a note. But, I just don’t think Jack would have done this – the story doesn’t seem to lead in that direction. Jack may have been despairing, but just MHO I can’t see him leaving Ennis in this way.

As this board's leading proponent of the suicide theory, let me comment on that. I think you're right to say that "the story doesn't seem to lead in that direction." Maybe not in the way you're meaning it though.

I absolutely CAN see him leaving Ennis this way, if only because he felt that Ennis had already left him. "I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it." "I wish I knew how to quit you." The sense of finality as Ennis drives away. The aged, weary look of his eyes. (Is this really just bad aging makeup or is it intended to convey something more?)

I also think Lureen's behavior on the phone is perfectly consistent with a woman's behavior after her husband's suicide. The rote recitation of a cover story. The breaths, the welling tears when she put it all together. The fact that he could have voiced his "wishes" in the burial note.

I personally wish that this were the correct interpretation. I've worked out in my mind how that would make such an incredibly powerful message to the story and would put it in a league with many great tragedies involving suicide. (And I'm sure I'll babble on more about this later.) However, as I said above, I've pretty much accepted that this isn't the intended meaning. If this is what Lee/McMurty/Ossana intended, surely there would be a few more clues. I mean what's the point of a suicide in a film if no one can even figure out that that's what happened?

[Wayne SF]

oj...didn't mean to exclude anyone.  this topic was just something Lauren and I had problems with a while back.  I just ddin't know where else she and I could meet, appropriately hehehe!!

[Scott88]

You know, I bet it was as simple as Jack telling Lureen off-handedly at some point, "When I die, I want my ashes scattered on Brokeback Mountain."  

Doesn't mean he was anticipating dying anytime soon (he clearly wasn't), but think about it:  In the later years, Jack realizes that starting a life with Ennis might not pan out as he had dreamed.  And so to ensure that his wishes are carried out -- that his ashes are to spend eternity in the one place where it felt like heaven on earth -- it's wise to let his wife know since, more than likely, she'd be in charge of the arrangements if he died before her.  

Put differently, I think it was Jack's way of safeguarding this wish.

[Bobbie]

Wow, great discussion about Lureen and Ennis' phone conversation.  If you would like to continue this discussion, why not take it over to "The Other Tragedies: Alma and Lureen" thread. 

AND, if you'd like to learn more about Ann, checkout http://www.annehathawayfan.com.  Apparently DISNEY is a nice place to visit but she doesn't want to live there!

[jiml]

Wow, great discussion about Lureen and Ennis' phone conversation.  If you would like to continue this discussion, why not take it over to "The Other Tragedies: Alma and Lureen" thread.

Oh, no. I'm having flashbacks to my high school years. Just when I find where all the cool kids are hanging out, the teacher comes in and breaks up the party. :-[

[lauren]

OJ, that was my thought: that the story isn't leading in that direction because, if it were, there would be more direct clues that this is what happened. But Lee doesn't give us those. Suicide is within the realm of possibilities but to me isn't probable given these lack of direct clues. So, I don't go there.

It's interesting you feel Ennis has already left Jack. They've had this arrangement for so many years, so would Jack feel any differently than he has the many other times when they've had to leave each other after their trips? I know Jack is run down and sick of this arrangment (and feels incredibly lonely) and knows he can't have Ennis full time, but Ennis doesn't waver on his commitment to see Jack every few months, even at the end. If anything, Ennis shows even more attachment to Jack in their final scene. Not to say that Jack insn't dispairing. He definitely is.

[Bobbie]

Wow, great discussion about Lureen and Ennis' phone conversation.  If you would like to continue this discussion, why not take it over to "The Other Tragedies: Alma and Lureen" thread.

Oh, no. I'm having flashbacks to my high school years. Just when I find where all the cool kids are hanging out, the teacher comes in and breaks up the party. :-[

And if you don't continue to behave, I'll send you to the principle's office.