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Author Topic: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?  (Read 117610 times)

Offline Rosewood

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2007, 04:28:14 PM »
I poked around on MSNBC's site to e-mail Geist, but couldn't find his address.  If someone can, let me know and I'll pepper him with some electronic buckshot.

I am so pissed I missed "Cold Case" Sunday PM, I can't tell you.  I walked in the door at 5 till 9 and saw the end of "Big Brother," then without thinking switched to "Family Guy."  Since I was in Los Angeles for a family event, I didn't read the paper in the AM, including the Sunday TV section.  I've been watching for it all summer.  :( 

My only consolation is the millions of people who saw the episode--probably more at one shot than "Brokeback" had viewers or patrons.

I think that WG has a blog called ZeitGeist or Zeit-Geist or something on MSNBC.
I don't go over there, but they plug the blog often enough.
Look under Tucker Carlson's show and I imagine you'll find the Geist thing.

Too  bad you missed the FOREVER BLUE episode, db.
It was quite good. Made me tear up.
(And I'm not normally a fan of COLD CASE at all.)
When was the last time a tv show did that?
Can't remember.

I tried to tape it but the vcr section of my dvd player chose
that exact time to break down. Go figure...





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Offline Roco

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #226 on: September 15, 2007, 03:21:21 PM »
An interesting article from the ADVOCATE

*Commentary*
March 06, 2006
The dark side of Brokeback Mountain

While Brokeback has certainly exposed mainstream America to the emotional truth of gay romantic love, the torrent of media coverage surrounding the film reveals a deeply rooted repugnancy toward homosexuality

By John Morgan Wilson
An Advocate.com exclusive posted March 6, 2006


 
 Now that the Oscar telecast is past, the awards have been handed out, and the hoopla over Brokeback Mountain has begun to fade, I’d like to inject a dose of reality into the massive media coverage of this excellent and admirable film.

To my mind, there’s no question that Brokeback Mountain is an important landmark in gay cultural history, portraying as it does romantic love between two men so sensitively and unabashedly. Yet its release and much of the publicity surrounding it serve as a reminder that while many heterosexuals may embrace the quality of the filmmaking and the story’s inherent emotional pull, there remains widespread repugnance toward homosexuality that’s rooted deeply in the hearts and minds of straight Americans, including many professed liberals and hip Hollywood types.

I’m talking about one of the stars, Heath Ledger, telling a publication that he and costar Jake Gyllenhaal had to “work hard to keep from laughing” when they prepared to kiss each other in a scripted scene. It’s not something I can imagine him ever telling a reporter about a romantic scene he’d shared with a female actor. (At least he’s honest about his discomfort with kissing a man; I’ll give him that.)

I’m talking about the likable Gyllenhaal going on the Jay Leno show to promote the movie and saying pointedly that the initial idea of playing a “gay cowboy” was unthinkable, and that years earlier he’d been repulsed when someone had suggested he read the Annie Proulx short story on which the eventual movie was based. (I wonder if reading stories involving violence or emotional abuse also turn him off so fervently.)

I’m talking about the affable Leno falling all over himself to make sure his TV audience knew that he considered Brokeback a “wonderful” film. This despite his endless homophobic jokes over the years during his monologues, particularly his asides with bandleader Kevin Eubanks, when they make it clear that they find the idea of physical intimacy between two men really icky. (Though he doesn’t seem to realize it, the unmarried Eubanks’s reflexive revulsion to any reference to gay sexuality stopped being funny and started looking suspicious years ago.)

I’m talking about the repeated references in the endless media coverage of Brokeback Mountain to the heterosexuality of director Ang Lee and his male stars, reflecting their apparent need to distance themselves from homosexuality. (Or maybe it’s just the publicists and reporters who feel that’s so important.)

I’m talking about their constant pleas during interviews, direct or implied, for moviegoers to get beyond their preconceptions and experience the film as a great love story regardless of its same-sex nature. (Put another way: We realize that you find gay love alien and gay sex disgusting, but, hey, this is a movie, so don’t let your understandable repugnance keep you from seeing a great flick.)

As gays, we may finally have a mainstream movie that treats homosexual love with the same respect Hollywood has long accorded romance between men and women. But let’s not kid ourselves into thinking that most heterosexuals don’t cringe and squirm and make faces still when faced with the reality of same-sex love—meaning the sex itself, which is the crux of the issue. And let’s not pretend that all the attention to Brokeback Mountain represents a groundswell of tolerance and sexual maturity across America. For all its awards, critical acclaim, and box office returns, Brokeback has been seen in theaters by a tiny percentage of the American people—many of them gay men and women, and straights who were already open-minded—not the tens of millions who bought tickets to see The Passion of the Christ and other blockbusters. (I know, I know—jerks like the Fox network’s Bill O’Reilly will probably take a statement like this out of context and use it in one of his televised rants to diminish the importance of Brokeback Mountain, as he’s already done with the words of others. But facts are facts, and homophobia is homophobia, with a moralizing hypocrite like Bill “Phone Sex” O’Reilly a prime example.)

Don’t get me wrong. I love Brokeback Mountain and I’m delighted that it exists. I think it’s a powerful example of what can be accomplished by brave and open-minded writers, filmmakers, and actors, who might have to work through their own ingrained homophobia to embrace the material. And I truly believe it’s an important step in the long struggle for gay visibility and recognition. Definitely a positive, along with other recent films like Capote and Transamerica that portray gays and transgender people as flesh-and-blood human beings.

So let’s celebrate Brokeback Mountain, its achievements and success. But let’s not forget how much antipathy still festers and spreads out there, like a cancer rooted deep in the American psyche, for whom and what we truly are. Let’s not forget how much work remains to be done in a battle for equality and dignity that will never end.

John Morgan Wilson is a veteran journalist and mystery writer who has won an Edgar and three Lambda Literary awards. His latest novel, Rhapsody in Blood, published March 1, revolves around gay celebrities and the Hollywood closet.
 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 03:39:08 PM by roco »
“The levels of intimacy and emotion experienced within these relationships are exactly what happens within heterosexual love. And I just thought it was good to try and open some people’s minds.” - HEATH LEDGER

Offline john john

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #227 on: September 15, 2007, 03:45:10 PM »
Thanks for this Roco.

I wondering how much the 'disgust' for gay love isn't something most feel should be the appropriate reaction, in other words a learned knee jerk reaction instead of a thought out one. An 'I shouldn't react differently from the mainstream' type of response to make sure one blends in.

After all if straight people accept it aren't they somehow pointed out as 'strange' to say the least?

I guess gay and straight is like oil and water you can't blend them. Or can you? ;D

Having to hide your love is denying it.

Offline Roco

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #228 on: September 15, 2007, 03:59:54 PM »
Thanks for this Roco.

I wondering how much the 'disgust' for gay love isn't something most feel should be the appropriate reaction, in other words a learned knee jerk reaction instead of a thought out one. An 'I shouldn't react differently from the mainstream' type of response to make sure one blends in.

After all if straight people accept it aren't they somehow pointed out as 'strange' to say the least?

I guess gay and straight is like oil and water you can't blend them. Or can you? ;D


I agree, HOMOPHOBIA is a learned response.

Young children don't know that YOU DON'T HUG AND KISS  OR HOLD HANDS WITH OTHER LITTLE BOYS (or little girls).

They have to have it drummed into them by their parents, teachers, and peers.

We Gays are the only minority that it is still in fashion to belittle and ridicule, if not outright HATE!

Like it says in that song by Bonnie Rait

"I can't make you love me, if you don't!"
“The levels of intimacy and emotion experienced within these relationships are exactly what happens within heterosexual love. And I just thought it was good to try and open some people’s minds.” - HEATH LEDGER

Offline Brokeback_1

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #229 on: September 15, 2007, 09:29:55 PM »
Some of that 18 months old article is certainly true. I remember it, and remember my reaction reading it. At the time I thought while the author did bring up good points the guy was really  negative while denying it, and using BBM as an  excuse to start a flame war. I get tired of whining, and that's what he was doing IMO.

Of course, I'm not gay, I'm bi and necessarily have a different perspective from the gay perspective. If someone considers someone else's sexual acts not for them or "icky", that's their right and has nothing to do with being anti or pro gay. For example,  I'd hardly consider either Ledger or Gyllenhaal antigay. My own son is the most gay friendly 22 year old imaginable; you could ask some of the men here on DCF about that! But I very much doubt he could  kiss another male without laughing. I too would have a hard time not laughing if I did some things which others do all the time, like get dressed up and act as if I was 'seriously' part of the leather  scene. The very  idea makes me giggle. But it does not make me hate or despise leather guys, it just makes me wonder why and what they like about  it. I mean, get serious, leather makes you sweat a lot, it's uncomfortable.

 I'm surprised after all this time, however, that the the same thoughts went through my head as as when originally reading it. After all, so much else has changed.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe but nothing could be done about it, & if you can't fix it, you've got to stand it

Offline freetraveller

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #230 on: September 16, 2007, 01:22:46 PM »
Thank you for that article, roco.
Yes, I agree, in some respects homophobia is a learned response, deeply ingrained in the environment & culture one has been brought up in.
By the same token, of couse, even the most homophobic people have the potential to overcome their deepest fears or disgust about same-sex relationships if the environment they live in starts to become more accepting and tolerant, if they start to listen to different views, to come face to face with same-sex lovers in their own circle of friends, if they get a chance to see for themselves that same-sex love deserves the same respect and dignity as heterosexual love.
Although I was brought up as a Catholic and went to a Catholic high school, I never felt pressurised/conditioned by parents or teachers into thinking there was anything "wrong" with homosexuality. But at the same time, I was not encouraged to talk about it too much, to ask too many questions... the topic was not taboo but still remained on the periphery of my thoughts and imagination.
I admit I felt a bit strange the first time I saw a close (male) friend of mine kissing and holding hands with his then boyfriend (I was 20 years old), like I would do when faced with something unfamiliar so far I couldn't totally grasp. I was intrigued, but not disgusted in the least. I wanted to know more, I asked questions, I read books, I even locked myself at night in my dad's study (he's a medical doctor) to search for something to read about homosexuality in his library etc. (of course, that was before the Internet came along...  ;)) I wanted to become a better and more open-minded person, I wanted to think for myself and not rely on peer pressure or other people's opinions I might have been spoonfed as a teenager.
It took a while, but I think education and self-englightening is a very powerful tool against intolerance and homophobia.
Travellers are those who find what they were not looking for...

Offline chapeaugris

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #231 on: September 16, 2007, 02:51:14 PM »
Contrary to when I was growing up, there is now almost an overload of information about homosexuality available to kids -- or rather about "gayness." My kids spend a huge amount of time on YouTube, myspace, etc. and they seem to be completely au fait with gayness but not really homosexuality. The other evening I overheard my daughters (15 and 13) talking about a movie in which a conservative Republican discovers his dog is gay. They were laughing about this and then the younger one said  "Wait, how does that work, exactly?" And the older one said, only semi-joking, "You know, it wears pink all the time."

My older daughter went to a Quaker holiday school in England this summer and there was a gay teenager there who told them that when he was in some similar group thing they had to go around and say something about themselves that people don't know. He said "I'm gay" and the facilitator's response was "Yeah, right. Tell us something that's true." In some places it seems like teens are so blasé about "gayness" that you can't even come out in any dramatic way because they'll think you're joking. I get the impression that gay men are the butt of jokes (no pun intended!) more often than lesbians. In a certain way I think that my daughters are more respectful of female couples than male ones. I'm not sure why. They haven't watched Brokeback Mountain and I want them to now. But because they know I'm so obsessed with it -- no way!  ::)

Offline john john

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #232 on: September 16, 2007, 03:11:17 PM »
Chapeaugris, are you saying your girls don't want to see it because YOU love it?

If so I'm surprised because usually kids want to see 'grown up' stuff.

If they did do you think that, being so young, they'd understand it? I mean this is not 'The Princess Bride'.



Having to hide your love is denying it.

Offline chapeaugris

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #233 on: September 16, 2007, 10:46:18 PM »
Chapeaugris, are you saying your girls don't want to see it because YOU love it?

If so I'm surprised because usually kids want to see 'grown up' stuff.

If they did do you think that, being so young, they'd understand it? I mean this is not 'The Princess Bride'.

They think all the music I love is rubbish, therefore they wouldn't be caught dead watching this movie that I'm crazy enough about to actually belong to a forum devoted to it. Maybe 18 months ago they would have been curious (when they were younger and slightly less teenagery) but now this is just Mummy's wacko thing.  ;D ;D :P  The younger one is the hardliner, though, so I might work on her sister. As for understanding it, I would hope they would understand the emotions behind it. I would have to do some explaing about the FNIT but at least I am well-armed with info from a certain thread.   ;D

Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #234 on: January 26, 2008, 10:52:30 AM »
Here is something I think is important to bring up....

I was out to breakfast this am, when before I ordered my meal, the day manager came over to a table near mine, and proceeded-LOUDLY-to tell a totally nasty BBM/Football joke to the guy sitting at the table. The guy laughed briefly, but the woman with him didn't even crack a smile. No one else in the area seemed to, either... and I certainly didn't-I was in effin shock.

Well, I steamed over it, and being the gutless wonder I can sometimes be, I waited until I left, then called and left a rather lengthy message on the store number line. Some guy who is the general manager's number.

I am sincerely hoping he calls me back, so I can wring him out emotionally, and maybe he will warn that other store manager;  and the guy will at least be aware before he makes such stupid jokes in public, at work, where people cannot just easily confront him and walk off...I really wanted to kick his neanderthal ass, I tell you, for being so insensitive-5 days from Heath's passing!; he even looked ape-ish, which didn't help things out.

So, I'd say we have a long way to go with arseholes like that getting into mngt positions. >:( >:(


Oh, by the way, it was a Village Inn-feel free to boycott it. I might, depending on the reply I get.

Offline dback

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #235 on: January 28, 2008, 01:26:31 PM »
their breakfasts are mediocre anyways.  :)  I think you did fine.  I'd definitely walk out of an establishment where a MANAGER was making that kind of joke, and say why I wouldn't return, and would tell my friends not to either.  Hurting 'em in the pocketbook always gets a reaction.
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Offline CANSTANDIT

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #236 on: January 28, 2008, 08:35:13 PM »
you're right, dback....


Did I tell you how much I loved your article? I thought I was reading a published magazine article by a professional critic or something!

Offline dback

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #237 on: January 29, 2008, 10:48:35 PM »
Aw shucks.   :-[  Even if it doesn't get me the Community Writer position, I feel privileged to have written it in Heath's memory and had the most important audience--this forum--like it.
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Offline Marcos

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #238 on: February 04, 2008, 07:10:30 PM »
Way back on Christmas Eve, when we started this forum from the old Salon blog space, one of the original threads was called, "Will Brokeback rock the culture like Ellen?"

It had 300-some posts, and you can read them all here if you like: http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=24.0

But the question, now . . .

Did it? You can forget Ellen if you like, what we're concerned about is how much has it shaken things up? More or less than expected? How is it rippling out there? Is it still way too early to even see?

I really can´t tell whether that changed more our culture than in fact, changed mine...i remember it was a classical Rio´ summer damp and really hot afternoon... me and a dear friend,waiting on a long line for the tickets,pouring sweat all over and sipping on our beer cans,speculated of what it would be like.Me,an An Lee fan,expected nothing less than work of art;my friend just wanted to check out guys nudity...it felt like being hit by a bullet train and i walked out the theather with this feeling of a strong invisible hand crushing my heart in a potent grip,i could barely breath!My friend,on the other hand,seemed quite indiferent.As we chewed our burguers,i just couldn´t stop thinking about of what i had just watched...i no longer listened to anything my friend said,i only paid attention to my own thoughts.It was Carnival time and right after finishing with the burguers,we headed for Ipanema,the place to be on Carnival in Rio...lost in the middle of the crazy,colourful crowd my mind felt paralized and nothing but the film was whirling in there...since then i became a rather obsessed with this BBM thing and somehow i can´t let go on that!I´m writting here because only after two years i decide to gather courage to post it,so...its a dull,plain and silly story but it is mine.
Marcos Farias

Offline fritzkep

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Re: Did Brokeback Change our Culture?
« Reply #239 on: February 04, 2008, 07:39:34 PM »
Not silly in the least, but the reaction of someone who understood the story better than your friend, who did not see below the surface.

Welcome, Marcos! Bemvenido!

Werd ich zum Augenblicke sagen, "Verweile doch! Du bist so schön..."