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Author Topic: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain  (Read 697371 times)

Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2006, 08:32:51 AM »
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Was I an activist?  No, not in my thinking, if someone would have told me that, I would have denied it, it would have probably scared the dickens out of me. To me I was just helping, doing something that needed to be done.

Point?  Do what you think needs to be done, and you will be an activist without trying.

Doug

Very well said Doug. You're a good person. :) I also really enjoy reading the dialog between you and Vic. I learn a lot! It's like watching My Dinner With Andre. have either of you seen that movie?
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #136 on: July 03, 2006, 09:29:07 AM »
I also really enjoy reading the dialog between you and Vic. I learn a lot! It's like watching My Dinner With Andre. have either of you seen that movie?

Thanks. Not sure, from when was it? And what was it about?

Doug, you're getting me heated up about the RC Church now!
If I think of all the suffering they've caused over the centuries... unbelievable. Not to mention in my own family these past generations that I know of. For me, if they were ever to get into my good graces, they would all have to become beggar monks for the next thousand years. Maybe then, and only maybe, will I even be willing to consider anything they have to say as valid.

Vic
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2006, 09:59:40 AM »
Very well said Doug. You're a good person. :) I also really enjoy reading the dialog between you and Vic. I learn a lot! It's like watching My Dinner With Andre. have either of you seen that movie?

Thanks.

Nope, never even heard of that movie.  But then again, I have never been a big movie fan, with the exception of sci-fi.  Even that the last few years has waned in it's interest.  I saw "War of the Worlds" the  other day, it was not nearly as good as the original I thought, awful a lot of blood.  But then again, after BBM, all movies seem rather hollow.

Take Care,
Doug
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2006, 11:03:04 AM »
I also really enjoy reading the dialog between you and Vic. I learn a lot! It's like watching My Dinner With Andre. have either of you seen that movie?

Doug, you're getting me heated up about the RC Church now!
If I think of all the suffering they've caused over the centuries... unbelievable. Not to mention in my own family these past generations that I know of. For me, if they were ever to get into my good graces, they would all have to become beggar monks for the next thousand years. Maybe then, and only maybe, will I even be willing to consider anything they have to say as valid.

Naw, I do not think that you would consider validity based upon being a monk, not from what I have seen of you thus far.  I do not know what your family has done, if you want to talk about something I am here.

In my family, Mother was RC, when she left her parents came over and called my parents anything but white.  That us kids was being raised as heathen wild animals.  Funny, I still had to go to sunday school in the methodist church.  This was my first taste of religious thinking.

Then Sunday school was another strange experience for me. They told me I had a small door in my heart, someone was knocking at it, and I was to let him in.  This guy, a murdered dead guy from 2,000 years ago.  Yeah... riighttt...  My heart is a muscle that pumps blood, no little doors, thank you.   Then the easter bunny laid colored chicken eggs... and a murdered dead guy got up three days later and floated into the sky.  I still wonder what the hell they was smoking...  Santa Clause crashed and burned soon after as well.

I think I know what you mean, just think of all the alternative health benefits lost because they were too stupid to accept the results. Think of how much different our world would be now if they had not killed off most of the innovators, the people who could think, would we be enjoying a world of clean alternative energy, a world of loving health way into our 140's, a rational world of checks and balances between government, personal responsibilities, profits and planet health?  No way to know, but once the world was well on it's way to a rational world of just that, then the dark ages came, a world ruled by religion, by hateful manipulators.  It has taken centuries to repair the damage, and from the looks of things, we are once again on the brink of another dark age, due to the same cause. 

Things are being done and said now that just 10 years ago would have been unthinkable.  Preemptive war, based very little evidence is one.  The sacrificing of freedom to secure freedom is another.  When I saw the 911 families begging for more security, I thought "What they do not understand is the only way to make the security they are begging for is to become a police state."  The security they was begging for can only be provided if they are caged, everyone is caged, everything that touches them is known.  Sadly, we have people all too willing to provide just such security, it will only cost you everything you hold dear.

While you seem to separate out RCC, I see it much wider than that.  RCC was the main player in the past, these days we have a whole new set of cats.

Take Care,
Doug
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Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2006, 11:56:58 AM »
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While you seem to separate out RCC, I see it much wider than that.  RCC was the main player in the past, these days we have a whole new set of cats.



 You got that right! It's what I call those remote control Christians. They get their religious values from the likes of the Pat Robertson Show, Jerry Falwell and that Trinity Baptist Network. Those shows and networks were a piece of work during the elections spewing their anti gay hatred, pro life--pro war agenda. And their viewers just ate it up.
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2006, 12:14:25 PM »
Naw, I do not think that you would consider validity based upon being a monk, not from what I have seen of you thus far.

<lol> No, you're right. Hell and damnation is more my game. They know all about that, it should be good for them. Suffering is good for the soul, right? While I fade peacefully into non-existence.

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That us kids was being raised as heathen wild animals.

Mom's from devout Portuguese roman catholics, dad's a mix of German Calvinists and Java village healers. We were called heathens. Heathens? True believers, I'd say.

I hear you on the next two paragraphs!

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No way to know, but once the world was well on it's way to a rational world of just that, then the dark ages came, a world ruled by religion, by hateful manipulators.  It has taken centuries to repair the damage, and from the looks of things, we are once again on the brink of another dark age, due to the same cause.

Unfortunately not enough people see it this way. The masses don't care, they don't think further than their stomachs, dicks and wallets, and those in power know how to rally them.

Quote
Things are being done and said now that just 10 years ago would have been unthinkable.  Preemptive war, based very little evidence is one.  The sacrificing of freedom to secure freedom is another.  When I saw the 911 families begging for more security, I thought "What they do not understand is the only way to make the security they are begging for is to become a police state."  The security they was begging for can only be provided if they are caged, everyone is caged, everything that touches them is known.  Sadly, we have people all too willing to provide just such security, it will only cost you everything you hold dear.

I'm not American, though I lived and studied there and I have come to love many things American, and I don't know where your government is taking you, but I'm certainly no fan of the corrupt Eurocrats that are wielding power in Europe now but here's a quote from one of your founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin, with whom we both seem to agree:

"Any society that would give up
a little liberty to gain a
little security will deserve
neither and lose both.

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While you seem to separate out RCC, I see it much wider than that.  RCC was the main player in the past, these days we have a whole new set of cats.

The RCC is of course the group I/my family know most about. But I do see the wider picture, and I don't think they're new cats, just the new generation of the same old evil ones.

Vic
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 12:29:37 PM by Vic »
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #141 on: July 03, 2006, 12:35:07 PM »
You got that right! It's what I call those remote control Christians.

LOL Excellent term. Have to remember that!

Vic
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Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #142 on: July 03, 2006, 01:25:49 PM »
This article I'm providing a link for is what really makes me mad about the priorties of Congress! Thanks You Mr. & Mrs. Christian Right! Gas prices are bad, the war is floundering, etc. etc. etc. but let's take a look at a why a "christian" movie has a PG rating! >:(



http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/03/christian.movie.rating.ap/index.html
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #143 on: July 04, 2006, 11:33:27 AM »
While it's obvious I am not at all interested in the RC church or any other organized religion I do want to make it clear that I have no quarrel with anyone's belief. It's a subject I generally never bring up in conversation, like politics, because I know that people's beliefs and opinions differ tremendously, and I am a firm supporter of freedom of belief and speech. This, of course, doesn't mean I would forego such a discussion if someone else were to bring it up.  ;)

There is one group in particular that keeps rearing its head wherever I am and that is the Jehovah's Witness. It's really funny, but since I was a teenager, there has always been that knock on the door, that ring on the bell, and guess who is on my doorstep! Amazing when you consider they showed up in some of the remotest places I have been to. Now what's with that? Feels like I've got some kind of homing chip in me that they seem to track! Of course, the interaction is generally of the 1 minute duration.

Other than that, I can't say I've had any real trouble with any religious group lately, except for the occasional hell and damnation remark or some biblical quote about Sodom and Gomorrah when I confront them with homosexuality. When I was younger I would launch into a full debate but over the past years I have more control and just ignore them, walk away or tell them to piss off, whichever is more suitable to the moment, particularly enjoying the latter.

 :)
Vic
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Offline jasonwv

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #144 on: July 04, 2006, 05:22:08 PM »
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Other than that, I can't say I've had any real trouble with any religious group lately, except for the occasional hell and damnation remark or some biblical quote about Sodom and Gomorrah when I confront them with homosexuality. When I was younger I would launch into a full debate but over the past years I have more control and just ignore them, walk away or tell them to piss off, whichever is more suitable to the moment, particularly enjoying the latter

Hi Vic & Doug! I hope you both are enjoying the 4th! I want to comment on the above statement. I have trouble with the religious right. They have the freedom to practice religion how they want but they aredoing more than that. They are engaged in a calculating cultural war against who I am. They use Gay rights as a divisive issue in elections and they use it to rouse the ignorant against us. There are people who voted for Bush on the single issue of Gay Marriage. So , yeah I really have trouble  with that religious group. They want to deny me my rights and hate my very existence.
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #145 on: July 05, 2006, 04:41:06 AM »
Hi Jason,

I also have a problem with any  extreme right group, be it religious or political or both. What I don't have a problem with is anyone who practices their belief or religion in the way they see fit without forcing it on everyone else. This is still the largest group of people luckily. And all of my friends whom I love dearly are part of this group. (They wouldn't be my friends if they weren't.)

And yes, of course I fight against being discriminated. I am familiar with that throughout my life. Being of mixed heritage I was either not blonde enough or not dark enough. From a military family that moved around a lot, my father didn't believe in the schools at the base, we always had to attend local schools. So there too I have plenty of memories of being discriminated -- always the new kid on the block. Always being picked on, always having to defend myself. And as homosexuals we all know what discrimination tastes likes, it's nasty. So yeah, I can be very activist, when someone's out to get my goat! But I refuse to let it define me. I am more than that.

As I said before, I don't know where the current American government is going, but at least here in Europe, though I will never trust the Eurocrats in Brussels and Strasbourg, civil rights are being extended rather than curtailed. New EU laws will require ALL member nations to uphold the rights of homosexual men and women as equal rights. Countries like Poland and Slovakia have already filed protests because it is in conflict with their "Family Laws" but they face potential court action if they refuse to comply.

Belgium has just accepted a law that homosexual men and women, as well as singles have the right to adopt. Even Spain, a traditionalist religious country by far, has accepted gay marriages as legal and is extending them the same adoption rights as hetero parents. So there is progress here rather than regression.

I think the difference between the U.S. and Europe on these issues is our recent history with selective extermination, not only the (Jewish) holocaust of World War 2 but also the ethnic cleansing practices in the former Yugoslavia. I would like to believe we, as Europeans, have learned something from that. But there is still plenty of work to do here as well.

I certainly agree with you, we need to be aware of what is happening, and sometimes we need to make a stand. More so now in the U.S. than in Europe especially.

Vic
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #146 on: July 05, 2006, 08:10:58 AM »
This article I'm providing a link for is what really makes me mad about the priorties of Congress! Thanks You Mr. & Mrs. Christian Right! Gas prices are bad, the war is floundering, etc. etc. etc. but let's take a look at a why a "christian" movie has a PG rating! >:(



http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/03/christian.movie.rating.ap/index.html


Yep, they are having a fit.  I bet they would have the opposite fit if the religion was any other than their "non-violent" Christian faith, how would they react to Islam religion being portrayed? Oh my!  With some items like this I think they should GET their way only with a different religion than theirs.  Much like the thought Vic had, since they are so good at suffering, they should get it.

Doug
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #147 on: July 05, 2006, 09:06:16 AM »
While it's obvious I am not at all interested in the RC church or any other organized religion I do want to make it clear that I have no quarrel with anyone's belief. It's a subject I generally never bring up in conversation, like politics, because I know that people's beliefs and opinions differ tremendously, and I am a firm supporter of freedom of belief and speech. This, of course, doesn't mean I would forego such a discussion if someone else were to bring it up.  ;)

As you I rarely bring up either politics or religion in normal everyday life, mostly because I know that I am so diametrically opposite of most people on these subjects.  Experience has taught me that it is of little use to argue with these people. 

I want to make it clear I have no problems with people's beliefs, AS LONG AS they do not make laws, rules and social pressures to force their options upon innocent others.  But as Jason's link proves, they are all about forcing their stuff upon innocent others.

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There is one group in particular that keeps rearing its head wherever I am and that is the Jehovah's Witness. It's really funny, but since I was a teenager, there has always been that knock on the door, that ring on the bell, and guess who is on my doorstep! Amazing when you consider they showed up in some of the remotest places I have been to. Now what's with that? Feels like I've got some kind of homing chip in me that they seem to track! Of course, the interaction is generally of the 1 minute duration.

They must have a chip, they even show up here once or twice a year.  They always arrive in a car with at least 4 people in it, two stay in the car and two attack the house.  I have no idea how far they are driving in, I know of no home bases in the area.  They do not take "not interested" as an answer.  Most times now we see them coming, and do not answer the door.  The nerve of these people is beyond the pale.

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Other than that, I can't say I've had any real trouble with any religious group lately, except for the occasional hell and damnation remark or some biblical quote about Sodom and Gomorrah when I confront them with homosexuality.

And you do not call that trouble?  Seems like a real big problem to me, what other group has to endure such behavior?  Would they accept the same if one was to start calling them names?  No, I think not.  This is just the type of behavior that gets me upset.

Quote
When I was younger I would launch into a full debate but over the past years I have more control and just ignore them, walk away or tell them to piss off, whichever is more suitable to the moment, particularly enjoying the latter.

Tell them to piss off, bet that does get under their skin.  They deserve so much more than "piss off", they deserve a solid punch in their filthy mouths.  Yeah, I get hot when self righteous nuts think they can impose their bull shit upon innocent others.

Doug
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #148 on: July 05, 2006, 09:24:24 AM »
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Other than that, I can't say I've had any real trouble with any religious group lately, except for the occasional hell and damnation remark or some biblical quote about Sodom and Gomorrah when I confront them with homosexuality.
And you do not call that trouble?  Seems like a real big problem to me, what other group has to endure such behavior?  Would they accept the same if one was to start calling them names?  No, I think not.  This is just the type of behavior that gets me upset.

Sticks and stones, etc.

I like to tell them that either Jezus was gay, what with 12 guys on his ass all the time, or that he was married to Mary Magdalene (a whore by their own words)... they can take their pick. No trouble at all.

;D
Vic
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #149 on: July 05, 2006, 09:26:22 AM »
Hi Vic & Doug! I hope you both are enjoying the 4th!

I had a very nice July 4th, took the day off and enjoyed some family time. I hope you both had a very nice 4th as well.

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I want to comment on the above statement. I have trouble with the religious right. They have the freedom to practice religion how they want but they aredoing more than that. They are engaged in a calculating cultural war against who I am. They use Gay rights as a divisive issue in elections and they use it to rouse the ignorant against us. There are people who voted for Bush on the single issue of Gay Marriage. So , yeah I really have trouble  with that religious group. They want to deny me my rights and hate my very existence.

Exactly!  They are FAR from innocently just believing, they are ACTIVELY destroying other peoples freedoms.  They identify themselves as Christian, so I react to anyone who claims that same title, innocent or not.  In fact, most that identify with that term will vote, or at the very least do nothing, to stop the laws and rules these people will inflict on others, therefore are just a guilty as the active ones. IMHO.  Of course, this why I stayed off the Believers thread, I would be compelled to protect myself.  My hopes are they will wake themselves up enough to change, but I do not hold my breath.

Doug
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