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Author Topic: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain  (Read 701759 times)

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #180 on: July 10, 2006, 09:49:26 AM »
Here's a thought I had over the weekend while watching some of my favourite SF.

When we discover alien civilisations that also have a single omnipotent god as their main religion, will these Christians (and other religious zealots) accept this god as their god as well? Or, which I think is much more likely, will they instantly go to war with them because their god is the only one?


They will attack with everything they have, telling us that they envy our freedom, hate our god, and are evil.  Their usual mindless junk.

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They already have serious problems thinking of god as possibly female let alone accept her/him as some slimy 10-tentacled creature? They can't even love their neighbour who is human and gay. Forget about "love thy neighbour" when that neighbour turns out to be non-human.

Yep, not a chance.  Oh, there will be a few, but the majority will not tolerate them at all.

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For that matter, will they accept any god when that god reveals him/herself as simply a superior alien race that's been fiddling with humanity?

All the aliens have to do is look, and act the part, then with a wave of the hand they could take over the entire planet.  If they can not look and act the part, they will have a major fight on their hands.

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I think with what we already know of the universe today the whole concept of an omnipotent god is totally outdated anyway. And that would include any sons or prophets of him/her as well.

Yep, agree. 
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #181 on: July 10, 2006, 10:04:17 AM »
Folks, Doug mentioned Sci Fi in an earlier post, and Vic wondered how Earthlings would treat aliens at first contact. What did you both think of Deep Space Nine, with all its religious themes? Sisko as a Prophet and all. Sure is a long way from the original Trek, which only mentioned religion a couple of times during its run, and The Next Generation which seemed to be, at times, way agnostic.

Was DS9 an abberation or an advance? Posters on the Sci Fi thread seemed to like it's more dark nature, and the religious nature, too.

I am all for it.  The more we are exposed to different religions, even imagined religions, the more easy it is to see that all of them are mind made.    I would like to see some them coming to the understanding that they are being lied to a little more often , but be that as it may...  I really like Star Wars for "the force" religion, it was easy to understand, that the force did not care who or how it was used, it just was.

This is why I really think there should be religion in schools, but not in the place of science, but in a mandatory religion study class that goes through the myths of say the top ten religions, compares them, contrasts them, and exposes them as the myths they are.  Educates people about how these different people believe, and perhaps gives them more chance to see them as human beings rather than a religion.  It is good for people to see that the Aboriginal origin story of god hatching from a cosmic egg, what laid the egg we will never know, that man came from a boil on his leg is just as valid as one they hold so dear. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2006, 01:39:21 PM by Doug2017 »
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #182 on: July 10, 2006, 10:25:49 AM »
Opps... a couple of posts back I was mentioning Star Trek: The Next Generation and I mentioned that Next Generation was often agnostic. What I meant to say is that the crew of the Enterprise seemed to be secular humanists, which religious conservatives seem to despise about as much as atheists. Me, I think secular humanism is our only chance if we're to get to the stars without blowing ourselves up in a war....probably caused by some extreme religious zealot. I think of agnosticism and secular humanism as a continuum, at least at this point in history.

In any case, the question stands: DS9, the wrong road or....?

I guess this is where someone is going to have to enlighten me. Secular Humanists, what are they?  I was on a secular humanist forum once, it was in the process of being invaded by religious nuts, but I was having a really hard time telling them apart.  It seemed like they both where given to illusions of mysticism?  Or was I just on a mixed up forum? 

After looking up "secular humanist", it seems I could be one???   Hmmm....  No doubt the religious nuts will hate them with a passion, if what I just read is correct.

DS9, not the right road or the wrong road, just a road, it is sci-fi after all. 
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #183 on: July 10, 2006, 11:11:14 AM »
y'all have to see this.  its real.



this may explain the previous post above.

jack

You mean this one? Yes, I find it quite disturbing.
If you want it out of your thread, Doug, just let me know and..... Zzzzaaapp.

;D
Vic

No, I do not want anything keep out of this thread, except that which is against the general rules of this forum. 

This, like so much, is the rewriting of history.  They will convince others that this is how the statue of liberty was meant to be, and those damn god haters got them to change it to the torch.  Just you wait and see. 

They have already rewrote much of our history.  People actually believe that this nation was founded a democratic christian nation, it was founded a non-religious republic. Already people believe that "In God we Trust" is what the founding fathers wanted on our currency, it was E Pluribus Unum, "from many one".  Already people believe that the founding fathers were all highly religious, and that is what they created this nation from, religious tenents, but in fact many were deists, evangelical did not exist at all, deist is more of a naturalist religion, god in their view had long since left the arena.    The tenents they used was freedom of the individual, freedom from state and church, freedom and protection from authority was the main thrust.

If they want a statue like this I have no problem as long as it is not on public land, in the public square, this belongs in a church courtyard, or such.  Of course, their whole point is to have it in the public's face.  Since that is the case, I have a proposal, let them have their statue, but then they can not complain when the Buddhas, the American Indians, the Hindu, the Jewish, the atheist, etc. also want to put their versions of the statue of liberty in the same park.  I think there should be a group whose purpose it is to do just such things. 

When Judge Moore put up his religious stand in the main hall of the court house, I think someone should have walked in, measured it, then had at least ten more made with different religions on them, and backed a truck up, and filled that court house with them. When they sue to have the others removed, they will be hard pressed to justify their one.  Just a thought. 
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #184 on: July 10, 2006, 12:01:59 PM »
Doug, I can't help but admire your single-minded consistency. Even when you talk about something else, you bring your point across most clearly. Thanks for that.

:)

And you're right, of course. No matter how or what you present the zealous with, no matter how logical, how creative, how sensible, how obvious, they will always come up with the same answer, namely, that their version is the only true one. And everyone else's is blasphemy and thus wrong.

That reminds me of someone I fired once. I had a creative assistant with whom I got along fine, we worked well together, even had fun, except that she had the bad habit to bring everything into religious context, which, quite frankly, bugged the hell out of me. But okay, let's be professionals here, I thought, as long as you do the work, you can believe what you like, just don't preach too much. And she didn't.

However, one day I had had enough, the proverbial drop that made the bucket overflow, so to speak. As an avid dinosaur enthusiast I came into work one day and quite happily told her how they had discovered the remains of a giant dinosaur, T-Rex type, etc. and so forth. Half way through my telling, she interrupted me and said: "But that's not possible." So I asked why not. "God created the earth and everything 6000 years ago," she answered, "so he only made it look like these bones were millions of years old. They weren't really that old."

...

After a memo to my superiors I fired her the same day. Not because I didn't agree with her, not because I couldn't let her have her belief. I fired her because of her mental rigidity, her inability to even consider thinking beyond the little box she had put herself into. And I knew then that somewhere down the line, in a creative field especially, she would become a liability rather than an asset to me. So I took action.

Problem is, you can't convert these people. I think you and me and other people here are willing to consider other possibilities, willing to realize that we may be wrong if provided with enough proof. People like her cannot be changed because change would force her to have to re-examine her motives, her self worth and all that.

If I learned anything about religion it is that is often used as a shield against "the big bad world" rather than a mirror to the self. And no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change them. They can't cope with change on any level. And for that inability the rest of us have to pay.

Like you mentioned before, one can be an activist and not know it. Count me in.

;)
Vic
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Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #185 on: July 10, 2006, 01:36:02 PM »
Doug, I can't help but admire your single-minded consistency. Even when you talk about something else, you bring your point across most clearly. Thanks for that.

:)

LOL!  Yeah, call it a character flaw...  I guess it is that way for me, because I see the interconnections everywhere, and it bugs me that others do not.  I will try to do better...  I absolutely know there is more to life than worrying about all this.


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And you're right, of course. No matter how or what you present the zealous with, no matter how logical, how creative, how sensible, how obvious, they will always come up with the same answer, namely, that their version is the only true one. And everyone else's is blasphemy and thus wrong.

Sure looks that way to me.  My experiences confirm that conclusion as well. 

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That reminds me of someone I fired once. I had a creative assistant with whom I got along fine, we worked well together, even had fun, except that she had the bad habit to bring everything into religious context, which, quite frankly, bugged the hell out of me. But okay, let's be professionals here, I thought, as long as you do the work, you can believe what you like, just don't preach too much. And she didn't.

However, one day I had had enough, the proverbial drop that made the bucket overflow, so to speak. As an avid dinosaur enthusiast I came into work one day and quite happily told her how they had discovered the remains of a giant dinosaur, T-Rex type, etc. and so forth. Half way through my telling, she interrupted me and said: "But that's not possible." So I asked why not. "God created the earth and everything 6000 years ago," she answered, "so he only made it look like these bones were millions of years old. They weren't really that old."

Aaaaaaggghhhhh!!  <Doug pulling what little hair he has left on his head.>   One has to wonder why God would bother with such a deception? I mean he went all out to get the radioactive dating to work out, the sedimentary layering perfect, the progression of the bone structures perfect, the logic is also perfect, yet he can not get the most important story of all, his resurrection right, nor even how many times and where each apostle died, and the logic... well...   He must have REALLY wanted to fool many poor souls into the lake of fire with his false evidence, sounds like such a nice loving welcoming god... 

Just think how different this would all be if this "false evidence" was not here.  Since it is, and if one accepts the premise of this god, then the great effort put into manufacturing this "false evidence" has to be a test, a test to see if one can think or not, those that think, use validated evidence, they are evil and are to be thrown into the lake of fire.  Remember it was from eating from the tree of knowledge in the first place that placed original sin on us all.  Such a nice loving god...

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...

After a memo to my superiors I fired her the same day. Not because I didn't agree with her, not because I couldn't let her have her belief. I fired her because of her mental rigidity, her inability to even consider thinking beyond the little box she had put herself into. And I knew then that somewhere down the line, in a creative field especially, she would become a liability rather than an asset to me. So I took action.

I am glad you was able to, I am not so sure one could in the current environment here. 

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Problem is, you can't convert these people. I think you and me and other people here are willing to consider other possibilities, willing to realize that we may be wrong if provided with enough proof. People like her cannot be changed because change would force her to have to re-examine her motives, her self worth and all that.

Quite so, I would convert in a single set down conversation with Jesus/god/allah, just after he proves he is who he says he is, and convinces me that he is worthy of my worship, fear is not going to do it.  I loath fear being used as a weapon.  He would have to satisfactorily explain why the evil I see all around, exists, especially from those who represent him.

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If I learned anything about religion it is that is often used as a shield against "the big bad world" rather than a mirror to the self. And no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change them. They can't cope with change on any level. And for that inability the rest of us have to pay.

Actually they pay as well, with the loss of their loved ones in war, with loss of greater life, and a life free of oppression.  But the brunt is the poor SOB that gets scapegoated as the "cause".  The really sad thing is "the big bad world" is an illusion, created to manipulate them, and fleece them as the sheeple they are.  "The big bad world" does not exist, it is only a few bad people able to get the support of the majority of good people by manipulation.  Where would that little monster in North Korea be if the people did not support him, even as he murders them and starves them? 

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Like you mentioned before, one can be an activist and not know it. Count me in.

Lets see Vic, is one, counted.

Doug
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #186 on: July 11, 2006, 04:08:19 AM »
LOL!  Yeah, call it a character flaw...  I guess it is that way for me, because I see the interconnections everywhere, and it bugs me that others do not.  I will try to do better...  I absolutely know there is more to life than worrying about all this.

I don't believe in character flaws, just characters. :)

I'm also quite sure you know how to enjoy life and that you do more than worry about religious zealots, even when it's clearly important to you.

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One has to wonder why God would bother with such a deception? I mean he went all out to get the radioactive dating to work out, the sedimentary layering perfect, the progression of the bone structures perfect, the logic is also perfect, yet he can not get the most important story of all, his resurrection right, nor even how many times and where each apostle died, and the logic... well...   

Just think how different this would all be if this "false evidence" was not here.  Since it is, and if one accepts the premise of this god, then the great effort put into manufacturing this "false evidence" has to be a test, a test to see if one can think or not, those that think, use validated evidence, they are evil and are to be thrown into the lake of fire.  Remember it was from eating from the tree of knowledge in the first place that placed original sin on us all.  Such a nice loving god...

That more or less sums up the ... I had with her! You don't really think I'd let her go without saying a word or 2(000)?
;D

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But the brunt is the poor SOB that gets scapegoated as the "cause".  The really sad thing is "the big bad world" is an illusion, created to manipulate them, and fleece them as the sheeple they are.  "The big bad world" does not exist, it is only a few bad people able to get the support of the majority of good people by manipulation.  Where would that little monster in North Korea be if the people did not support him, even as he murders them and starves them?

Which is why "I only followed orders" was not accepted as viable excuse during the Nazi trials. We ALL have to account for our actions sooner or later. And I mean in this life, not the next!

As far as I am concerned heaven is very sparsely populated as zealots would be the first to be cast into hell, IMHO, followed by their hypocritical sheep.

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Like you mentioned before, one can be an activist and not know it. Count me in.

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Lets see Vic, is one, counted.
Doug

I've certainly been known to be on 'missions'. <trying to remember where I buried my hatchet>

 ;D >:(
Vic

« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 04:18:48 AM by Vic »
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Offline All4one

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #187 on: July 14, 2006, 01:25:42 PM »
" We all have to account for our actions sooner or later. And I mean in this life, not the next!" ( Vic)

Well, here's the thing: not all do pay for their actions in this life.
Maybe that's why some cling so fervently to the hope for an afterlife - that little voice inside us that
calls out "not fair!!"

"One's enough"  A.P.

Gonzo

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #188 on: July 15, 2006, 04:36:55 PM »
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11435.0

Hey Nonbelievers, I have a proposal that might be just up your alleys.  ;)  Follow the link up to a thread I started today.  It's called "Eye on the Religious Right" and it is a review of daily emails of Focus on the Family, Moral Majority (yeah, right), Christian Coalition and Traditional Values Coalition.  Check it out and see if you're interested.  Thanks.

Offline Doug2017

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #189 on: July 15, 2006, 08:32:00 PM »
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11435.0

Hey Nonbelievers, I have a proposal that might be just up your alleys.  ;)  Follow the link up to a thread I started today.  It's called "Eye on the Religious Right" and it is a review of daily emails of Focus on the Family, Moral Majority (yeah, right), Christian Coalition and Traditional Values Coalition.  Check it out and see if you're interested.  Thanks.

I am interested, however, NOT talking about religion on a thread named "Eye on the Religious Right" is a very tall order. IMHO.  I will do my best, if that turns out to not be good enough then say so and I will leave that thread.

Doug
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Gonzo

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #190 on: July 15, 2006, 09:20:20 PM »
My take is that it's about the political behavior of the Religious Right.  Their political actions, not their beliefs.  Invariably, we'll probably stray because actions stem directly from belief, but if we could keep it down some that would be good.  We'll give it a try, see if it's doable.

Gonzo

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #191 on: July 15, 2006, 09:24:51 PM »
P.S. When you read my post you will see that we can include any none religious groups that are perceived hostile by forum members.  NRA might be an example of a non-religious group.  So maybe if there is enough interest it could expand to be a general call-for-action thread.

Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #192 on: July 16, 2006, 05:34:03 AM »
" We all have to account for our actions sooner or later. And I mean in this life, not the next!" ( Vic)

Well, here's the thing: not all do pay for their actions in this life.
Maybe that's why some cling so fervently to the hope for an afterlife - that little voice inside us that
calls out "not fair!!"

Since I don't believe in an after life, I do believe that we reap what we sow in this one, and that goes for all the people that made life difficult or a hell [for me]. I don't want to go too much into clichés but 'what goes around comes around'.  That zealots live a life of condemning and hurting others only to repent on their deathbeds in the hope that this will get them into heaven anyway, is a non-starter for me. And if there were a god, I doubt very much he would accept it as well. Like I said, heaven must be very sparsely populated.

For this same reason I find the idea of incarnation more interesting (though I don't believe in that either). At least here you automatically pay for your past life actions by coming back in a lower life (form) rather than moving up.

I do understand why people want an afterlife, the thought of not existing anymore in any form is simply too much for most to handle because it also means that we are nothing, really, but motes of cosmic dust, which is exactly what I do believe in. :)

Vic
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Offline Vic

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #193 on: July 16, 2006, 05:39:49 AM »
http://davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=11435.0

Hey Nonbelievers, I have a proposal that might be just up your alleys.  ;)  Follow the link up to a thread I started today.  It's called "Eye on the Religious Right" and it is a review of daily emails of Focus on the Family, Moral Majority (yeah, right), Christian Coalition and Traditional Values Coalition.  Check it out and see if you're interested.  Thanks.

Interesting idea. I will look in and see how it goes, and help out when possible. No promises. But I won't subscribe to any of their newsletters, sorry. Got enough junk in my mailbox(es) already without adding to it with religious cr*p.

 ;)
Vic
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Offline cherry

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Re: Non believers who love Brokeback Mountain
« Reply #194 on: July 16, 2006, 10:00:55 AM »
I'm checking my email real quick and I haven't had time to read the entire post.  I just want to say thanks for having the bravery to start this thread.  I will read it later and rest assured I will visit this thread often.  Thanks.

Hahaha! Me brave?  Not really, just I really wanted to talk to people who actually make sense to me.  And my thought was that if we can create a nice thread that believers can read, maybe, just maybe we can all understand each other a little bit better.

I look forward to hearing from you.


You have to be brave in the US to say you're a non-believer?  I said it on another thread and I'll say it here - my heart bleeds. It honestly scares the poop out of me.   
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